Help with nappy young Warmblood

charlie76

charlie76

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This might get long! To start I would like to say I am not a novice rider and have dealt with a number of problem horses in the past but this one is making me scratch my head.
We bought a 4 yr old Warmblood just before Xmas. He was very very poor, covered in rain scald and had conjunctivitis. Basically a mess.
We saw him loose school and he was lovely , we also rode him very briefly as he was in a poor way and he was sweet but seemed very green. Rode him up the road, had a brief cling to the yard in the way out but was quick to get on and get out the yard once he was told.
Had him vetted and took him home.
As he was so poor we took things very slowly with him , lots of hacking, easy work on the lunge and small amounts of flat work. When we first rode him at home he actually was more educated than we had been led to believe when we tried him, he has obviously been well started as he was fab to lunge and worked in Walk and trot in a very balanced fashion on the bit with a super mouth.
He had been going very well and we were over the moon with what was a straight forward, good moving young horse.
He was also bold to hack and totally non spooky.
Fast forward to few weeks ago, he was being ridden in the outdoor school under flood lights as he had been for a few weeks when he took exception to a rabbit in the paddock next door. He then refused point blank to go near this end of the arena without a lot of effort. He didn't rear , he just planted and refused to move, when pushed he would reverse.
Eventually after much work we got him forward again and he was fine. He then continued to be fine in the school from the on, he was also great out hacking.
We then went for a hack as a group, he was ridden by a friend who is pretty experienced.
We met a pig, the other horses went past but him and one other we're terrified, eventually they came past but at high speed. Once past he was perfect for the rest of the ride.
However, since then he has been naughty to hack if he sees something he is unsure of, he will plant and reverse, he doesn't care want he reverses into, if you smack or kick him he reverses faster. He will even do it if he is in the middle of a group.
He has started to do it when leaving the yard and even coming back to the yard down the drive he wil do it GOING TOWARDS HOME.
I have tried sitting it out, smacking him everything but nothing works.
Eventually he goes but he has reversed through bushes, trees, down a ditch,he doesn't care what's behind him and I worry he will hurt himself or the rider.
He then went through a phase of doing it in the school again if he saw something he didn't like, a few days ago it was a brushing boot on the floor that came off of him. He was cantering, saw the boot and stopped dead and reversed. He the did this several times.
We seem to have stopped it for now I the school by carrying a short whip and keeping him really in front of the leg, however, I know he will do it again as soon as we get off his case.
Today he was brilliant in the school so I wanted to walk him down the drive to cool off , he walked out the yard very bodly, got half way down the drive and slammed the brakes on. No amount of turning him, smacking or kicking him would move him, he just reversed. Eventually I got him to stop and turn around and he reversed the other way, back away from the yard and towards where he didn't want to go! I couldn't stop him reversing. In the end I just booted him and shouted at him and he shot off back towards the yard.
I then got off him and stuck him on the long reins,the frustrating thing is, he will just march off down the yard on the long reins with no issues what's so ever, he will long rein for miles on his own.
Having a lead from another horse makes no difference as he won't follow the other horse once he starts.
Sometimes if you get a well timed smack in he will go but not every time.
If some one walks behind him he will go but you can't have some one following you around for ever!

There is a small thought in my mind that he had done this before when he was backed and the turned away and left rather than dealt with . It's as if he had forgotten to be naughty until something triggered it off again. It doesn't feel like baby greenness, it feels like he has tried this trick before.

Usually I would try and either sit it out, turn him on a small circle then send him forward or whop him but none of this works. If you sit him out he still won't go, small circles makes him still reverse buts whilst circling and whacking just makes him reverse at speed most of the time!

I have long reined him out of the yard every day for a week and he is perfect, get on him and he is a sod.
We have also got firm with him and he has gone out up the drive ten or more times but the next day he does it again.

He is a lovely horses with so much to offer so we want to crack this but at the moment I am a bit stuck as to what to do.
 
