Help with Epileptic Dog

TheBlackMoth

TheBlackMoth

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Can I ask for some help with Bunny please.

Since she was about 2 she has had little fits that last 15 to 20 minutes. She shakes all over and pants and heavy breathes.

The vet said it was a type of epilepsy - I think he said like Petit Mal.

The morning she had a different type of fit which I can only describe as her 'spazzing' - her legs were jerking all over the place and she was panting, heavy breathing, and shaking uncontrollably. After half an hour of this we took her to the vet, where she threw up and foamed at the mouth and he used a GA to sedate her and kept her all day.

I picked her up at 5 and he gave me some Epiphen tablets for her (and a bill for £232). She has been fine all night - back to her normal cheeky self until half an hour ago when she had another major fit and threw up again.

Now we have always held her during this episodes and she has always seemed calmer when held than when not held.

The emergency vet I just called said not to hold her but to put her somewhere padded and dark to reduce stimulus until she regained conscientiousness.

However, the thing is she doesn't seem to lose conscientiousness at all - and is always responsive to her name - and can look you in the eye.

I could really do with some advice on how to help her - it's incredibly distressing watching her and a) I'd like to minimise the fits as much as possible - and b) know what to do when she does fit.
 
cptrayes-internet diagnosis is not a responsbile thing to do.
OP-I would be looking at getting your vet to examine her and see why she has started having these more severe fits, it is concerning that she is having episodes lasting over half an hour, although encouraging that she remains conscious.
There is a real danger a seizure could become uncontrollable. Did your vet give you any indiation why she has increased fitting?
 
The vet didn't say much - just give her the tablets. And I wasn't thinking straight so didn't ask any questions. I think because she has fitted so rarely I expected it would be a long time before the next one.

He didn't say why it has got worse - just that she needed the tablets.

I will ring him tomorrow - she has settled down on the end of my bed to sleep now.
 
I agree with SuzieT that we are not vets (& even if we were we can't diagnose over the internet!) and that this is really something you need to go back to your vets about. The advice the emergency vets have given you is the standard advice that I've been told to tell clients with fitting animals. (Student VN in training) The reason we tend to tell clients not to hold / restrain them is that they usually are totally unaware of what they are doing and so can quite easily end up biting without meaning to and the restraint can cause some animals to panic in their disorientated state and cause them stress which may make the situation worse. However you know her better than a stranger over the phone and if you feel she is better with you being there holding her and seems to be aware of you then I don't see that it would harm her. If you're worried about this then again I'd seek the opinion of your vet. I'd say to have her in a room with the lights dimmed / switched off depending on what's practical and turn all tvs and radios off and generally try and keep things nice and quiet and calm and move anything out of the way that she might injure herself on (eg we've got coffee tables with sharp edges in out living room that we would do best to move in such a situation). Is she still seizuring now or has she stopped and have the emergency vets given any indication as to what they want you to do if she has another fit during the night? Oh and cptrayes Epiphen is the formulation of phenobarbitone that is licensed specifically for use in dogs. *Edited due to vast numbers of typos!
 
Last edited:
SusieT said:
cptrayes-internet diagnosis is not a responsbile thing to do.
OP-I would be looking at getting your vet to examine her and see why she has started having these more severe fits, it is concerning that she is having episodes lasting over half an hour, although encouraging that she remains conscious.
There is a real danger a seizure could become uncontrollable. Did your vet give you any indiation why she has increased fitting?
Click to expand...

Did I diagnose Susie? I said ask the vet!
 
Hi Boulty

Yes the emergency vet said that about biting. It's such an alien idea to me as she is such a gentle dog and when fitting doesn't behave as if she would be able to close her mouth let alone bite.

She's stopped now and is sleeping on my feet at the end of my bed.
 
Boulty said:
Oh and cptrayes Epiphen is the formulation of phenobarbitone that is licensed specifically for use in dogs.
Click to expand...


I did not know that. Another EU driven expense for pet owners? Phenobarbitone costs pennies, Epiphen is obviously much more expensive!
 
My friend's dog is on PB and has a pretty normal life. He bit her during his first fit (accidentally, she was patting him when it started) and made a real mess of her hand as he clamped down/started spasming.

It does not matter how nice a dog they are, they are not aware of what is happening, it is not deliberate and if they catch your hand, it is not nice.
 
