Help with thin soles and Sacaral-iliac!! Any advice appreciated

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Guignol

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I was after people's opinions here as I am at my wits end....

I have a welsh section A for my 3 year old daughter. We have had him for 18 months.

He was fine for a week after we brought him home and then the troubles started when the farrier trimmed his feet as they were very long. The footiness started to the point he couldn't stand. I turned him away for the winter, brought himback into work in feb time and he was sound. It went on for 2 months until one day he started being footy again (I was doing a ride and lead). From day day onwards he has been lame.

The vet looked at him last June and diagnosed him with mild laminitis. I then stabbled him all summer with daily exercise. After 4 months he was no different and I moved areas and vets. I then decided enough was enough and gave him full x-rays and he was clear, with perfect feet just very thin soles. I have now had his shod on all 4 feet yet no difference (normal shoes).

he is sound on the grass and the school just on the road he 'snatches' with is back feet as just before he touches the ground he snatches it back behind him.

the back lady came to him today saying his feet were an issue but has a problem in his back end saying it was Sacaral-iliac. She massaged him and there was no difference. She said he needs a proper physiotherapist to manipulate him and for him to be sedated.

I don't know if this will cure him or if he is like is as he is trying to compensate for his feet or if he has a long standing injury? I took him for a walk in hand last week and for 45 mins he was not sound and then once he had warmed up was a lot better.

He is a wonderful pony that myself and my 3 year old daughter adores. I want him to be sound so my daughter can ride him but not sure if i am better off sending him somewhere that has the facilities to deal with him or retire him as I have limited funds and already spent a lot on him. He has the potential to be an amazing pony and his temperament is second to none especially considering he is in pain.

Any advice is appreciated as I am very lost and don't know what to do for the best
 
I would get an equine vet to look at him again, your back person is not qualified to diagnose this type of problem, it is possible he has a sacroiliac injury and this can be treated in different ways once diagnosed.
It sounds as if he has had long standing problems with his feet and that may of caused some other issues, have you had him tested for metabolic problems such as cushings? Is his diet low sugar/starch soaked hay etc. There are many things that could help that will not be too difficult to implement once the back is checked.
These ponies can come right but finding the cause can be the main problem, how old is he?
 
he is only 7.

I have had him checked for cushings and also diabetes. Looking at him he looks very well. No crest, fed on low sugar, good weight..

My vet has been very unhelpful I must admit. He told me it is his feet and that was it. The farrier said his feet are an issue but is lame and doesn't move correctly behind. He flinches badly when he is touched behind, lacks muscle behind and not happy at all when he goes on the road. Even with shoes he heads for the verges. He snatches quite badly behind and refuses to canter on one rein. He is loathed to go forwards and once he sees stones he lowers himself and tip toes over them poor chap.
 
What is his current diet, including any supplements? My Welsh A went lame behind, bi-laterally. She had a gamma scan at leahurst as they suspected it was to do with her SI. It was. She's had tons of pysio, shockwave therapy, injections into the SI, infrared '""therapy, etc. She's due to be brought back into work very soon. It's been a long haul (nearly a year), but she's currently sound. She's been barefoot throughout & the only thing we've noticed is an extra bit of hoof on the outside of her feet. Trimmer reckons she's grown it to compensate for the SI problem.
With regards to the thin soles/footyness, I'd deff test your boy for Insulin Resistance, ERS and Cushings. Or, you could just manage him as though he is one of those. Won't do him any harm if he isn't. I have an IR and Cushings girl -i manage my other 2 the same as her.
 
Just read youve already tested him.
Can you get a second opinion from another farrier/barefoot trimmer?
And a physiotherapist.
Also might be worth getting your hay and grazing analysed.
I hope u get him sorted soon :(
 
It sounds as if your vet is not going to help if he has that attitude, the pony is still young so must be worth trying to get right. If you look on the forum for threads on barefoot there are several things that could help with the quality of his feet, mag ox, brewers yeast are worth trying, some other minerals may be missing from his diet that is preventing good growth, possibly your farrier is trimming the sole too much.
If you want a recommendation for a good physio to treat him put a thread on asking for recommendations in your area, they will need vet approval but this should not usually be a problem.
 
Thank you. It is interesting hearing your comments.

