Help with a strong horse

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I have a new horse on loan for the summer, as my little mare is lame :(, and we're having a few issues. I think most of the problems stem from the fact that he's a mans horse and i'm a female and not a particularly strong one.
Anyway so one of our biggest problems is that I have absolutely no brakes! I originally wanted to go down the less is more route as I really am not a fan of riding in big strong bits, especially not all the time. So I've been schooling him in a snaffle but to be totally honest he's bordering on the line of dangerous in it. As he knows I have no control in it he goes into spooky mode and takes off with me constantly.
So he came to me in a dutch gag which I used on the ring below the big ring and find he's ok in this in the school and doesn't take off with me as he knows I have a little bit of control. But when I jump I may aswell have a snaffle in.
As I was off cross country I thought it best to have a little play and so tried him in a pelham, which he hated and I removed straight away. I then tried him in a kimblewick (sp?) which he seemed to like. Took him cross country and had a fab time but had 0 brakes. Persevered and carried on using it anyway but I just have nothing with him in it and the curb was starting to rub him.
So now I'm at a loss of what to do, let me reasure you i'm not after a quick fix - although I only have him for the summer so obviously it will be an on going process of just trying to get him to calm a little. And I'm putting in all of the schooling time as well as mixing it up with hacking. I'm doing lots of pole work, transitions, work to build up his muscles etc. I also have weekly show jumping practise so he is having a varied work life. However I just need us to be safe and currently we aren't. He's not an easy horse to ride and everyone thinks i'm mad and they all tell me they wouldn't get on him but when he goes well he's fab.
We're definitely starting to bond now, in the month and a half or maybe a little longer that i've had him he has changed massively. He's gone from the horse I couldn't get near in the field let alone catch to the horse that follows me, comes to call and practically begs to come him. He's improved on the ground so much but he's just a different horse when I get on. Although I have managed to ride him out alone in the farm fields which is a big improvement.
Also he's had everything done/checked; so teeth done, back done, feet done, saddle checked.
Sorry it got a bit long but I would really appreciate any help and just wanted to try and give a clear image of what i'm dealing with.

Thanks.
 
Have you tried a hackamore? I have no experience with them but a friend had a horse with no brakes & similar issues to those you are having, tried a hackamore and has had great results.
 
A hackamore was actually something that I have been considering, I sometimes ride my mare mare it one and she goes really nicely in it altough she's not strong anyway. My only worry was that I think the reason he didn't like the pelham could be something to do with pressure. Which is why i'm a bit concerned about using the hackamore in case he doesn't like the pressure.
Although I'm not allowed to use a hackamore for pony club so even if it did work I need to to find a bit that also works.

Thanks for the suggestion though and it's definately something I'll try when he's in a good mood and I think it's safe to do so.
 
He sounds just like mine when I got him! Do sympathise as it's so bloody unnerving when you know they know if they really want to, they can just totally give you the bird and p|ss off!

What breed/build is he? Is he young? Mine is Suffolk x so he would get on his forehand and could barely even stop himself then. Also I wouldn't think necessarily a man could hold him - mine took off with a male ex instructor (twice) years ago, and my jockey ex. Neither was a weakling by a long way but both said the same thing - jesus when that goes there is just no stopping it is there?!

I don't have any really good advice cos I only fixed it with years, and years, of schooling to get the right mucles going and now I have one of those fab things, a light heavy :) if ya get me! And you are on a time limit with him. You can still improve him significantly though.

Also to say, when mine was like that it did not matter one jot what you put in his gob. He ran through pelhams, waterfords, gags, you name it, someone loaned it to me. Result was always the same, like having tissue paper in his gob.

He sounds nice and like you have bonded well with him, got any pics?? xx
 
You're right it is unnerving, he's already had me off once which was a result of him taking off and rapping me round a jump wing - horses are so nice :)
Umm breed wise i'm not sure, he's from ireland and his job is hunting and that's all he's ever done. So i'd say possibly an Irish TB but he's got plenty of bone so would probably be classed as a MW horse. He's problably somewhere between 10 and 12 but i've never seen his passport. And it's funny you say that about a man holding him because to the best of my knowledge he's a saint for the man who rides him and he never needs to hold him because he's not too strong. Out hunting he comes into huge hedges in a nice calm collected canter and he jumps beautifully. Whereas with me he goes up a gear when he sees the jump, a few strides out he goes up another gear and then in the air he goes up a further gear and by the time we land he's gone!
And I know what you mean I don't think I'll ever be able to hold him no matter what he has in his mouth but it would just be nice to know that if I really needed to stop I could. It's unfortunate that all of my schooling and hard work will be undone when he goes back to hunting so I'm not going to get to change him too much. But having said that he's so good for his owner it won't matter anyway.
And umm I may have a picture somewhere i'll have a look.
 
