Help with my 14mth old dog's behavioural issues?

EllaRidesHorses

EllaRidesHorses

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Our dog Charlie is quite a nervous dog as on walks he has been attacked 3 times by dogs off the lead, despite asking politely to the owners to put their dog on the lead.

Anyway, if Charlie has something he's not meant to, e.g. a sock he's pulled out the washing machine, he will run off with it. Once you have caught him, next you have to get the sock off him, and this here is the problem. As soon as you reach for it he bears all his teeth and growls at you. Sometimes, he even snaps at you! We want to put a stop to this behaviour, as we don't want him to catch one of us.

Do you have any tips on how we can stop this?
 
Yes - instead of taking, make it an exchange. Don't worry about reinforcing him running off with things - you won't be, you will be rewarding the very last thing he does - i.e. giving you the object. Food, a favourite toy, whatever he values highly, he will learn to come and offer it to you in exchange for his reward.
You can put a word to it eventually such as "give" and reward. Is he a gundog breed, they are often bred to hold on to things?
 
So he wins a prey item, then you chase after him and take this prey item off him. See how it appears from his point of view?

Don't let him steal socks out of the washing machine. Keep the door of the machine closed or keep him out of the room while you are emptying it.

If he does get hold of something he shouldn't, swap it for something desirable like a piece of food so that giving something to you is a positive experience. Yes, it is bribery, but if he is growling, bearing his teeth and snapping at you at 14 months, then something has gone wrong in the initial training.
 
Any dog which defies its owner, bares its teeth and snaps, has no respect for the owner, at all. Pacifying a 14 month old (all but a puppy), and offering deals and exchanges has the dog winning every time. When the dog's 4 years old, what then? More bribery?

Without discipline, ERH, you will end up being bitten. Dogs are the servants of Man, and not the other way round.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Any dog which defies its owner, bares its teeth and snaps, has no respect for the owner, at all. Pacifying a 14 month old (all but a puppy), and offering deals and exchanges has the dog winning every time. When the dog's 4 years old, what then? More bribery?

Without discipline, ERH, you will end up being bitten. Dogs are the servants of Man, and not the other way round.

Alec.
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So what discipline would you suggest Alec?
 
As I am more of an Alec type training person than a cuddle it person I would say as CC does to remove the opportunity to steal things where possible. I would certainly never expect any dog of ours to growl at us but these people have obviously taught the dog to do this (I don't mean intentoinally). Please sign up for a training class, OP, you need help, this dog is walking all over you.
If one of my dogs growled at me while it had something I would clump it and take what I wanted, sorry all.
 
Alec Swan said:
Returning to the basics of training, and that the OP stops what is effectively rewarding the dog's unacceptable behaviour.

Do you allow your dogs to defy you?

Alec.
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No I dont allow my dogs to defy me they wouldnt dare, one of my rescue Dobes on his first day with me decided to lie on the sofa, as I hadnt given him permission I told him to get off, he reacted by growling and showing his teeth, I dont do bribery either so walked behind the sofa. tipped it up and shouted get in your bed which he did.

I think everyone suggesting bribing the dog is correct, i would even suggest this myself even though I dont do it because its a safe method of extracting a sock etc, I dont know the op or the dog and would never give advice which if it wasnt carried out correctly might put the op in danger of being bitten .

I would suggest the op teach the dog leave it, its a command that covers lots of things which might even save the dogs life one day.
 
Lévrier;12688231 said:
I must remember to beat my dogs into submission to show them who is boss more often, heaven help them if they dare defy me.....
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If you don't know the difference between discipline and "beating a dog into submission" I hope you don't have children!

One of my dogs appeared with a dead hen in it's mouth today. I made it clear that I did not approve of it touching a hen but understood that it was probably the younger dog, safely locked up in the kennel but loose earlier in the day, that had killed it. The hen was gently taken from her, with a growl, and will be attached to the electric fence by a length of insulated cable for the pup to enjoy in the morning.