I moved him about 4 months ago and he is exactly the same in terms of grazing etc.

I have had 2 vets opinions now and they just point to the feet. I don't think they think a section a is worth spending much time on from what i can gather!! One vet said it was laminitis hence he was stabbled all summer on laminitic diet (poor chap). He was no different when he was in 24/7 on 24 hour soaked hay than he is now.

I could try a 3rd vet and a different physio. I am not sure really what to do as I haven't the money to carry on investigating forever and he is kept for my 3 year old daughter so if he cannot be ridden and I can only afford to keep one pony, it is a very expensive pet so not sure if he is best off retired or to persevere?
 
he is on top spec so he has the nutrients. he has been on it for the past 15 months.

I might well ask around and see if i can get a good physio to see what they think.

It always happens to the good ponies doesn't it :-(

Thank you ever so much for your time everyone. i appreciate it as very disheartened right now.
 
Just re-read and saw about the farrier. I have used 2 farriers, both excellent. They have left plenty of hood on there to the point the vet said it was too much hoof that was causing the trouble. My farrier is anti shoes on ponies as he says is dangerous around children but agreed to put them on to see if there was any difference. His front feet are a little mor comfortable as in he no longer virtually falls over when he stands on a stone but still heads for the verges...
 
I would ditch the Top Spec tbh get some A&P Fast Fibre and feed a handful with magnesium
( bought off ebay ) See if you can find a barefoot trimmer in your area to take a look at his feet too.
 
Sorry I don't know much about ponies or sacro-iliac problems but we had amazing results protecting thin soles with pads. They are put on by farrier and are silicone that gives the sole more protection from stones etc and allows it to grow stronger. I used them for only two shoeings and my horses soles improved enough that I haven't used them since - about a year ago now and he's much happier. Just a thought...
 
Have you thought about hoof boots, im not sure if they go that small but its worth a try as should take a little pressure off the sole
 
I did use hoof boots but it didn't seem to make much difference.. We did think about pads and that is very interesting about it only took 2 shoeings and they strengthened themselves. Do you get thrush in the foot or anything with that?

We have booked the pony in for a third opinion with a very well regarded vet a few hours away on friday so will let you all know the outcome!!:)
 
liz4949 said:
Sorry I don't know much about ponies or sacro-iliac problems but we had amazing results protecting thin soles with pads. They are put on by farrier and are silicone that gives the sole more protection from stones etc and allows it to grow stronger. I used them for only two shoeings and my horses soles improved enough that I haven't used them since - about a year ago now and he's much happier. Just a thought...
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To be honest I am amazed that you could strengthen a sole with a silicone covering.

Did you change absolutely nothing else at all, other than putting on the silicone pads?

Not the slightest change in diet, work, shoeing (other than the pads) or stabling?

How long had you owned him before the pads went on?
 
To me it sounds more likely to be a back/SI problem. Have you tried a physio or any kind of body worker on him like a Bowen therapist? Have you tried him on bute to show if it's pain related? Is he as bad if you lead him unridden as ridden?

Some horses are more sensitive than others there is no doubt, but I would say hind footiness is more unusual.
 
I would suggest start with hooves and work up. Discomfort and inbalance in the hooves can cause problems further up, for example in the horse's back.

Has the vet or farrier made any suggestions about why he has thin soles and what can be done to remedy this? If not I would personally would find a recommended trimmer in your area and book them for a consultation. No horse needs to live with thin soles. If you are interested in this option then maybe mention where you are and people might be able to recommend a good hoofcare professional. (Note to the anti-trimmer folk, I'm suggesting this if the vet and farrier haven't suggested any solutions, if they had it would be different).
 
the back lady came to him today saying his feet were an issue but has a problem in his back end saying it was Sacaral-iliac. She massaged him and there was no difference. She said he needs a proper physiotherapist to manipulate him and for him to be sedated.
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Well that sounds like a lot of *****e to be honest - not surprised she massaged him and there is no difference.

If his feet are sore, there will be referred pain in lots of other places. You walk on your bare feet outside and you'll be sore in the lower back as you adjust your pace to deal with painful soles :)

Thin soles can only be dealt with in one way - feeding and stimulation. Remember there are solar laminae as well as laminae on the wall - and laminitis affects these as well.

