Help with wayward 4yo :( (bitting advice)

4faults

4faults

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I would appreciate any advice re a new bit for my 4 yo WB. He has taken to running onto the forehand and when he gets spooked it becomes all to easy for him to run off with me at 100 mph broncing and throwing me on the floor, im fed up of it :(

He is currently in a loose ring rubber snaffle but I think this may not be right anymore. He was brought back into work in October after most of the summer off and I think he is feeling very well and full of himself, I am doing lots of schooling work both ridden and on the ground with him, I have a lesson booked with a new instructor at the weekend which Im hoping will help but to be honest Im a bit nervous about getting back on him after being spectacularly dumped on Friday and ending up with cracked ribs.

Did anyone else go through this phase with your youngsters? Please tell me he will grow out of it.

My last youngster was a sweetheart until you pointed him at a jump. I know I have the knowledge and experience to get through it but I need a serious kick up the behind and some advice.

Sorry if I have rambled, I couldnt think how to word it all and thank you for any advice.
 
I sympathise. I too have a very boisterous warmblood. He is eight now and for two years or more I have never ridden him in anything without a curb chain. To do so is asking to be carted home from a hack, or out of the arena through the electric fence. He even tries to break through the walls of indoor schools. So he is ridden in a double to school and compete (we gave prelim and novice a miss and went straight to elementary), and a pelham to hack. Some warmbloods, particularly KWPNs it seems, can be very temperamental. I would urge you not to worry too much about other people's opinions of having a young horse in a strong bit. The country is littered with warmblood bullies whose owners fear to get on them. I have been offered several for free over the years that were sweet three year olds, strong four year olds and total nightmare five year olds. Just do what you have to do to get him under control and keep him there, for your own safety. It took me at least a year too long to admit defeat and accept that I had a horse who simply can't be ridden in a snaffle.

On a horse like him I would go to a mullen mouth metal pelham with a curb (start with chain and if that's too strong swap to leather or elastic or cover the chain with latex bandage) and two reins, so that you can choose to use the curb reins or have a hanging cheek snaffle effect.


ps if that's him in your banner and you fancy giving him to me, I'll have him :) !!
 
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Why don't you try a waterford, which would help stop him getting onto the forehand and therefore tanking off?

Problem is, now he knows he can do it, your battle now is not allowing him to do it!

You could also try lunging him before hand, just to take the edge off? :)
 
my mare was awful for leaning and running when i first got her (4yo) turns out i think she had been used to being ridden with a fairly strong contact and draw reins.


try doing smaller circles. I know hes young but if hes going to be rude running onwards then he can be made to think a bit. Also in trot work (which is when i found mine leant the most) almost do a back to walk transition then carry on trotting, all the time being very careful to maintain the speed/rhthym with your seat and rising.

it will come! be patient!
 
Can you get someone else who is a little more assertive (polite descrition) to hop on and straighten him out a couple of times. You may be in a vicious loop where you are anxious, he's starting to work out he's stronger than you and that he can frighten you.

Maybe less schooling & more fun hacking as well. I think the first & most important thing with young horses is that they want to work & mine still really can't see the point of going round in circles but hacks now like a pro & it's just teaching him to be a better citizen. I'm a bit amazed that anyone would put a strong bit in a youngsters mouth tbh, unless it's 18hh & being ridden by a midget. (am prepared to be corrected tho)

Finally I would be vigilant with teeth (sure you are anyway) the only horse I've known which genuinely couldn't work in a snaffle (fantastically well schooled horse) was found to have a problem with it's jaw - too many teeth & it required constant management to be usable.
 
I moved from a rubber snaffle to pelham in order to get my horse off the forehand and it worked well even with him being very fussy about the contact. It kept him together more and stopped the pissing off in canter that I had trouble with.
Can you cut out all hard food or is he still growing? I also find lunging before I get on really helpful with spooky horses as it really concentrates the mind and if I sit on and they still feel electric getting off and doing some more.

The other thing I think would be worth trying is cool, calm and collected which is supposed to be very good at helping with spooky and awkward horses. It would be worth speaking to them over the phone.
 
i would put into a training snaffle from neue schule - also to ride a lot of transisions !!

you could always try changing the noseband ?
 
