help with a difficult horse- also in NL

Mine with spavin is a total tw*t in the stable, if you have been asked to do something that you hate by people for years perhaps you wouldn't be pleased to see them either? You can say he only does it then or when I do this but the bottom line is you have asked on here because you feel you have tried everything and the horse is still very unhappy. I can't imagine you get much from riding something so unwilling and it sounds like he gets nothing from it so if he were mine I'd be calling it a day. I said it would be an unpopular answer but felt I had to post as I feel the horse is telling you he does not want to be ridden. It has been a continual problem and the fact that he "forgets" at competitions to me again indicates pain.
I could continue with my well bred show jumping gelding, by the sounds of things he was much easier than your boy to ride( but worse in the box where he has drawn blood on numerous occasions) but even if he was only bad 50% of the time I wouldn't have continued. His behaviour didn't scare me in the least and I loved competing him he was a true dc horse but he is a horse first and when riding became against his wishes we stopped and I haven't regretted it for a second.
 
charlie76 said:
if he was easy and sweet on the ground then I would def be looking at pain however he is not, he is demanding and rude. If you are not paying him attention he scrapes the floor or kicks the door. If you are in the stable and you ask him move over he will pull a face or lift a leg at you. if you are touching him, trimming him, clipping him he is very sweet, the second you stop and walk away he goes to bite you.
When ridden, he can go for 20 mins or so with no issues as long as he is going his way. Take last night for example, 2 canter poles- 6 strides apart- cantered down at the speed he wanted and was fine. Instructor asked rider to put in 7 so rider had to use a bit more leg and hand, horse got half way between poles and stood up. Came round again next time at his speed, fine again.
hacking out, trotting nicely up a hill, gets a bit onward- rider asks him to just slow down a little, he chucks his head and throws a strop.Trot up the next hill- totally fine??!!??
If there was a trigger it would be easy to work with but there isn't!
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Still feel it could be pain related in the poll/cruciate ligament/head,teeth,gums,jaw area? obviously causes a problem when he is asked to slow/half halt using the hand (even a little), therefore throwing his head up, even trapped nerve when head/neck is allowed or thrown up? when in his stable this could also be causing low grade almost constant pain, making him miserble/crabby all the time, but to a lesser degree than when ridden.

Therefore if you are willing to try other things I would agree with other posters and try bowen etc and possibly dentist again just to double check right up in the very very back of the jaw.
 
I will 3rd the behaviourist and ac then, sometimes it is good to have someone not directly involved with him working with him. I really hope you get to the bottom of whatever is causing these issues and great job for sticking with him:)
 
Richard maxwell is worth a try - he would be totally straight with you if he thought not worth continuing.
Have you had several opinions on saddle/teeth etc? Sure you have.
Does sound more mouth related than back to me. Or something more menTal than physical.
 
sounds EXACTLY like my mare, after seriously considering having her put down due to the exact behaviour u mention (plus removing part of my mums finger!) i had her scoped a couple of weeks ago for ulcers, is on gastrogard and hasnt looked back (still sharp but not as lethal! :D )

BUT, and my point is, the ulcers were very nearly MISSED!! as they are pyloric ulcers and not in the body of the stomach. so i wouldnt have known if it wasnt for a couple of very determined vets who kept trying for me. and the ulcers werent even that bad to look at!

if you can afford it i would try a week on gastrogard anyway. my mare improved within 48hours massively.

just a thought. i know how infuriating and upsetting it is to be so desperate to find an answer, its horrid!
 
Out of interest have you buted him for a week? I would probably give that a shot as a cheap method and if behaviour does not change then you look into something different and can pretty much totally rule out pain.

Have you asked in breeding if similar bloodlines are as tricky? I think we all know that Shutterfly is not walk in the park but ultimately he performs so all the rest of his pecadillos are ignored!
 
I'm really sory for both you and the horse - it doesn't sound much like fun.

You say you've had him xrayed but those are only helpful if you happen to xray the area with a problem. Has he had a scintigraphy which will identify issues anywhere in his body and give you an idea where to focus on if there is a physical problem. I would definitely be doing this asap as a diagnositic tool as it does sound as though he has physical issues, or at least there is some likelihood of them.

We had a client's horse who had similar ridden issues and their vet couldn't find anything. He referred the horse for a scintigraphy which showed OCD in her stifles and without that being done they would never have known.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.
 
If you have had all these checks done then maybe it is just a behavioural problem. Also I wouldn't worry about 24/7 turn out I tried this last summer when my holstein became ridiculous and it didn't make a blind bit of difference to his attitude.
Unfortunately for whatever reason some horses are just really tricky/ naughty, if he is fine in draw reins why don't you just continue (not usually a fan but whatever works).
From what you said about him mostly hacking as a young horse it seems this has always been there and he may just be a really dominant character.
 
ecrozier said:
Richard maxwell is worth a try - he would be totally straight with you if he thought not worth continuing.
Have you had several opinions on saddle/teeth etc? Sure you have.
Does sound more mouth related than back to me. Or something more menTal than physical.
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Ditto Richard Maxwell, not cheap but well worth it imo.
 