Damn! Now I know all that was unnecessary! I should just have beaten the first dog senseless and given the pup a biscuit to divert his attention from hen killing! :)
 
Lévrier;12688231 said:
I must remember to beat my dogs into submission to show them who is boss more often, heaven help them if they dare defy me.....
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Explain to me, if you're able, just how such asinine remarks contribute anything to a post where a dog owner has asked for advice.

Silly and childish sniping says little for your continued insults.

Dry Rot, you're wasting your energies.

Alec.
 
Clodagh said:
If one of my dogs growled at me while it had something I would clump it and take what I wanted, sorry all.
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The owner has already stated that the dog is nervous. I'm yet to understand how 'clumping' it would do anything but make matters worse.

OP, have you tried clicker training? It's all a bit of a minefield but it is based around the idea of positive reinforcement - clicking and treating for wanted behaviour, ignoring for unwanted behaviour. I would try getting in contact with a certified trainer who knows what they're on about.

It is astounding that some people still believe that punishment-based training works. I find it hard to comprehend how walloping your dog for displaying a natural behaviour would ever be successful in the long-run.
 
Natural behaviour is not threatening and biting your owner! At least not acceptable natural behaviour. I added that the OP should go to a trainer and said that personally I would clump it, not that OP should. The dog is probably nervous as it isn't liking being in charge and doesn't feel competent to do it and yet has been forced into that situation by people that allow it to be. Old fashioned view, yes, but I have well trained and happy dogs.
 
FlaxenPony05 said:
The owner has already stated that the dog is nervous. I'm yet to understand how 'clumping' it would do anything but make matters worse.

OP, have you tried clicker training? It's all a bit of a minefield but it is based around the idea of positive reinforcement - clicking and treating for wanted behaviour, ignoring for unwanted behaviour. I would try getting in contact with a certified trainer who knows what they're on about.

It is astounding that some people still believe that punishment-based training works. I find it hard to comprehend how walloping your dog for displaying a natural behaviour would ever be successful in the long-run.
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I was just off to do the dogs but had to ask...so when your dog bites you you click and give it a biscuit? Is that really right? Do you wait until it lets go before you click or if you click while it is sinking its teeth in does that work just as well?
 
If you hit an already nervous dog all you are doing is teaching it that unpleasant things happen when someone wants its toy- so most likely it will get even more snappy and defensive and even less likely to give you what you want. In this case, I would try and teach a give, starting with a toy until its secure, so when the dog runs off with something, you can give it a positive command to do what you want, which it will get rewarded for- through a treat at first, or a click if you clicker train, or even just a word of praise.
 
Sorry Clodagh but it sounds to me as though you have little or no comprehension of how clicker (or any reinforcement) training works, in theory or in practice. Read "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karon Pryor and then you will see that there is science behind it and that you NEVER EVER reinforce a behaviour you don't want to be repeated, such as biting.
I honestly thought the dog world was catching up with the horse world by being able to see things from the dog's point of view, but maybe not, reading some comments on here.
Biting and threatening is entirely natural behaviour, in the context of a pack and defending a resource. It is just not in the right context in the OP's case. It is possible that establishing seniority would very well work if you started when the puppy was young enough, but clearly in this case the young dog is at what I call the "Kevin stage" - an adolescent pushing boundaries, and to me that indicates his perception of who is leader around there is not established. Being a bully will not do that - a really good vet and behaviourist by the name of Robin Walker defined bullying a dog into a certain behaviour was a bit like trying to shape a piece of soap by stamping on it - some soap will do what you want, some soap will break into dozens of little pieces - and some will fly off at a spectacular rate of knots. I suspect OP's dog will do the latter.
Would any of you train a horse in that way? And if not, what is the essential difference? Both are mammals, both learn in the same way even if their purpose is slightly different.
 
