Help with my 14mth old dog's behavioural issues?

He was trying it on. He gets sworn at a bit now and then, but then he's still a boy! He's never had a hand raised to him since, and I don't believe that he ever will.

Alec.
 
The 17yo daughter of a neighbour used to come over and help with the dogs. We took an old bitch down the field for a walk with half a dozen pups. The pups were jumping up and bothering the bitch as pups do. I knew they would soon be put in their place and said nothing. The inevitable explosion occurred, there was much squealing and crying as a couple of the pups were rolled over onto their backs and apparently bitten. The girl instantly assumed a puppy had been badly hurt.

I told her to examine the whimpering pups closely. Could she find any saliva? Of course, there was none. If they had actually been bitten, there would have been saliva, perhaps even blood. There was neither. The walk resumed as before with the only change being that the old bitch was now treated with respect.

For many years, I fed my dogs raw meat by simply cutting it up into lumps sufficient to each dog's requirements. Sometimes, a group would all seize the same piece of meat at the same time and there would be a tug 'o war. It never ceased to amaze me the control and accuracy each dog has over the use of it's jaws. Very seldom did they bite each other and, if they did, there would be a squeal and the biter would immediately release it's hold. I also learnt that if an alpha dog took a piece of meat and left it for any reason, no dog lower on the social order would touch it. But if I moved the meat with my foot, it once again came up for grabs and free for the taking. The social order was maintained by the slightest visual cues -- a low growl, a stare, a raised lip, sometimes just stillness until a perpetrator had backed down. Very seldom would there be a fight and I think I have been bitten fewer than half a dozen times in many decades of keeping dogs in a pack situation. Nearly all those bites were from other people's dogs.

I have two GSDs off working lines. They eat out of the same bowl, play fight with me and each other, will retrieve bones etc to my hand. The peck order is established and they both love me to bits. Have they ever been punished? Of course! Max pulled the frying pan off the cooker and he learnt that that impinges on my territory and brings down the wrath of the heavens (me!) on his head. He won't do it a second time but if he even thinks about it, I only have to give a low growl! He killed a hen. Same reaction. Sometimes it's a "No" or a "Leave". But, as I've stated before, the situation is similar to dealing with the Mafia. They don't push the boundaries and I very seldom have to threaten. We respect each other but I am pack leader.

The instant an episode is over, the dogs immediately get reassurance and life goes back to normal. Not like humans who bear grudges and brood over imagined insults for years! Beat a dog and you are telling it to go away and leave the pack. Beat a dog and reassure it that you are NOT expelling it from the pack and it will accept that the social order has been re-established and won't bear a grudge. Impinging on another's territory is not permitted if that other person is higher in the hierarchy. A growl is a threat. I don't need a clicker to explain to my dog that if he growls at me he has crossed the line. My reaction might be swift and violent IF I felt that was needed. But I would immediately make friends with my dog again and be ready to give my warning signal if it transgressed again. That at least has been my experience.

As for horses and "negative reinforcement". What, no whips, no spurs, no bits, no halters, no reins? I suppose they do it all for love, do they?
 
I take a 'firm and fair' and mostly 'positive reinforcement' approach to all my dogs. However, I'm afraid that sometimes a smack is necessary. I don't like doing it but it's better than the alternative.

My youngster (also now 14 months old) had started growling at me a little while ago when I wanted him to move off the sofa or over to another part of it so I could sit where I wanted to. Bear in mind that he always gets a "good boy" and a stroke when he obeys anything he's told to do. He's normally a really good boy and very smart but this was starting to escalate.

One day a couple of weeks ago, he snarled at me again and I gave him one sound and loud (cupping your hand slightly makes it louder without it being as painful as it sounds) slap on the rump, growled a hearty 'NO!' and put him on the floor. He wasn't allowed back on the sofa for at least the next half hour or so despite his best sad-eyed-I'm-a-little-angel look. He knew he'd overstepped the mark and so far hasn't tried it again.

That was his first, and hopefully last, sound smack but I felt it was necessary. That said, I think proper training, exercise and play should be the main focus as it usually negates the need for punitive action.
 
We have one lab with a similar "steal and take to his basket" drive. He is obsessed by retrieving things too. We found the easiest solution is to simply pick up another toy and tell him the fetch it, which he adores, then once he is out of his basket and away from his stolen item, telling him to lie down and stay, then simply taking the item out of his basket and throwing his toy again. It takes away the need to punish/reward, it simply distracts him from his possessiveness and doesn't make it a behaviour that is a big deal. If we see him en route with a stolen item he will drop it on command.
 
Honey08 said:
We have one lab with a similar "steal and take to his basket" drive. He is obsessed by retrieving things too. We found the easiest solution is to simply pick up another toy and tell him the fetch it, which he adores, then once he is out of his basket and away from his stolen item, telling him to lie down and stay, then simply taking the item out of his basket and throwing his toy again. It takes away the need to punish/reward, it simply distracts him from his possessiveness and doesn't make it a behaviour that is a big deal. If we see him en route with a stolen item he will drop it on command.
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Me too....no drama, no domination, no smacking...incidentally mine has always loved socks as they smell strongly of us...she doesn't chew them up but loves to throw them in the air, wagging her tail - looks like a harmless game to me! If I need that sock for the washing machine I throw a toy and she drops the sock...simples!
 
MerrySherryRider said:
The people I'd entrust my delightful and happy 10 week collie bitch with, are Alec and Dry Rot. I think she would feel safe and confident with them.
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Agree - I have two border collies. They appreciate clear boundaries, and get incredibly upset and insecure if they don't have them.

Sounds like this is the case in the OP.
 