Ps all usual checks have been done, feed wise he is having a tiny handful of high fibre nuts and hi fi light and ad lib hay. He goes out almost every day.
 
Blimey that is a difficult one!
The only thing I can think of is you said if you can get a perfectly times smack he will go
One of my previous horses was nappy, not as bad as your chap. I found that if I caught him just as he was thinking about napping and really kicked and backed up with whip (even used 2 a coupe of times) he would go without anymore trouble. But if I missed the moment I had a lot more of a battle. Maybe if you really concentrate you can catch him at the right time. Do that half a dozen times and you might get thro to him

One old trainer used to follow of foot with a lunge whip and shoo them forward. Took her 2 weeks of doing it every single day to cure one horse. But cure it she did.
I wish you luck
 
Similar story with my mare. I also believe she was doing it and that's why she was sold.

This is what I did which I believe cured her (she reared and spun rather than reversed).

Cut her feed right down to just hay.
Long lined her past danger spots then got on her (different to yours as she did it in the same places).
Rode another and led her (for miles at a brisk pace). You could get someone to lead you on him if you have someone suitable and a suitable lead horse.
Worked on her general schooling and worked her hard out hacking so she had less energy or time to think about carrying on. I also tried lunging before hacking but I don't believe that helped.
Fed mag ox.
 
When it comes to sitting it out, how long do you wait? I dealt with a nappy hacker by literally sitting it out for however long it took - patting and praising any voluntary forward movement. I chose not to make a fight out of it because like you I had a feeling that this was a fight he'd already won previously with somebody else so I took a different route and never turned it into a fight or a big deal - if he stopped I just waited. It was actually relatively quick to resolve but had to be very consistent and not allow him to turn round at any point - always kept him facing the way I wanted to go.

The other option if he insists on reversing is to outwit him by turning him in opposite direction and then make him continue on your intended route backwards. You're then still telling him what to do rather than him just using reverse as a very effective evasion. Offer him the forward option every so often and if he doesnt accept then turn back round and reverse again.

I tend to think that these situations require more brain than braun - turn his evasions against him but try to do it all as calmly as possible without any more confrontation than necessary - raised adrenalin (his) will only escalate the situation and work against you. Outwit him rather than fighting him wherever possible.
 
sounds a bit like my horse. mine was started badly as a 3year old, learned that rearing resulted in being put back in the field and was then turned away unbroken & pretty much unhandlable.

When I got him mine was then fine to break and start steadily, but then after 6 months he wasn't. He reared whenever he didn't want to do something for about a year - from 4.5 to 5.5. I did whatever I could to make rearing unpleasant, and now he has pretty much stopped.

I really focus on rewards and fun with him. I avoid situations which might trigger a rear and 99% of the time he is fab. He always has it in his armoury tho and it limits him a bit.

In your place I would simply persist until horse realises that reversing doesn't work long term, while making sure that the things you want are way more fun.
 
Firstly ,dont even carry a stick with this horse.It is far too tempting to "give him a smack". He wont learn from it (most horses do but not this one)He simply does not trust you . Not your fault ,not his either. You need to do far more with your voice and reassurance. This is a very sensetive horse. Some horses dont seem to even consider themselves horses and the idea of following another horse seems ludicrous to them.I know it sounds odd. But it is true. There are a few horses maybe 1 in a thousand or less that the usual rules simply dont apply to. Then you find out how good a horseman you really are.
 
Agree with Lulup you need to out stubborn him.

Mine start out nappy the more I told him off the more insecure he would get, I learnt to remain calm hardly any contact on the rein (as he would try to rear) and keep repointing in the right direction, remaining calm like nothing is wrong eventually they get bored and eventually the tantrums gets less and less mine doesn't do it now.

If you can't turn him when he is reversing I would get off walk a bit get back on - again no big deal just act like its a normal occurance, rinse and repeat as necessacery.