OP put your dog on a lead, give it something it will hold (a sock is ideal) then offer it a piece of cheese/liver cake or similar, dont touch what the dog is holding, as the dog releases the item to take the food say 'leave' and verbal praise. you need to teach your dog what you want/expect and you need to do that in a calm and controlled way. In time you can work towards holding the item whilst the dog releases and also asking for leave before offering food, yes it takes longer but it builds trust and a dog that wants to work with you not do as it is told out of fear-personally I like my dogs and my horses to be confident t try without fear of punishment if they get it wrong.
It is not bribery it is positive training-I do think there is a place for a reprimand but only when the dog knows what is expected and not before, I dont agree with heavy handed tactics when training or working with any nervous dog-there is always a better way that will not provoke shut down or defensive/nervous aggression.
 
Clodagh said:
I was just off to do the dogs but had to ask...so when your dog bites you you click and give it a biscuit? Is that really right? Do you wait until it lets go before you click or if you click while it is sinking its teeth in does that work just as well?
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No, because clicking whilst biting would be rewarding the aggression, and that would be pointless. I would click and treat at the lowest points of the intensity of the aggression. If he's snarling, for example, and then relaxes his snarl, he would get a click and treat. It's about finding windows of wanted behaviour, even if it's the tiniest, tiniest hint at a wanted behaviour, that you can then use and work with accordingly. As he realises that he receives a treat only when he doesn't growl or snarl, then these windows would open up more and more. I would effectively be shaping the desired behaviour by positively reinforcing each time he displayed it.
 
Alec Swan said:
Explain to me, if you're able, just how such asinine remarks contribute anything to a post where a dog owner has asked for advice.

Silly and childish sniping says little for your continued insults.

Dry Rot, you're wasting your energies.

Alec.
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Well your comments sure as hell aren't helping the OP, so I thought I would join in :) The OP has received some excellent advice on here fortunately from others who have a much better comprehension of correct training methods than you do.
 
JillA said:
Would any of you train a horse in that way? And if not, what is the essential difference? Both are mammals, both learn in the same way even if their purpose is slightly different.
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I would argue that we see more positive punishment in the horse world than anywhere else tbh. Aren't most kids taught to give their pony a good sharp smack when he refuses a fence? I certainly was, and it's no different than giving your dog a wallop when he tries to bite you.

In my mind, this is abuse, fair and square. Just because we've been conditioned to think that it works doesn't mean that it's right. At all.

(Slightly off topic, but this is an good article on pain thresholds in horses if anyone's interested- http://theconversation.com/whips-hurt-horses-if-my-legs-anything-to-go-by-33470)
 
FlaxenPony05 said:
I would argue that we see more positive punishment in the horse world than anywhere else tbh. Aren't most kids taught to give their pony a good sharp smack when he refuses a fence? I certainly was, and it's no different than giving your dog a wallop when he tries to bite you.

In my mind, this is abuse, fair and square. Just because we've been conditioned to think that it works doesn't mean that it's right. At all.

(Slightly off topic, but this is an good article on pain thresholds in horses if anyone's interested- http://theconversation.com/whips-hurt-horses-if-my-legs-anything-to-go-by-33470)
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A wallop will make a nervous dog more nervous, a confused dog more confused, a truly aggressive dog more aggressive-I fail to see the benefit
 
twiggy2 said:
A wallop will make a nervous dog more nervous, a confused dog more confused, a truly aggressive dog more aggressive-I fail to see the benefit
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That's the theory isn't it? And it would be a logical conclusion, one might think. Strangely, it often isn't the case. Violence, for the sake of making the administrator feel a bit better, is pointless, and it achieves nothing. The question is always in the timing, and if you watch those dogs which live in a group, or a pack, once order is established, so there is never any need for a further expression. If we place ourselves as part of our pack and when we've established a level of balance (the right word?), so we should then never have to rely upon force. First, as Mrs. Beeton said, we have to catch our hare! First, we need to install discipline and that's so in all pack existences.

