Help with weak hoofs

[Sallyanne95]

That's why you need to keep reading. So you get loads of info and then make your own mind up. And when I say keep reading, I don't mean 20 minutes on here, I mean LOTS of reading. Educate yourself. Find out fact from fiction (such as 20% is low starch). You've had loads of good advice on here but you're determined to ignore it all.

I'm not determined to ignore it I have picked out the bits that I wanted but the bits I don't like is the criticising of my yard and farrier. I ask for specific things ie the creams and supplements and yes I have been told about them but I wouldn't come to any of you criticising your yard or farrier without knowing them personally

 

[ester]

The thing is good hoof care very much needs an all round approach - the right supplements/feed/thrush treatment if req/stimulation/hoof care professional. If any is lacking it becomes more difficult/impossible which is what people are trying to say by giving you suggestions to cover every angle.

 

[spookypony]

We can only comment based on the information you have given us. You told us that your yard only allows turnout 6h/day, and based on that information, I said I'd move to a yard with more turnout. You trace your problems back to the horse being stabled (though I don't think the hooves got that way in just a few weeks), so if that's the reason, then the obvious solution is to chuck it back outside. You told us that the farrier said "shoe" with no explanation, and I said that if he's been trimming that horse a long time, and if he was unable to offer you an educated opinion on the relationship among diet, exercise, and hooves, then for the sake of your horse, you need to educate yourself using the many resources that others have given, so that you are in a position to understand what your farrier is saying (or not saying) and why. And to be able to recognise when he's not providing an adequate service for your situation. Based on the information you provided, then all I can assume is that your farrier needs to be criticised. If there's more information to be had, then provide it!

Why are you feeding the Mollichaff Calmer at all? Are you trying to supplement vit/mins?

 

[Sallyanne95]

We can only comment based on the information you have given us. You told us that your yard only allows turnout 6h/day, and based on that information, I said I'd move to a yard with more turnout. You trace your problems back to the horse being stabled (though I don't think the hooves got that way in just a few weeks), so if that's the reason, then the obvious solution is to chuck it back outside. You told us that the farrier said "shoe" with no explanation, and I said that if he's been trimming that horse a long time, and if he was unable to offer you an educated opinion on the relationship among diet, exercise, and hooves, then for the sake of your horse, you need to either educate yourself using the many resources that others have given, so that you are in a position to understand what your farrier is saying (or not saying) and why. And to be able to recognise when he's not providing an adequate service for your situation.

Why are you feeding the Mollichaff Calmer at all? Are you trying to supplement vit/mins?

Yes currently due to the paddocks they are in they get 6 maybe 7 hour turn out but this changes next month when the horses get moved to there summer paddocks. The crack only appeared in the last coupe weeks my horses feet get checked daily and yes it got worse over the two weeks but only started two weeks ago. Yes he's said we are probably going to have to shoe but he's only seen a photo and will check it when he comes out and then I will get the advise from him when he can see it right in front of him.

He is on the mollichaff calmer as antithetical feed I put him on he becomes hard to handle and it's the only one I have found that suits him and keeps him nice and calm.

 

[spookypony]

OK, sounds like the paddock situation is set to improve, so that's good! If the crack is dietary or mechanical, your farrier should be able to advise on what needs doing...but I'd be concerned that "shoe" is his first answer, without even considering the less-than-optimal shape.

Why does he need to be on a feed at all, is what I was asking? If he's not underweight, the only reason I can see is to supplement vits/mins...

 

[ester]

I think mollichaff calmer mostly relies on it's increased levels of magnesium, which you could add separately either just by using mag oxide or would be included in a BF friendly vit/min supplement.

 

[Sallyanne95]

OK, sounds like the paddock situation is set to improve, so that's good! If the crack is dietary or mechanical, your farrier should be able to advise on what needs doing...but I'd be concerned that "shoe" is his first answer, without even considering the less-than-optimal shape.

Why does he need to be on a feed at all, is what I was asking? If he's not underweight, the only reason I can see is to supplement vits/mins...