The key is to make a big deal out of the correct behaviour even if he is just walking quietly down the road. I do the same to even older horses everyone like priase and too often we forget they chose to let us ride them and they don't have to walk quietly down the road so pat pat every now and agin and talk to him helps you as well as the horse.
 
Thanks. I have sat him out for quite a long time! He still reverses when I ask him to walk forward.
Mike, you can't ride him without a stick as you need some form of way to get him forward in an emergency. I also use my voice lots both to praise him and encourage him to go. He has only had a smack as a last resort.
 
Personally, if he will go out with someone on foot, I would do that for as long as it took to help break him of the habit- if you only have a helper a few days a week, I would ride those days and long rein other days so he is always going forward and working and not having an argument with you.

imo, a week is not a long time to try with a helper and then expect him to be cured.

I know a horse who was very nappy and needed his human 'nanny' for months- she even ran in front of him for his first few unaffiliated events!
But it did cure him and he is now eventing at BE Novice and has not looked back.

Some horses can't be forced or outwitted or tricked into doing what you want and you just need to concentrate on getting them confident and out of the habit of slamming the brakes on.

I know it sounds soft but when they nap so much they do it going home and will nap just to fight you, you have to be the one who doesn't take up the battle invite.
 
My 18 year old warmblood can still have mini meltdown's on this theme. Lulup perfectly described how I feel its best to deal with this episodes.

Avoiding a fight is imperative. Its vital too make sure you can allow as much time as it takes on the hack. Totally agree about someone on the floor, and if somehting new appears that I think will be a problem, I walk my horse in hand with oodles of treats to get him over it before we hack past. This is the same horse that will cross motor bridges and not bat an eyelid at arctic lorries/groups of motorbikes etc.
 
I haven't read all the replies, but this sounds exactly like what my WB does! It's totally a confidence thing with him, I think he gets to a point on a hack and he just can't take it anymore and he has his episodes. I have sat him out for over half an hour with no joy, I don't have the patience anymore! If I get off he is happy as larry usually and will carry on. Only rarely do we find something I struggle to get him past on the ground, but now I have had him a year he is more trusting of me too and will follow me a lot more easily. I tend to just get off when he has his episodes and lead him, then get back on again (Once I've found a fence to get on from!). This seems to diffuse the situation. And now the episodes are quite rare too, I honestly don't think getting off is letting him win, he's not doing it on purpose he is just struggling to cope. I think the earlier I get off the better, it helps to prevent him from getting too worked up in his head - like your boy he will plant and reverse and sometimes spin in circles, but even when he is planted he is quite stressed internally. He has reversed into bushes, ditches etc. and down a bank which was really alarming that he might go over backwards! Lots of reassurance really helps too, smacking is pointless he will fight you every step of the way.

Try not to think of it as naughtiness, he is just lacking in confidence and struggling to cope with the situation.

Also, my horse is now on a full dose of Relax Me calmer, which has made him better in many ways but he also does cope with hacking a lot better - so it might be worth trying a calmer.

Actually now that he has improved and that he is on the calmer, when he does hesitate I am able to give him a small tap and this does the job - he hasn't actually stopped in a long while.
 
I don't think it's a solution, per se, but I've now spoken to a number of people who have seen good results using Equifeast supplements for horses that get themselves in a state. Might be something to consider alongside whichever training/conditioning approach you choose to take.
 
Good grief you have my horse! ;) Not by DiMaggio is he, I think that's their specialty.


Ditto waiting it out. With mine it was totally confidence & he just needed time to process things. I can now tell before he does it if he's trying it on & needs a smack, or genuinely worried, at which point he gets time to work out that the situation wont kill him & he gets on with it.

These horses are too clever to be bullied.
 
I would echo Mike - you don't need a whip in the arena (what emergancy situation will you face in the arena?) Take it back a few steps. The first few times he did this it sounds like he had genuine reason to be spooked and scared. Being whalloped for it didn't help build his trust so now he is getting defensive every time just in case and getting his reaction before the rider (before the rider whallops him).