Interesting to read. Perhaps just worth reiterating that dogs, (like horses) respond to different behaviour. I could yell at my eldest Stafford bitch all day and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Even increasing the volume near my Stafford boy and he is terrified. Would never ever had hit my mare but my gelding has needed a wallop when really trying it on. My pup tries it on a little bit at the moment but is clearly looking to see what is acceptable. All it takes with her is a sharp "no" and her name...for now.

I have started using clicker training, principally to reduce the wild excitement when someone is at the door. It is working although said person has to wait a bit until the dogs are sitting quietly!
 
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Just want to point out after nearly losing Stig last weekend and having an enormous vet bill, socks can be easily swallowed and turn out fatal if you don't get them out in time, so i would not advise allowing your dog access or using socks as a training tool.

Personally for me, i would be turning this dogs world upside down. It sounds like it is desperately unhappy and I would reassure it through stepping up to the mark and taking control, to allow the dog to just go back to being a dog again.

I would all but ignore the dog for at least two weeks, only interacting to put lead on, give feed, let out/in and even then, no talking to or direct eye contact. It is incredibly hard to do this, but do it and after two or three days, you will start to see your dog change in small ways...be less needy, be less anxious, be watching you/following your movements more as they want to follow you...no necessarily by getting up and moving with you, but by being always aware of where you are and waiting for any commands you give. As soon as you notice these first changes, you can start to give some commands. Call the dog to you when it is quiet, give a few strokes without speaking or looking directly into the eyes. Then send the dog away, or just get up and move, but you end the moment.

When you do this, dogs hang off your every word/move...not like servants, but like part of your pack. You'll probably find they care less when you leave them and become more independent and will go lay down on their own more, not all over you all of the time. These are all the signs of a mentally secure dog.

If a dog snapped at me, nervous or not, there would be an immediate show of my feelings about that. I don't hit dogs (exception of flicking our lab x rottie on the bum when she's having a deaf moment) but i do make damn sure they know when they have overstepped the mark. I will smack a hand against a wall or door close by or growl loudly. That said, i can count on one hand, with digits to spare how many times i have had to do that with four dogs at home.

The reason i say use the above ignore the dog method is simply because it is totally non confrontational and anyone can be safe doing this. Trying things you are unsure of with a dog that is unsure of you is a recipe for disaster, so you do need to bring in help for the snapping but it should be able to be sorted quickly.
 
Different owner reactions to misdemeanours and from dogs with differing demeanours, will have differing effects. I have 3 working cockers;

There's Sally. Exotically bred but quite genuinely as thick as a Dalmatian. Quite genuinely, there are times when she simply switches off, she can be wandering about at exercise, she can be called, either verbally or by whistle, and she's oblivious to any commands. She isn't deaf, she just lives in a world of her own, at times! Generally, bawling at her has the desired effect, and then her reaction is 'Who? Me?'. When she's working, then she focuses, bless her!

Then there's Swift. A hard going live wire who, even at the age of 3 years, has been known to have her brakes adjusted! She is a wilful and difficult dog, and without the routine of maintained discipline, she can get out of hand. She's actually a very useful bitch, but she's known to test my patience! She's a Dog Man's dog, if you see what I mean. With the less than focused handler, she would very soon be out of control. She's a very well meaning lunatic who it seems, constantly tests the boundaries!

Then there's Ward. He's Sally's pup and he's now about 15 months. He has never had a hand, nor yet a voice raised to him. He simply can't cope with any form of harsh treatment. Sometimes even asking him to comply is all a bit much. Obedience work has been, and is kept to a minimum. He's becoming 'slightly' bolder. He now needs to be allowed to transgress, seriously transgress and he needs to commit a few cardinal sins. I'm allowing him to chase rabbits because I know that I can stop him, and correct him with just a word. His shy and almost retarded ways are testing my patience, but any level of correction would have him as a complete flake. He will probably be sold on to someone who wants such a dog. It aint me!

There's Dave. Dave lives in the house. He's a stunningly beautiful Lurcher dog, and is as canny as the rest of his kind! He is as gentle and as peaceful as any animal, and with the exception of when at 5 months he snapped at me when I went to pick something out of his bed, I could see it coming and it earned him a slapped face, he has never since been corrected, even verbally. He's his Mummy's boy!

Lastly, there's Joe. He's a sheepdog and the only reason that he's still here (he's 10), is because no one else would want him! He is fiercely protective, of me, and he means it! He's severely limited in his intended abilities and I should have put him down years ago, and replaced him, but for all his ways, I'm fond of him. When he first arrived, he was completely wooden and refused ANY form of direction or control. I found that a hiding only made him worse, which I've never known before. I found a way around him which didn't involve being sorted out, and though it may only be arthritis, he's starting to slow down and listen, sort of!! His saving grace is that he's never turned his back on sheep, and even at his advancing years, we always get the job done!

The reason for the résumé, is to make the point that all dogs are different, as are all owners, and we have to tailor our reactions, to the dog before us. Whilst it's imperative that we have control over a dog, with luck and given the dog's maturing ways (hopefully!), so we manage to have a relationship with them where life is level and balanced.

I'll admit that I do see an awful lot of very unhappy dogs, and they're mostly those which have the upper hand. It's my opinion that all dogs need to have their own established place in the pecking order of life, and when they aren't sure of their place, so they display behaviour which would lead us to believe that they aren't happy.

Sorry for the diatribe!

Alec.
 
You put me off cockers! I have been offered a cocker pup from 2 cracking parents and am sorely tempted but then I read your post.
Our young lab is a funny mix of confident and nervous, strangers think she is almost bolshy but if you raise your voice she gets very worried. Easier that way perhaps.
 
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