I'm not disputing that it would be nasty if she bit me - or that she might not be able to help it.

I'm just a bit confused as I can't see how - in the way she is fitting it would happen. Apart from spazzing with her legs a bit - what she is doing is shaking and panting - she's not unconscious.
 
As suggested the reduction of light and sound helps to bring the dog out of the seizure faster, alot of people do get bitten trying to restrain a dog in a seizure, the dog becomes unaware and confused of sorroundings and can often loose bowel control which results in urinating or passing faeces.
Restraining can also exhaust the dog more as it's not only fighting against the spasms/seizure its self but also againt the restraint, and can leave them doubly exhausted, they will usually pace/stagger ad pant heavily afterwards for a little while until coordination is restored and generally get thirsty and hungry afterwards.
Talking to them does help and find can bring them round a little quicker, also being familair with the seizure it's self and the signs of a one starting helps you to prepare, try to avoid stressful situations as this can encourage a seizure but also try and distract her just before she goes into one as sometimes you can prevent them this way, just tr caling her to you, this works very well for my friends spaniel whos seizures are stress induced alot of the time.
Keep a diary of length of time and recovery time of seizure and have a another word to the vet and as for a little more advice.
Its very common in j.r.t's, i would mention it to her breeder as it is hereditary.
 
Thanks Cayla.

This time she was asleep under the covers on my bed and at first I thought she was scratching herself. I did wonder whether it was because she had got too hot.

This morning could certainly have been stress as first there were the window cleaners then the man to mend the tumble dryer - all before 8am.

I will let her breeders know and it has nailed the final coffin in the very very vague plans of thinking it would be lovely to have a Bunny baby. If reading all the breeding threads on here weren't enough - this would certainly mean a no.
 
Sorry to labour the point but if anyone else is reading this thread, there used to be a huge problem with epilepsy in my breed and there still is in some lines, all it takes is one dog and one bitch, please, please, please do not breed from a known epileptic or epilepsy carrier, it literally breeds misery for dogs and owners x

As mentioned hopefully you can use a combination of meds and management like my friend's dog (OES) and she should live a pretty normal life, best of luck x
 
Dear OP
My little terrier has suddenly just started to have fits. She has half an epiphen tablet morning and night and she's fine now.
 
My old Lurcher was epileptic all his life, The advice we had from our vet was: DON'T stimulate by Calling, holding or stroking but cover his head with a light blanket to keep out the light, then to back away and let him come around in his own time. The other advice was, if the fits were less frequent than 4 or 5 per month, no need for medication.
 
my old lurcher has petit Mal fits, he was totally aware at all times of what was going on around him. His head would shake and his body tremble. We could call him and he could come to us when it was happening, but not control the tremble. Interestingly enough he could always come out of it with smelly cheese! The vet tried phenobarbitone, but to be honest the fits were only about once every month or so it was actually better for Boz to not be on the drugs as he reacted so badly becoming so hungry and drinking and peeing all the time. He lived to a ripe old age, his fits became a little more frequent as he got older. I always held him when he fitted and he seemed to prefer close contact than being left alone. But he was never badly fitting and as I said always aware of what was around him. Always exhausted after one and would frequently just fall asleep in my arms.
 
As a matter of interest, do dogs get toxoplasmosis? My cat fitted from it last year but he's a tough old tiger and he got better before the vet got the results back and prescribed any meds.
 
Our mini schnauzer cross has epilepsy. They seem to be stress related. She's had blood tests to rule out any physical cause. She has clusters of them, she can have several over a month and then go several months before having another one. She s not on medication. She doesn't ose conscousness so i have comforted her and it seems to bring her round abit quicker. Good uck with it. My dad had a setterx that had epilepsy and lived to 15 years
 
OP; seizure pattern can change with time and even with a petit mal seizure where they don't fully lose consciousness, in the post-seizure period their behaviour can be altered enough that, no matter how gentle and nice natured they are, some dogs will snap or bit unintentionally.

If your vets haven't already done so it would be worth asking them to run some blood tests just to rule out any underlying trigger eg liver problems as a cause of seizures although in a dog who started fitting around your dogs age idiopathic epilepsy (with no underlying trigger) is often the cause. The only way to definitely find out more about this would be to consider referral to a neurologist for MRI scan of the brain and spinal fluid analysis but MRI is expensive.

cptrayes; phenobarbitone is the active ingredient in epiphen, which is the licenced product in dogs. You're right, dogs can get toxoplasmosis and it can cause seizures...although it is relatively rare.
 