I love my training snaffle, my big 4 year old goes very nicely in it.
Op when you say broncing does he buck? Rear? Spin? Wonder if there might be some benefit as siennamum says to getting someone on board who is full of confidence and will sit through that kind of behaviour and still
insist on work afterwards? Mine tried it a few times but luckily never had me off (even the time he slipped mid tantrum and sat down like a dog!) and after a few goes seemed to realise he didn't benefit from it so stopped bothering. Sounds basic I know but shortening up reins, more leg even when he was running on and really pushing him into contact and asking more of him seemed to distract as well. Although he is half Irish half kwpn so maybe the Irish side kicked in ;)
 
Sounds odd I know, but get him off the leg and more on the aids, and you will find the spooking reduces a alot anyway. Loads of transitions, and insist on the transitions being immediate and forward. May be worth getting something you can ride with 2 reins on, so that you can ride him on the "nice" rein, and have a "emergency" rein when he runs off. Something with an elevator action, such as a rubber cheltenham gag may help as it's effectively a snaffle, and then you can have the gag rein as a reminder.
 
If you think a stronger bit like a Pelham would help, then I would go for it simply for safety's sake. As long as you have nice, gentle hands, there should be no problem. You can use it until his behaviour improves and then use a milder bit. I keep hearing really good things about the Neu Schule (sp) bits. They are very expensive though so it may be worth hiring one from the bit bank to try it out.
 
Had (not quite as bad) the same probs with my now 5 year old Belgian W'blood - grew 3 inches in 12 months and is built like a brick s***t house! Had to put him in a kimblewick to get some respect back, then onto a myler and now he's in a neue scheuler verbindend as it gets him off his forehand but suspect will have to move up to a double soon (and onto elementary!) to have some brakes - he's not rude about it just likes to keep cantering round and round (and used to be very nppy but solved that with the kimblewick and able to given him a big 'oy, listen'!)
 
Hi everyone, thank you for all your great advice.

I am loathe to put him in a pelham as I think this may be too much, he is actually quite soft in the mouth. When he leans I tend to do as many transitions as possible and also some lateral work(usually back in walk because hes still a bit wobbly) with half halts.

CAT- I was thinking of possibly looking at some Neue Schule bits, I think I may give them a call and see what they recommend.

My Oh rides him on a regular basis, he defintely cant mess around with him, I am happy to give him a kick and ride him through the bucks he does when hes being silly or fresh, its the bolting and bucking and plunging that gets me.

I think we have a bit of a breakthrough today, gave him a thorough inspection and discovered his top wolf teeth are coming through, I am hoping what happened the other day is that he spooked, I pulled in reaction, hit his teeth which hurt and off he went. The dentist is out on Friday so I will see what he says, I want to eliminate this problem and see if he is still doing it after that.

Really hoping it is just that and not a behavioural issue, in the mean time Im goign to do a lot of lunging and get him looking at things in hand, expose him to as much as I can.
 
georgiegirl said:
my mare was awful for leaning and running when i first got her (4yo) turns out i think she had been used to being ridden with a fairly strong contact and draw reins.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention draw reins, he was backed by a SJer who rides EVERYTHING in tight draw reins. He was good as gold when I first got him then after being turned away over the summer the problems started and then turnout stopped which isnt helping.

I know Im being a wet lettuce, I did get straight back on him on Friday(cracked ribs and all) and got some nice work out of him, I was going to get on him tonight after a lunge until I felt his teeth.
 
i'd bin the rubber snaffle and go for a jointed snaffle, definitely, prob with full cheeks and a drop noseband. i wouldn't go for pelhams, gags and elevators for a 4 yr old, sorry, yeuk, he might end up totally frightened of his mouth and reluctant to take any kind of contact, the last thing you want (well, second last, just ahead of him running off and bucking you off). i'd get the saddle and his back checked in case he's objecting to something physical, instead of just being an over-exuberant git... ;) ;)
i'd always lunge him first as an attitude-check, and then do loads of transitions, changes of direction, slow work, keep him guessing etc.
oh, and i'd want a nice loose neckstrap to have a few fingers through all the time, until i trusted him a lot more!
hope your ribs aren't too sore and the lesson with new instructor goes well.
 
Ditto Kerilli a Fulmer with a drop is great for getting a horse confident in the contact. A rubber snaffle can be mild or can in some instances be a really nasty bit. Semi wet rubber drags at the skin so if there is any chance that he has opened his mouth and the mouth dried a bit he could be running away from the discomfort.

For schooling keep working in the snaffle but for hacking definately a kimblewick or a pelham with two reins, then you can ride on the top rein and use the curb rein when he gets strong.