The reason he said that was because he thinks it's most likely going to need that and I should know cause if obviously have to double what I pay normally but he might come and see that shoeing isn't right for what the problem is he's only seen one photo so can't diagnose it till he actually sees it.

He was on a feed as turned out all winter I've been slowly weening him off but if he gets nothing he does become hard to handle. All the horses get fed at the same time and he gets grumpy thinking he's missing out but he's also starting light work (was suppose to be a couple weeks ago but had problems with a saddle)

 

[flirtygerty]

The horse itself I have had a year but the farrier I have had a few couple and is very highly recommended. He said to shoe yes but like I said I haven't fully discussed the proem with him we are sorting it out when he comes. The yard I am at is fantastic and I am defiantly not moving. He gets turned out at around 9 maybe 10 am and brought back in at around 3 or 4 but ATM in winter paddocks. When moved to summer paddocks grazing will be more but ATM it is how it is. I didn't come on here to get everyone criticising me my farrier or my yard I just want to know of any good supplements and creams.

With all due respect, you need to listen to what people are telling you, not go on the defensive, the best supplement or cream in the world won't help if the horses management isn't right, haven't read all the posts, so apologies if this is a repeat

 

[flirtygerty]

And I appreciate that but in all honesty I have found tonight I have just mostly been told what I'm doing wrong and not what I should be doing how my yard and farrier aren't any good and also I'm told about low starch and sugar but even tho I asked nobody has told me what they class as low?? It's not been that helpful and this page has helped me before but right now I feel that everyone's saying how wrong I am but not giving me the advise I asked for.

You have been advised time and again by people who are recognised experts in feet, that you are feeding too much sugar, they advised Pro Hoof and Pro Balance, told you where to get it from, by listening to these very people who are trying to help you now, my 20 yr old TB who couldn't hold a shoe is now sound on all surfaces, is BF and never been happier, one thing I did, was change from feeding carrots and apples to feeding celery, added micronised linseed and sugar free sugar easybeet, for your horses sake, open your ears and listen, Faracat, Holly Hocks and Cptrayes to name but a few, give excellent advice on hoof care, or you could just continue to listen to all and sundry and confuse yourself further, how long have you actually been caring for a horse? you come across as being very inexperienced

 

[Sallyanne95]

You have been advised time and again by people who are recognised experts in feet, that you are feeding too much sugar, they advised Pro Hoof and Pro Balance, told you where to get it from, by listening to these very people who are trying to help you now, my 20 yr old TB who couldn't hold a shoe is now sound on all surfaces, is BF and never been happier, one thing I did, was change from feeding carrots and apples to feeding celery, added micronised linseed and sugar free sugar easybeet, for your horses sake, open your ears and listen, Faracat, Holly Hocks and Cptrayes to name but a few, give excellent advice on hoof care, or you could just continue to listen to all and sundry and confuse yourself further, how long have you actually been caring for a horse? you come across as being very inexperienced

I have had my own horses 4 years but been around them longer and I have actually worked at yards. I got advised a certain feed but that was stuff that added together was terrible so I swapped it for what I'm on now which seems to really suit my horse. I am unsure with this hoof problem and I have never had to deal with my horse having hoofs like this mine have always been in a good condition. I understand your saying about the sugar and starch but is that for all horses? What I feed isn't much over 10% combined and I was by others told it needs to be under 20% combined. Because if for all horses it has to be under 10% why are most feeds over 10% and horses I have come across are on a lot more feed starch and sugar then my horse and seem fine

 

[spookypony]

A diet too high in starches can lead to lowered pH in the hindgut, hindgut acidosis potentially causing hindgut ulceration. Fibre-digesting microbes are killed off. This applies to all horses; some studies suggest that a large proportion of horses have hindgut ulcers.

Many feeds are over 10% because they're crap feeds. Why do supermarkets sell donuts (I like donuts, but don't eat them constantly!), and highly-processed TV dinners, and that terrible flabby substance that passes for bread in this country?

 

[Sallyanne95]

A diet too high in starches can lead to lowered pH in the hindgut, hindgut acidosis potentially causing hindgut ulceration. Fibre-digesting microbes are killed off. This applies to all horses; some studies suggest that a large proportion of horses have hindgut ulcers.