Why did you take the contenental off, you say he behaves better in it as he knows you have more control. You could always try it with the reins on the bottom hole for jumping, I'd def put it back on.

If your being kind to him and want to school you could try the contenental with 2 reins, one on the big ring and just ride him off that and use the second set of reins when needed to remind him he's wearing the contenental.

Have you tried different mouthpieces in the other bits, french link, mullen mouth and jointed??
 
I took the dutch gag off him because I have no control in it jumping, this is because when he puts his head up and I have hold of his reins it's bascially a snaffle and I can't stear in it because of the way it sits when I have a contact and he has his head up. I wouldn't ride him in it solely in one rein on the bottom ring as i don't believe that's right (I know it's doable but I just feel a bit mean) and I doubt the PC would allow it. However I have considered riding him in it with two reins but as I have no stearing or control in it when jumping I don't honestly think it would help. Although I can see why you suggested it and it's something I've already considered but I just am not sure it would help. Although am willing to try it, obviously, so will give it a go if I find no other solution.
As for mouth pieces i've tried straight bars, straight bars with raised sections (can't think what they're called), single jointed and french link. So yes I've tried a few but I don't think they make much difference. He loves to be difficult :)
 
Ah I see TS. To be honest if his main job is hunting, and sounds like he does that impeccably, then owner should really just give it the summer off! Good luck with him mate and be careful, some of the scrapes we got into I just bloody shudder when I think about them, so I don't lol!!! xx
 
He has had time off since the end of the hunting season, however people who hunt are now starting to get their horses back in and get them fit again anyway so he needs to be ridden. It's just that his owner can't currently ride him so i've been riding him instead, which he would have been doing by now anyway. So don't worry he's had a good rest not just come straight off the huinting field.
And I can imagine but it's lovely to know that you got there in the end, it must feel great. So well done to you, I just wish I had more time to make a similar difference (allthough not sure I'd be able to).
 
:eek: I know how you feel hun - been there and done that :D

I took on my beastie and he had practically scared every person on my yard including YO who rode him - he bronched and charged everywhere - even on the floor - no manners!
I got the manners on the floor but then i had to start riding him....
He was ridden in a variety of snaffles and pelhams for showing - neither did anything to stop him spooking, possibly spinning and then proceeding to charge round the school with me with his nose centimetres from the floor!
I spent months being tanked round with, trying different bits etc

You mentioned that you had taken him in the field? How did it go? What did you do?
The final thing that got me and my beastie together and people can slate me all they want but i know him and the situation....is i took him into an unknown field - on his own - and everytime he said no i said "go!"...that included if he spooked - i didn't care aslong as he went forward from my leg...this then gave me direction as he brought his head up...

It took a couple of laps and zig zagging across the field but eventually he got it....he gave me respect :p
I then had a good look at his bit - he has a big tongue so putting in a jointed bit would only make him worse - he settled in the kimblewick with the reins on the bottom link....
You may have to go stronger....not saying it will work but it did make my beastie stop and think hey ok you're kinda fun and it doesn't matter what i do i still have to work..
It did take a lot of courage tho - i was shaking and everything but the feeling and the way beastie was afterwards made it worth while...

Once id done this i went back to a varied routine with really soft hands and asked patiently for what i wanted...
Keep us updated :)
 
That sounds interesting, it's funny because I actually think he's worse in the menege than he is in the field. Possibly because he's never really ben in the school that much before I had him. I would school him in the field if i could but the ground is way to hard.
When I rode him in the field alone I just treated it as a hack and changed the rein a few times etc but I didn't do too much like circles etc as the ground is too hard. He did try to take off with me in trot a little bit but at this point i could just about stop him if he wanted to go (in the kimblewick but unfortunately he's gotten used to it and it's no longer effective), which meant a lot of flying sideways etc but he did understand he couldn't just run off forward with me.
I get what you're saying about kicking on and just making them go forward when they spook and I do try to do this with him but it's a fine line to walk. On the one hand I want him to go forward and not spook or spin etc but on the other hand I don't want him so forward that he runs off with me.
They do love to challenge us these horses! I am really enjoying him and I think he's a great learning experience it's just difficult to have a horse you have very little control over. I guess it's because I've always had smaller horses I could stop. Like my mare does everything in a happy mouth snaffle and is never too strong, so he is a big shock.
 