It doesn't sound like he was trying it on, and he was good before. Have a look at some of the training stuff Kyra and others have written about dealing with spooky horses - they tend to let them stop and look, reassure (not easy in the case of the pig particularly when another horse is also trying to escape as quick as possible).

He is young and only been with you for a very short period. I would go back to basics, start him in the arena (at the non spooky end if there is one), simple session, walk trot canter on a circle. Praise and reward for being good - talk to him, reassure him, ignore minor spooks, just keep him working. Build up that trust in the rider again.

Also what FuzzyPuff wrote - if he needs reassurance, get off and lead him past. Then he will learn that there is no need to fuss and get defensive and actually the outside world is fine.

If the pig is a regular, can you ask the pig owner if you can do some training with the pig and take along a pig proof horse to help him out?
 
My mare was the same, I can't count the number of times we sat in ditches, hedges and barbed wire fences! She can do backwards at warp speed and doesn't give 2 hoots about what is behind!
We started with 2 helpers, one in front giving her someone to follow and one behind with a lunge whip (me on top). We progressed until she would walk in front, then we went to one person behind with a lunge whip (never to hit her, just make lots of noise and discourage backwards motion!). Gradually the helper left a bigger and bigger distance behind. We only took her on her own to start with, I want to feel confident I can get her going anywhere and she is listening to me, not following another horse. When we'd been happily hacking alone for a couple of months, she then went out with others, usually in front and listening to me.

She is 14 now, generally great to hack. Not fond of livestock or very large machinery and will still reverse if pressure is applied. But, like some of the other posters, if she sees something that worries her, she is allowed to stop, look and think about it - she is not allowed to turn and if she backs up she gets a smack. Once she has worked it out and we go past and I praise her massively. I have gone from a horse that wouldn't hack at all (and she is as stubborn as they come!) to a brilliant nanny horse.
 
I find it interesting that if you catch him quickly and tap he goes forward but once he has stopped you seem to have very little chance of getting him going. Mine would plant when I first got him but a quick tap (and I mean TAP!) kept him going. Letting him stop made it 100 x worse. This worked for my horse who is 1. young 2. green 3. heavily reliant on his rider or other horses to know its alright. Agree it wouldn't work for everyone. I did try the chill out, let him take his time and ended up with a really worried horse. He decided whatever it was that had upset him must be really really bad as I wasn't telling him to ignore it either..

Point is, you are going to have to read the advice. No one can offer you the definitive solution and should not be saying "you must not" we don't know, we aren't there, we don't know your horse.

Logically I liked the concept of turning him around and reversing him. Possibly try work on desentivisation in the school? scary objects? water trays? dogs running around outside the school? may be even try a small pair of spurs so you can be quicker to tell him to keep going forward? I could feel when mine was about to as he would sort of shift his weight back just before planting - is it the same for you?. I had to relearn, sharpish, to sit up and focus but to bring a little brevity into this, there were times I seriously resembled one of the wibble wobble dolls as my young horse spun and went all over the place and I am trying to stay put!

Mine got over it. Still will do it if fresh or I am yacking too much or if the other horse has hysterics over something. We have found now that if there are any questions, it is better for my youngster to go first as he thinks he has to march on and be brave. I have a massive hissy fit on my hands if his hacking partner has refused to go past..!
 
I would say it sounds like he has done quite a lot when he's only been with you for two- three months? And has been put into one too many pressurised situations. I.e hacking on own, going down drive on own or going for long hacks, or longer schooling sessions. With a horse like that I would want to be doing just 20 mins a day . Make them 20 happy mins always finishing on a good note and always finding ways to avoid battles( if he'll go with someone leading him then always have someone there if needed) its about making each session short, happy and fun so that the horse starts to think ' that was easy I can do this!'
Instead of which every day at the moment he's thinking ' god I had such a long horrible battle yesterday I don't think I really want to do this again today' after a couple of months you could do 30 mins then build up to 40 mins , it's not about 'trying to get the better of him' or 'forcing him through it whatever way possible' just find whatever ways you can to sweeten him up again and getting him to enjoy his work& find it easy. With young horses I think they run into problems because people just expect too much too soon . Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick here but definitely go back to having short happy sessions at least, and avoiding battles in whatever way possible - dont keep trying to test him to see if he 's going to nap.
 