Consider the Spanish riding Masters, and the severity of the bits which they used and still do. They were never applied. Why do you suppose that some of the best riders, have such severe bits, only to never use them, or to apply their use? In any instance of respect and compliance, there has to be a leader and a follower. That's the way that it's always been and always will be.

Disagree with me, by all means, but if those who do so could remain civil, it would assist the discussion.

Alec.

ets, having just re-read what I've written, it would seem that 'force' is the only route that one can take, and of course, this isn't so. with dogs which don't challenge us, it would be completely unnecessary. Those dogs which would deny us our place as pack leaders, or would 'Challenge' our authority, 'sometimes' force can have our pupil learn by the shortest route, that we actually mean what we say!
 
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I've had animals all my life. I work on the principle firm but fair. My daughters puppy chi growled and snapped at me when I tried to take an empty packet from him, he got a loud NO and a tap on the snout. He has never done it since, leaves items when asked. He always seems happy to see me, so I don't think I terrified him. I've had larger dogs and yet again a smack on the bum and voice reprimand has always worked for me. I would be devastated if someone thought I was an animal beater. I don't condone violence, but watch animals and how they chastise each other, that can be pretty rough. I think so much depends on the individual situation, the individual animal and the owner, (being able to assess the situation and the consequences of resulting actions.)
 
BSL said:
……... My daughters puppy chi growled and snapped at me when I tried to take an empty packet from him, he got a loud NO and a tap on the snout. He has never done it since, leaves items when asked. ……..
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Here's the point; you corrected a puppy which was testing where the boundaries 'really' were. He learned quickly. My OH has a lurcher dog here, and when he was about 4-5 months old, I went to pick something out of his bed which he'd just carried in there, and I knew from his warnings signs what he was about to do. He growled and received a slap across the face as he started, and to date he doesn't fear me and he and I have an excellent relationship. Had I allowed him to put me in my place, then by now we would be struggling.

The cherub Charlie has learnt how to warn his owner, the OP, just what they can and can't do and just what 'He' will permit. Why he's been allowed to get away with this, one can only imagine, but it's probably because his apparently nervous disposition has been over compensated for. There is no reason at all why nervous dogs shouldn't be compliant and obedient, indeed there are those which having a grasp on where they fit, within the family structure, grow in confidence. Tolerance, love, cuddles and kisses are often not the answer with such animals, I've found.

Alec.
 
With your experience Alec you are obviously fine to do that - timing and just enough (but not too much) force are critical. If OP was that experienced she wouldn't have had to post on here, and IMHO it is dangerous to suggest to someone with that sort of inexperience and inability to read body language that she needs to assert herself. She might well do fine, but she might go completely OTT, or do not quite enough and have the dog learn very effectively how to defend itself even more. I had a cocker who had been there and was an expert at self defence of all forms - more force wasn't the answer for him.
 
JillA, there is NO QUESTION, that if force is to be used, then it must be proportional, the dog must understand the reason for the punishment, and importantly, it must succeed. The question which surrounds the dog, is also age dependent. Giving a dog a slap, and the dog spins round and nails you, by way of return, is pointless and will only worsen a difficult situation. I agree that for the OP to post as they have, it may well be that the dog already has the upper hand. I put an old collie down in 2008 at the age of 14. As a young dog he was bone headed and 'correction' seemed to have the minimum of effect. From the age of 6 he needed handling with care. He wouldn't be picked up, he wouldn't accept any form of admonishment, and he wouldn't accept any form of Veterinary examination. Though probably classifieds as dangerous, and whilst others wondered just why I kept 'The Bloody Thing'(!), he was still perhaps the best working sheepdog which I've ever owned, or ever will. He was entirely predictable, it was just a case of managing him. I learned a great deal from that dog and I miss him to this day. Strange though it may sound, we adored each other!

You're absolutely right in that allowing any situation to develop in to a fight will have only one end to it. Violence, in itself, is never the answer, but I will take some convincing that a structured hierarchy is anything but the best relationship that we can have with dogs, even though it's often invisible to onlookers.

Alec.
 
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