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Agree that doesn't sound bad to me, does sound interesting. I would have tried that with mine, and if I'd thought of a good space. The trouble is, when they really do p|ss off out of temper/naughtiness/whatever they seriously motor, and you eat up any ground pretty quickly. Def quicker than my "get in excellent instructor and slog for 5 years" option tho!! :)
 
Just thought of another thing too, the main way I fixed it was riding him FORWARD at all times. I do think that whatever they're doing, just ask for forward, and the trouble with a tank is it's hard to control your body when deep inside you're actually thinking "oh please don't go now. There is a road/drop/hedge there!!! :( That's why I reckon Crackajack's thing might work, also has clearly worked for her! Good luck keep us posted?? xx
 
you have my sympathy having had my share of really strong horses in the past. I would however play around with the stronger bits to find one he likes. My old boy was pretty much unstoppable and went through everything before we settled on a pelham for XC. interesting about the hunting - that horse was superb out hunting and would never take off. He worked out we were going to be out for a long time and even behaved staying behind other horses which was a real no no on a hack. My mare, equally strong, had evented XC in a pelham. I tried jumping her in one and she went so far behind the bridle I swapped. Ended up with a continental gag which is my personal "least like", - steering seems to go to pot in the jointed one but the mare liked it. My current horse now jumps in a fulham jointed gag which suits him best but he isn't a "disappear" horse more the "i prefer to go on my head given half a chance brigade". Either way, I would bit for your safety first and foremost and then work backwards. There is nothing funny about being taken off with 1/2 ton+ of OTT horse!
 
Have you heard of the one rein stop. Its basically an emergency stop. How it works is you teach the horse to bend his head right round to your foot, and ask him to move his hindquarters over. If you pull on a horse with both reins, what he will do is brace against it and pull back. A horse cannot run away from you or tank off if his head is bent round to your foot.
http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/OneReinStopExplained.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpDSbXPtzU

These are just a few of the useful articles and vids on the subject.
Its important to teach the horse to do this in a mild bit, pssibly even with cheekpieces to stop the bit running through the mouth. Luckily i use a halter so dont have to worry about the bit.
But it sould be taught in a controlled place, arena etc, and from the ground up. So once the horse can bend his head lightly round to where your foot would be, try it on him. By teaching him to halt with his head round you are able to disengage the power from the hindquarters. If his head is in front of him, he can put all his weight into your hands. When you teach him to bend and disengage, you take away his power to pull. BUt it should be well established before doing at in an emergency. If you do this on an untrained horse you can cause him to loose balance and possibly even fall.

Hope this helps.
 
When I had a very heavy cob who used to tank off (setting his neck so that he could not be steered!) I had 2 bits of advice from my instructor - change to a Dr Bristol bit and really sit in the saddle so that he knows you are there and then tell him to halt don't just ask - TELL! It did improve him although he was never perfect!
 
Have you asked the owner if they have had this problem and what bit they settled on?

Mine lowers his head and tries to tank off. The stronger the bit, the worse it got so I went back to a full cheek snaffle (from a 3 ring gag). I also find squeezing with one rein (half halt) works alot better with the control.

Everyone thought mine was doing it to avoid the bit, sounds like yours is doing the same.

How do you normally approach a jump? I tend to ask mine at the last minute to keep more control - not ideal but safety first!
 
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, so this might have been covered already. Have you tried using the Dutch gag that he came in with 2 reins, one on the snaffle ring and the other on a lower ring? This is how they were originally designed to be used. You can just use the snaffle rein when all is well and bring the other into play when necessary.
 
Hovis used to pull my arms out so I had a chat with my dentist (who is also my instructor) to see what bits might suit his conformation, mouth etc.
Anything he could lean on gave him instant advantage as once he was on my hands and on his forehand I was in big trouble.
I now ride him in a cheltenham gag and 99% of the time can hold him in two fingers he's so light in my hands. But the 1% he tries to run then I know i can hold him.
I found him a nightmare in a dutch gag and the pelham was a joke - if you could call 600kg of muscle, with a neck the size of most horses bums, leaning on you funny!.
I also have learnt if he gets on my hands and starts speeding up to let go of the contact and then take it back. I don't mean throw the reins at him but give him nothing to pull on. Its the scariest thing to do if they're running but it does work i promise! (she says with all the confidence of someone who was crying at their instructor that she couldn't do it only 6 months ago!!)
If the man who hunts him can hold him is he also very responsive to weight? Hubby can control Hovis better than me when hes being a prat not through brute force in his mouth but from using his weight in his seat.
 
I also go with the cheltenham gag it was the only thing that stopped my horse he had been a mans horse so I found him really strong when out or jumping etc also as previously said if I rode him forward all the time then I wasnt fighting him all the time.
 
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