Does he have to hack at this stage? Could you maybe just school him for now, and hopefully when there is more established trust and acceptance of aids, he might be better hacking? Sounds like it is a battle you lose each time so maybe better to avoid for now. If the nappy behaviour comes back in the school then it obviously needs addressing as he is a riding horse after all, but unless he really HAS to hack maybe it is a battle not worth choosing at this stage, and in 6 months time he might have come on so much that he has forgotten all about it.
 
Thank you for the replies. I will read through them all and reply when I am not using my phone.
Just to say, with regards to an emergency situation in the arena, we had one, he reversed into the fence and smashed the mirror.
 
It does sound like he is genuinely frightened. I don't think your smacking policy has helped as he now seems to have lost confidence in you. Go back to basics and do some serious bonding with him in a safe environment otherwise things are only going to get worse.
 
Also, I have too use reversing past the issue and this has worked on occasion, but not every time. I think you have to judge how much of it is really genuine worry, and how much is slight worry with a dollop of "shan't". But ultimately I think top priority is to build the horse's confidence in you. Mine too is better if you keep him going, but it isn't always possible - now he is on calmer that is easier, he doesn't have quite so much "fight" as he did before.

In the arena, if he finds something that upsets him, I will either:

-take him away from it and work him away, gradually moving closer and closer to the offending thing, pushing his boundary little by little. The better you get the work away from the issue, the easier it becomes to deal with.
-Get off and lead him up to it, show him properly, then get back on.

Also, in case this may be relevant to you, mine has been treated for ulcers. He is on Succeed at the moment - don't know to what extent improvement is down to Relax Me and how much of it is the Succeed, but we just won our BD Regional last weekend so I'm not complaining!
 
charlie76 said:
No amount of turning him, smacking or kicking him would move him, he just reversed............ Usually I would try and either sit it out, turn him on a small circle then send him forward or whop him but none of this works. If you sit him out he still won't go, small circles makes him still reverse buts whilst circling and whacking just makes him reverse at speed most of the time! I have long reined him out of the yard every day for a week and he is perfect, get on him and he is a sod.
Click to expand...

I had a horse like this and it can be extremely frustrating to say the least. There are little things you're saying however, that make me think you may be inadvertinely reinforcing this behaviour, as it appears to be 'behavioural'.
Basically, it sounds as if he's a disobedient horse who's 'go' is not fully operational. He is simply is not convinced he has to 'go', providing there's nothing physically wrong with him, of course.
I would not circle this horse as you're not tackling the issue - which is that he doesn't go forward. Turning him in circle merely confirms to him that when he presents this behaviour to you, you allow him to not go forward - you allow him to turn. Everytime you do this, it reinforces how he doesn't have to 'go'. And, smaking whilst circling would further complicate matters.
Anything other than going 'straight' forward from your leg aids reinforces how he doens't have to go. You must not get off, again this reinforces how he doesn't have to do it.
In my experience the horse simply must 'go' and I keep at it until the horse goes straight forward from my leg pressure. Reins wide, so that they cannot turn/spin and thus evade my aids. In extreme cases some advocate the use of running/draw reins to support your clear rein aids that they cannot turn.
It's been hard and I've been put in the ditch before now but ultimately they have to go forwards and I was determined it was a battle I wasn't going to loose. Otherwise, in my opinion the behaviour will get worse as they simply know they can present this behaviour to you, and they don't have to 'go'.
 