My mums dog had epliepsy and frustratingly (poor dog) seemed to have fits when my mum was on holiday, it scared me and I hated it, he used to salivate and wee whilst in them, he would then wander around the house for hrs very disorientated!! He was on Epifen and to pretty much controlled it!

Hoping your girl doesnt suffer too much, in the end cancer got him so nothing to do the the epliepsy!
 
Unfortunately, I've had quite a bit of experience with epilepsy. In my cases, (more than one dog) the type of seizures were diagnosed as idiopathic epilepsy. All of the dogs had extensive blood work and neurological tests, which proved negative for any causative stimuli. However, all the of the dogs were related (I was not the breeder). Some of the most important lessons I learned in managing epileptic dogs might be of some interest and assistance to the OP (notwithstanding veterinary advice and support). First and foremost, keep a journal of the dog's seizure activity. The duration, severity, and frequency of these events should be discussed with your vet. A few of my dogs experienced seizures only a few times a year. Others had them a few times a month. None of them ever lost consciousness. Most vomited, some violently. The ones that had several seizures a month were put on phenobarbetone.

Arriving at a therapeutic dose was achieved through trial and error. One of the dogs metabolised the drug so efficiently that to have any effect, his doses were quite high. Conversely, the other dog was so sensitive to the drug that a rather low dose achieved the desired results. The 2 medicated dogs did have break-through seizures, but those events were appreciably ameliorated by the drug. That is, their seizure activity was greatly reduced in number and in severity.

Interestingly, they always attempted to come to me while in the throws of their fits. I always held them, in a darkened, quiet environment, which we both found comforting. These dogs were Norwich Terriers, which are the smallest working terrier, and quite easily held on my lap. My experience with them covered more than 22 years, so I had a good working knowledge of their behaviour during a seizure.

In an environment where there are several dogs, and one is epileptic, it is most important to be aware of the hierarchy and dynamics of the group. One of my medicated dogs was alpha, and if he had a seizure while he was out and about with the other dogs, they would try to set upon him. He was NEVER permitted to be out with the pack without human supervision.
The other epileptic was a bit lower down the ladder, but he, too, was never left in a vulnerable position.

As heartbreaking and stressful as it is to own and witness epileptic seizures, with proper medical intervention and a few lifestyle modifications, as mentioned above, affected dogs can and do live quite normal, happy, and long lives. My two boys both lived to be almost sixteen years old. As an aside, both boys had been bred extensively before they came to me. Many of their progeny are affected. Don't breed from an affected dog.
 
My Border Terrier has very similar fits to the more severe ones you were describing. As a general rule I would agree with your vet on the matter. This is mainly as they have done at least 5 years training and are very knowledgeable about their chosen subject, but also because of my own experiences with my dog, and what I have seen doing work experience in veterinary practices. However, I have also found that simply sitting with him with the lights off and in silence, whilst remaining a little physical contact (e.g a hand on his back) keeps him calm, maked me feel like I'm doing something to help (which is, let's face it, the problem you are dealing with). Though I would never do this with really severe cluster siezures.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Also, sorry for the very long reply, I am currently in Lower Sixth and doing an Extended Project Qualification, trying to answer the questions "How does diet affect canine epilepsy? And can it be used as a measure to control it?". I have produced a questionnaire as part of my research and was wondering whether you would be willing to participate? If so, please email me at eliddell@woodbridge.suffolk.sch.uk. Incidentally, if anybody else has, or has had a dog with epilepsy I would be very grateful if you, too, might email me.
Thank you
 
Dear OP my JRT also has petit mal seizures - average of 2-3 per year since he was 3 1/2yrs.

I always hold Oz, as he remains conscious and tries to get to me if he is not by me when it starts.

One thing to be cautious of though is that she doesn't over heat whilst fitting.

The advise you were given re: staying away was standard advise as if the dog has a grand mal seizure, it will be totally unaware and not only could bite whilst fitting, could be aggressive as it comes round as are usually disorientated and frightened (my old dog used to have grand mal seizures which were scary for both of us).

Definitely one to discuss with your vet. Good luck.
 
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