Thin soles can't be cured by shoes, or pads which will only give you a thrush problem. If your pony has thin soles then shoes can only make it worse. Strangely enough that's used as a justification for shoeing in the first place...probably because it lifts the sole off the ground a bit - but it does nothing to resolve the problem and make life better for the horse.

So a good fibre based feed with no molasses and low starch. A great mineral balancer like the Equimins Meta Balance Advance - and use the recommended amount. Avoid anything with TopSpec in the name - in general sensitive ponies do very badly on it.

Then put him in an environment where he can move comfortably, but not have access to grass. Perhaps even consider soaking his hay.
 
Brucea

Are you a vet!? If not, you should become one,,

He was seen today by a top vet. One highly regarded in the race industry and was amazing.

Our pony had laminitis in the past but not enough to make his pedal bones moved and as a result he has very very sore feet. He needs his shoes taken off and have stick on shoes on the front with gel on the soles. Bare foot behind. He needs to lose 50 kgs (he won't look like a section A by the time i am finished but hey ho!). He is on a sparce paddock so will be easy to manage this month until the grass comes through and then will be a case of restricted grazing.

His back is totally fine and is in pain because of his feet. The back lady I had should, I am far from impressed and she gave me a diagnosis which was totally wrong and could have cost me a lot of money if i had done what she said let alone putting the pony through more pain

As this has been going on for so long the vet said we will do everything we can for 3 months and if he is not sound then we have no option but to put him down. He has always been managed as laminitic with limited grass/soaked hay etc so it is just a case of seeing how he manages on different shoes....
 
Hi, I'm so pleased to hear that your vet recommended you try pads on your pony's feet. As I told you we had great results, just didn't reply again as other posters seemed to be looking for an argument about this and I can't be bothered with that attitude! Fingers crossed for you, as the pedal bone hasn't rotated that is a promising start. Best wishes for a good outcome.
 
Brucea said there would be refered pain in lots of other places and suggested the lower back, and that is almost certainly right. Sore feet will cause pain elsewhere because the body will work out of balance. Just try it for yourself by maybe putting a pebble in your shoe and putting up with it for a day, by the evening you'll be surprised where you'll ache.

I really wish you luck and hope your pony can come good.

I think it's such a shame that your vet seems to think that thin soles are just something your pony has to live with, and that the only answer is to try to protect them with padding. Short-term, padding will help to relieve discomfort, but longer term thin soles can certainly be improved (as the maligned barefooters know).

Fingers crossed it all works out well for you.

Guignol said:
Brucea

Are you a vet!? If not, you should become one,,

He was seen today by a top vet. One highly regarded in the race industry and was amazing.

Our pony had laminitis in the past but not enough to make his pedal bones moved and as a result he has very very sore feet. He needs his shoes taken off and have stick on shoes on the front with gel on the soles. Bare foot behind. He needs to lose 50 kgs (he won't look like a section A by the time i am finished but hey ho!). He is on a sparce paddock so will be easy to manage this month until the grass comes through and then will be a case of restricted grazing.

His back is totally fine and is in pain because of his feet. The back lady I had should, I am far from impressed and she gave me a diagnosis which was totally wrong and could have cost me a lot of money if i had done what she said let alone putting the pony through more pain

As this has been going on for so long the vet said we will do everything we can for 3 months and if he is not sound then we have no option but to put him down. He has always been managed as laminitic with limited grass/soaked hay etc so it is just a case of seeing how he manages on different shoes....
Click to expand...
 
liz4949 said:
Hi, I'm so pleased to hear that your vet recommended you try pads on your pony's feet. As I told you we had great results, just didn't reply again as other posters seemed to be looking for an argument about this and I can't be bothered with that attitude! Fingers crossed for you, as the pedal bone hasn't rotated that is a promising start. Best wishes for a good outcome.
Click to expand...

Guignol said:
Brucea

Are you a vet!? If not, you should become one,,

He was seen today by a top vet. One highly regarded in the race industry and was amazing.

Our pony had laminitis in the past but not enough to make his pedal bones moved and as a result he has very very sore feet. He needs his shoes taken off and have stick on shoes on the front with gel on the soles. Bare foot behind. He needs to lose 50 kgs (he won't look like a section A by the time i am finished but hey ho!). He is on a sparce paddock so will be easy to manage this month until the grass comes through and then will be a case of restricted grazing.