HI, you have done a teriffic job keeping at it for 3 years, I respect that. I was having problems with a mare I`ve got with her seasons and we had scans etc to find nothing. I then was told about a person on the internet who sells indian (cowboys and indians) ancient herbs for all sorts of stuff. I was intrigued and e-mailed a picture of my horse with basic details. He came up with thyroid issues!!! But this did make a big difference to my mare to which I am really grateful. And she is still great, 18 months on. He charges nothing to `read` your picture and then it is up to you to decide if you want the supplements that he suggests or go down another route. I would really recommend that you send him a photo and see what he comes up with. My other horse was really sensitive to everything and he found she had a liver/kidney issue. SHe is much better now too. If you are interested, as I`m sure it would be worth it, as you have tried everything else, then please PM me for his details. (I dont want everyone to think that I am advertising) lol. Its worth a shot. Whatever you decide, good luck with him. x
 
As you seem to have ruled out all physical causes, this has to be behavioural.

You mention that he was difficult to back so mostly hacked out by his previous owner and to me all of the behaviour sounds like he's very dominant and as issues from being allowed to get his own way all the time as a youngster and that he's behaving like a spoilt brat every time things don't go his way.

However I wouldn't rule out something in his mouth, jaw or poll from the issues you mention.

I would recommend getting in contact with Richard Maxwell. It's probably also worth doing a bute trial.

My new boy (also recently diagnosed with spavins, although I don't think this is relevant), was labelled dangerous by a very well known behaviourist, ended up with six homes in as many weeks due to his bad behaviour on the ground (I'm lucky he's an absolute angel to ride).

After doing some digging into his past I found out that he had been starved and left without water whilst locked in a shed as a yearling and had also been physically abused. He's very, very insecure but also very spoilt and demanding.

I'm lucky in that I've been able to manage his behavioural issues fairly easily because of where I keep him and all his good points now overshadow the bad behaviour.

I'm by no means an expert but I can really see the parallels between your horse and my own.
 
Someone mentioned a horse communicator, and I must admit, I used to think they were cranks. However, someone I know called one in to see his mare, I can't remember her name, but apparently she sees some of the Royal Family's horses. Anyway, she turned up knowing nothing about his horses and pointed to one of his geldings, saying she wanted to see that one, as he was telling her something. She then told the owner things that had happened, which only he and the horse could know, and not general things that happen to everyone either. She also told him where the horse was in pain. He had it checked out by the vet and she was right.

Might be worth a go! As others have said, you seem to have tried everthing else!
 
tabithakat64- I do believe that is a large part of the problem, in his first few years of his life he tried it on and has continued to, is like he has a form of attention disorder!
 
Does he do it out hacking? I know of somebody who had a horse competing at 3* that he couldnt get her in the school so 'schooled' her out hacking!
have you tried him living out day and night aswel? Iv seen that cure alot of problems
also I know you've tried similar things but i really rate the protexin supplements, they are £10 for a months supply and I would give it three months before giving up. i had a horse that wouldnt settle at competitions and he was a much, much improved on this, you can also get a shot of five days intensive which gets them on the right track quicker when you start it.
good luck :)
 
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measles said:
I'm really sory for both you and the horse - it doesn't sound much like fun.

You say you've had him xrayed but those are only helpful if you happen to xray the area with a problem. Has he had a scintigraphy which will identify issues anywhere in his body and give you an idea where to focus on if there is a physical problem. I would definitely be doing this asap as a diagnositic tool as it does sound as though he has physical issues, or at least there is some likelihood of them.


Good luck - let us know how you get on.
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Agree with this. I would have scintigraphy too if you havent done so already. O'Gormans can do it. There is another vets in Lambourn who can do it too. Not cheap but it may help identify the problem if there is one.
 
It could be starch or sugar intolerance. That would be a cheaper thing to eliminate as a possibility first. It could be a reason for some of the behaviour.

The dengie site has some info about feeding for horses with intolerances. Simple systems mught help too.

But it may be a combination of things.
 
I can highly recommend Jason Webb.

The way he works with horses is quite unique but it makes a lot of sense to the horse. He is also very good at teaching the owner what works too.

He really is a world class horseman.
 
you could put him on the box for a couple of months to see how he is? its weird, and cant really be explained but it does work for most!! i have a quirky pony, who when loaned to a friend, who had land etc and no other horses he turned into a lovely pony. her boyfriend got a horse and overnight he reverted to being a grumpy unobliging beast .. but always good to ride. maybe yours would like to be an only pony or away from the others tho this doesnt solve the riding issues. he obvs is talented as your competition results belie the frustrations at home. good luck.
 
As it seems like you've eliminated pain etc sounds like he's just a bit of an arse for whatever reason. I've no solutions to offer other than those others have suggested.
Are you asking now because he's got worse or because you've had enough? it seems like you are managing him can you not just continue as you are? If he's reasonably established and working well at comps I'd just live with what you can get from him at home, ride in draw reins or lunge, go to local unaff stuff to school round HC. Some of the pro horses I've worked with have had similar issues quite likely to try and kill you at home but super talented and shine at a comp, that's why they ended up on a pro yard.
 
Haven't read all replies so sorry if I am repeating anybody, have you tried thermal imaging? might come up with some 'hot spots' that can then be further investigated, also there is an interesting article in March Eventing mag on craniosacral therapy, have been trying this on one of ours who lives off his nerves, does seem to be helping. Wouldn't rule out an animal communicator either.

Well done for carrying on for three years, you must think he is worth it, good luck hope you can get to the bottom of his behaviour.
 
Charlie - are you in Yorkshire?

It might be worth giving this lady a call - she has studied lots of different NH techniques (for want of a better phrase) and is very good at turning around 'problem' horses. Her daughter competes up to Novice on a pony that was previously unrideable. She's very nice and might be worth a lesson with her to see what you think. She's based in Harewood

http://www.saraussher.co.uk/
 
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