To avoid pinching the corners of the mouth or the chain riding up the jaw bone, bring the curb chain through the snaffle rings. See pic below.
Pelhamwithchainthruring.jpg
 
I often use a nelson lozenge gag on youngsters once they are out and about, always with 2 reins as you can ride off the snaffle rein until circumstances require more drastic action

Personally I'd rather use a stronger bit to retrain briefly rather than end up pulling on the mouth because they won't stop!!

Pelhams are good too, but I like the nelson as its basically a full cheek with extra braking!!
 
Evelyn said:
Ditto Kerilli a Fulmer with a drop is great for getting a horse confident in the contact. A rubber snaffle can be mild or can in some instances be a really nasty bit. Semi wet rubber drags at the skin so if there is any chance that he has opened his mouth and the mouth dried a bit he could be running away from the discomfort.

For schooling keep working in the snaffle but for hacking definately a kimblewick or a pelham with two reins, then you can ride on the top rein and use the curb rein when he gets strong.

To avoid pinching the corners of the mouth or the chain riding up the jaw bone, bring the curb chain through the snaffle rings. See pic below.
Pelhamwithchainthruring.jpg
Click to expand...

Yes yes yes to all of this.
It amazes me how many people think that rubber and plastic bits are the softest things in the world and can't possibly do any harm.
the curb chain is a v good point too, must admit I do it that way now but I wasn't shown that when I first used a pelham, it took my present trainer 10 years later to show me that correct way, oops. :( :(
 
Wow I've never seen a curb chain done like that before, I think pretty much every illustration I have ever seen the chain has been below the rings.

You learn something new everyday huh!?
 
KristmasKatt said:
Wow I've never seen a curb chain done like that before, I think pretty much every illustration I have ever seen the chain has been below the rings.

You learn something new everyday huh!?
Click to expand...

It is the correct way to fit the chain but has become rather difficult since bits have been made in cheaper places, the curb hook should be shaped more to allow it to lie nicely outside of the bit. I have a lovely 30yr old stainless pelham from UK that was made with shaped hooks that lie flat. hard to get now.
 
kerilli said:
It amazes me how many people think that rubber and plastic bits are the softest things in the world and can't possibly do any harm.
Click to expand...

Hes in a rubber bit because he flatly refused to take a metal bit, he would head shake like mad and the slightest pressure would cause him to rear up. I am going to try him again now he is a bit older and see what he will accept, I may possibly end up taping a bit up.

I cant wait for the dentist to come out tomorrow and let me know what is going on in his mouth.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions, we havent bene able to hack out much with the weather being so awful but hopefully Im going to have a chance to box him up and take him to Somerford soon for a play :D
 
4faults, the metal in different bits varies hugely, I personally prefer the expensive ones because my horses prefer them, i think the cheap metal bits can leach oxides into the horse's saliva or something.
Evelyn, I think your picture deserves a post of its own, I think a lot of people probably don't realise that that's how to avoid a curb chain pinching.
 
kerilli said:
4faults, the metal in different bits varies hugely, I personally prefer the expensive ones because my horses prefer them, i think the cheap metal bits can leach oxides into the horse's saliva or something.
Evelyn, I think your picture deserves a post of its own, I think a lot of people probably don't realise that that's how to avoid a curb chain pinching.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of a Neue Schule, possibly hiring some from a bit bank to see what he accepts. Something lent me a happy mouth to try on the lunge the other day( I really dont like them but felt I had to accept shes been so nice) and he absolutely hated it so at least I can rule them out lol
 
Have you tried a sweet iron bit - they are cheap to. I have found all my three horses I have tried them on really seem to like them
 
never in all my days have i threaded a curb chain through the bit ring?!?! they never taught us that at pony club back in the day!! learn something new all the time.....
 
4faults said:
I think we have a bit of a breakthrough today, gave him a thorough inspection and discovered his top wolf teeth are coming through, I am hoping what happened the other day is that he spooked, I pulled in reaction, hit his teeth which hurt and off he went. The dentist is out on Friday so I will see what he says, I want to eliminate this problem and see if he is still doing it after that.
Click to expand...

Ask your EDT if she can see any bone spurs in his jaw....

My boy had them, you can read all about my experience with them on my blog here - http://www.gifthorseeventing.co.uk/2010/06/always-look-your-gift-horse-in-the-mouth.html

He just started leaning on the outside rein, and occasionally hollowing, and dropping behind the contact but left untreated and if they get worse the behavior can escalate.

Just wanted to share this as a possibility with you as till this year I knew nothing about them/had never encountered them

:)
 
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