His back is totally fine and is in pain because of his feet. The back lady I had should, I am far from impressed and she gave me a diagnosis which was totally wrong and could have cost me a lot of money if i had done what she said let alone putting the pony through more pain

As this has been going on for so long the vet said we will do everything we can for 3 months and if he is not sound then we have no option but to put him down. He has always been managed as laminitic with limited grass/soaked hay etc so it is just a case of seeing how he manages on different shoes....
Click to expand...



Liz 4949 that's why I asked you if nothing else had changed, because I really wanted to know if silicon pads could genuinely do that. I didn't want a fight. I wanted information in order to use it to help other owners. I'm sorry you didn't feel you could help.

Guignol, I'm sorry but it isn't "just a case of seeing how he manages on" different shoes. Your little pony is a whopping 50 kilos overweight, which you are going to get rid of. Once your pony has lost the weight please don't attribute his thicker soles to the pads and recommend them to others to "fix" thin soles. Your pony's thin soles are probably going to be fixed by getting his diet under control, and the pads are probably just protecting them while he gets there.

I hope it works for you both.
 
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It is hard for you all to see this pony going on my word but I can assure you he is not overweight!!!!He has no crest, I can feel his ribs easily and he doesn't even look like a section A. The vet said to lose 50kgs and did say he will be skin and bone. I can assure you with 50kgs off he will look terrible... His hips already are coming out. Everyone who knows him says he willnot be a pretty sight and I will have to be careful for people's reactions to be negative when they see the pony being ridden....

I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice on this. I can assure you i have been battling this for 2 years so not looking for a quick 'fix' and always had his weight/feed very strict. It is not a case of a novice with a fat pony being fed oats on lush grass. He is on sparce paddock, soaked hay and in a months time onto a dirt paddock.

We will see what happens anyway
 
I had a sec A several years ago that was pre cushings he was on pergolide but was weaned off as his weight came down, he was not fat to start with either and his work increased, he was put on Hilton Herbs cushings mix which helped to get his metabolism right , over the course of 2 years he just got fitter until he stopped the herbs also.
The vet said that as he was young, 10 when he started, that it was possible that the work and more active life reversed his condition, he went on to a very busy PC home and is still going strong.
So really just a suggestion to try the herbs, he may not have cushings but probably has a sluggish metabolism, a short trial would be really worth doing, or you could contact them for some suggestions, they are very helpful.
www.hiltonherbs.com
 
Guignol said:
It is hard for you all to see this pony going on my word but I can assure you he is not overweight!!!!He has no crest, I can feel his ribs easily and he doesn't even look like a section A. The vet said to lose 50kgs and did say he will be skin and bone. I can assure you with 50kgs off he will look terrible... His hips already are coming out. Everyone who knows him says he willnot be a pretty sight and I will have to be careful for people's reactions to be negative when they see the pony being ridden....

I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice on this. I can assure you i have been battling this for 2 years so not looking for a quick 'fix' and always had his weight/feed very strict. It is not a case of a novice with a fat pony being fed oats on lush grass. He is on sparce paddock, soaked hay and in a months time onto a dirt paddock.

We will see what happens anyway
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OK, I get you, he is recommending the same treatment that my friend has had to give to her highly insulin resistant mare. The theory is that the fat itself creates insulin, so they want you to strip every ounce of spare fat off the pony to stop theat happening, and then build him back up again if you can. Hers was definitely an RSPCA case, had it not been being done under vet supervision.

Thankyou for not taking offence at my conclusion that when you said he had to lose 50kilos that he had 50 kilos spare to lose.

Best of luck with this, it is a last resort. I hope it works. It has reduced my friend's horse from an insulin count in the 700's to one of just over 200, but the norm is under 100 so it has not been totally successful and unless she gets in foal this spring (she cannot be ridden, she has a permanent unsoundness due to tendon injury) she will be put down because she is still uncomfortable on her feet.

Good luck.
 
That is very interesting with the insulin resistance and what happened.

Life is too short to take offence and I no one wants to start an argument, only help each other (on the whole ;-)) . I think these forums are great as even if someone has a debate it is interesting to hear other points of view. I appreciate your time. :)
 
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