Many feeds are over 10% because they're crap feeds. Why do supermarkets sell donuts (I like donuts, but don't eat them constantly!), and highly-processed TV dinners, and that terrible flabby substance that passes for bread in this country?

Yes I understand everything won't be great quality I fed my old horse only the best and once I got this new one I got bullied into feeding him cheap crap. Yes I know what he gets ATM isn't the best but it's what is working for us it's just over 10% and it's a lot less then what he got a few months back once he's in full and proper work his feed will be looked at and changed but ATM I am happy with it and I do understand how you may disagree but with change if feed I've gone from having a horse who was very hard to handle to a loverly kind horse.
It just seems that in my opinion it's extremely hard to get onto a feed lower then 10% so it can't be the worst thing in the world if it is a little over. Currently my horse is happy and isn't that what matters? I don't feel his feet are to do with his feed as he was on a higher starch and sugar feed before and they where fine back then ?

 

[Sallyanne95]

I understand what I'm about to say you'll all probably want to hang me but this is the content I got forced into feeding my horse and you may think forced what does she mean but I'm not lying I had a woman at my yard who constantly had ago at me for feeding my horse the good stuff and made me go with her to the shop and made me by the following

High fibre cubes - 16.5%
Conditioning cubes - 26%
Alalfa - 12%
Molassed chaff - 20.5%

So I grand total of 75%

I new this feed was bad and I got away from those people and put him on the one he is on now which is down to 11.2 / 12.2% which I personally don't think is too bad considering.

 

[spookypony]

I'm going out on a limb here cause have only one photo to comment on, so take it with a grain or lots of salt! It looks to me as though the top of the hoof (just below the coronet band) is showing a change in angle, which may well correspond with your change in feed. The earlier angle seems a tiny bit steeper to me, though again it's hard to tell from the pic. Changes take months to grow down a foot, so it's very possible that the bad effect of crap feed only actually becomes apparent after you've switched to a better feed. But again, there's only the one pic, so very hard to comment.

 

[Sallyanne95]

I'm going out on a limb here cause have only one photo to comment on, so take it with a grain or lots of salt! It looks to me as though the top of the hoof (just below the coronet band) is showing a change in angle, which may well correspond with your change in feed. The earlier angle seems a tiny bit steeper to me, though again it's hard to tell from the pic. Changes take months to grow down a foot, so it's very possible that the bad effect of crap feed only actually becomes apparent after you've switched to a better feed. But again, there's only the one pic, so very hard to comment.

When you see it in the 'flesh' it is apparent the top part of the hoof is different to the rest. So could this then mean that actually better hoof is growing through and the rubbish bit will be gone??

 

[Gloi]

The hoof that is growing down now was formed from what he was being fed at time it was beginning to grow down from the coronary band, so it would be several months ago. You are seeing in his hooves now , the result of what he was being fed last year.
I still feel though that part of the problem is how tall the hooves are and would love to see a sole view to see what is going on underneath.

edit - someone beat me to it.

 

[Sallyanne95]

The hoof that is growing down now was formed from what he was being fed at time it was beginning to grow down from the coronary band, so it would be several months ago. You are seeing in his hooves now , the result of what he was being fed last year.
I still feel though that part of the problem is how tall the hooves are and would love to see a sole view to see what is going on underneath.

edit - someone beat me to it.

His feed was changed a few months back and he was on that feed before for about a year.
I can get a photo tomorrow morning of the underneath as I don't already have one.

 

[spookypony]

When you see it in the 'flesh' it is apparent the top part of the hoof is different to the rest. So could this then mean that actually better hoof is growing through and the rubbish bit will be gone??

Yup, that's possible.

Agree with Gloi; would be interesting to see sole pics!