Mike007 said:
Firstly ,dont even carry a stick with this horse.It is far too tempting to "give him a smack". He wont learn from it (most horses do but not this one)He simply does not trust you . Not your fault ,not his either. You need to do far more with your voice and reassurance. This is a very sensetive horse. Some horses dont seem to even consider themselves horses and the idea of following another horse seems ludicrous to them.I know it sounds odd. But it is true. There are a few horses maybe 1 in a thousand or less that the usual rules simply dont apply to. Then you find out how good a horseman you really are.
Click to expand...

Not read all replies, so sorry if repeating. I agree with this ^^^
From what you've said he sounds like he gets beside himself when he can't cope? I dont think he sounds disobdient, beause he appears to e doing ut when there is (to him) a trigger? No horse learns when stressed, so making him go is probably never going to have a long lasting result. Personally (and I know no one really wants to do this) I'd go ack to basics? Does he actually go off your leg, in an obedient and relaxed fashion, when hes composed? I'd focus on that, tons of transitions, but no speed, so he can actually think, instead of just flying along on his legs. and then I'd introduce scary things into the arena, and get him past those in the same way -simply working on response to leg. Would hack him only in hand / maybe long lines with someone, but only when he's bolder, on a confident, short route. So i short I'd avoid dangerous situations.
Sorry, know its not a quick solution, but he doesnt sound the type that's going to come out well adjusted if he only goes past something scary because the whip is scarier! :)
 
I love outsmarting difficult horses. I haven't had this exact behaviour, but agree that its a lack of trust, and after all, he's young, and hasn't been with you long. I would get him moving his quarters on the ground first, then shoulders, then backing up. All to the voice with very enthusiastic praise at the right time. (Richard Maxwell has a book showing how to do this effectively, and the "whip whop" thing). Then go in the school under saddle, and concentrate on his response to the leg. So walk on, praise, halt, ask him to turn on the forehand, one step at a time. If he does too many steps, just say "no" and repeat with lots of praise when he "gets" it. He needs to be waiting for your signal to go forward, back, or sideways. I find lifting the appropriate seatbone on the turns on the forehand is very helpful, they start to listen to the smallest shift of weight, and that is what you want. "nooo" is my only word, apart from really happy praising voice, sounds daft, but he is just a baby, and tone is so important.
It sounds like he was started by somebody who was rather scared and then tried stronger measures, but horses can tell so much from the voice and tension in the seat. Good luck, let us know how you get on.
 
When it comes to sitting it out, how long do you wait? I dealt with a nappy hacker by literally sitting it out for however long it took - patting and praising any voluntary forward movement. I chose not to make a fight out of it because like you I had a feeling that this was a fight he'd already won previously with somebody else so I took a different route and never turned it into a fight or a big deal - if he stopped I just waited. It was actually relatively quick to resolve but had to be very consistent and not allow him to turn round at any point - always kept him facing the way I wanted to go.

The other option if he insists on reversing is to outwit him by turning him in opposite direction and then make him continue on your intended route backwards. You're then still telling him what to do rather than him just using reverse as a very effective evasion. Offer him the forward option every so often and if he doesnt accept then turn back round and reverse again.

I tend to think that these situations require more brain than braun - turn his evasions against him but try to do it all as calmly as possible without any more confrontation than necessary - raised adrenalin (his) will only escalate the situation and work against you. Outwit him rather than fighting him wherever possible.

Took the words right out of my mouth
 
Try large sheepskin cheekpieces or blinkers. If you can break the cycle of rushing backwards it should help and he will not (or should not) be inclined to rush back so easily "blind". If you can progress this to then keeping his focus on you then you can progress this to you being top dog in the sense that he trusts you and will follow your lead. Definitely becoming top dog through a row will not work. It sounds like a very learned behaviour so if you can break the cycle it should help
 
Just a thought how off the leg is he normally? Is he really going forward 100%? Can you do some work on getting him more reactive to your leg and voice and see if that makes a difference? If you catch him at the point where the brakes are going on pre reverse what happens? Good luck.
 
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