 

[martlin]

OP, if you want a hoof cream, I use Effol winter/summer hoof gels. Do they do anything for the hooves? Well, no, not really, but they smell nice and look nice and I like painting my horses' toes. They look very shiny, even if for only a few minutes, giving me that warm glowing feeling inside

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It just seems that in my opinion it's extremely hard to get onto a feed lower than 10%

It isn't easy and that frustrates me. Feed manufacturers aren't doing a good enough job. Unmolassed sugar beet (eg speedi beet) is a good base feed, which you can then add other things to (eg micronised linseed, oats, molasses free chaff) so I feel like I've gone back in time as I never feed mixes or pellets/cubes now.

Feed makes a huge difference though. I had four horses and swapped them from HiFi Lite to HiFi Molasses Free and every horse had a ridge grow down on each hoof that marked where I swapped feeds.. Above the ridge was better quality horn and below the ridge was poorer quality horn. So that's one tiny feed change (cutting out molasses) that demonstrated very clearly to me exactly how important what we feed our horses is.

RE Kevin Bacon, I used to use it but it didn't improve my horses hooves, so I stopped and left it in the tack room. I hadn't quite put the lid on properly and the mice ate it! I shouldn't really have been surprised, when you look at the ingredients it's pretty much completely made from lard.

RE supplements, again I will state that I have found that biotin alone isn't good enough to improve hooves. One of the properly balanced vit&min supplements that takes into account the deficiencies of UK grazing are much better. Pro Hoof, Pro Balance and Forage Plus are good ones.

 

[ester]

I understand what I'm about to say you'll all probably want to hang me but this is the content I got forced into feeding my horse and you may think forced what does she mean but I'm not lying I had a woman at my yard who constantly had ago at me for feeding my horse the good stuff and made me go with her to the shop and made me by the following

High fibre cubes - 16.5%
Conditioning cubes - 26%
Alalfa - 12%
Molassed chaff - 20.5%

So I grand total of 75%

I new this feed was bad and I got away from those people and put him on the one he is on now which is down to 11.2 / 12.2% which I personally don't think is too bad considering.

Just fwiw that isn't how % work, you can't just add them up - it is the starch% + the sugar % you need to add up - not the different percentages of all the feeds.

And no there aren't many that fit the bill which is why most barefooters can quite easily list their standard options (fast fibre/speedibeet/plain unmolassed straw chaff/spillers hi fibre nuts tend to be ok/coolstance copra if more condition needed - oats for energy, a fair few use thunderbrook, micronised linseed at least some, quite a lot if more condition required and a good, low iron, vit/min supplement or bespoke minerals to grazing (equimins advanced complete/forageplus/pro hoof etc.

People don't sit here on computers banging on about it just because, they are trying to be helpful based on their own experiences and reading of others experiences doing the same thing to save you having to spend the time googling/researching it yourself.

Faracat forget about the mice Frank used to eat it! :eek3:

 

[Sallyanne95]

Just fwiw that isn't how % work, you can't just add them up - it is the starch% + the sugar % you need to add up - not the different percentages of all the feeds.

And no there aren't many that fit the bill which is why most barefooters can quite easily list their standard options (fast fibre/speedibeet/plain unmolassed straw chaff/spillers hi fibre nuts tend to be ok/coolstance copra if more condition needed - oats for energy, a fair few use thunderbrook, micronised linseed at least some, quite a lot if more condition required and a good, low iron, vit/min supplement or bespoke minerals to grazing (equimins advanced complete/forageplus/pro hoof etc.

People don't sit here on computers banging on about it just because, they are trying to be helpful based on their own experiences and reading of others experiences doing the same thing to save you having to spend the time googling/researching it yourself.

Faracat forget about the mice Frank used to eat it! :eek3:

Each percentage next to each name is the sugar and starch percentage added up.

 

[Sallyanne95]

I asked the farrier why it happened and why he wants to put shoes on and he said 'Because the ground has gone really hard really quickly and he toes in slightly. And so I can stabilise it stop it moving and take the weight off it to stop it cracking more' also for anyone who asked I have some more photos of his hoof.

 

[ester]

yes but you can't then add them up to end up with 75% sugar

He does look to have a stretched white line, particularly round the quarters, is his frog on the floor when he is stood? From the pics - although they can be difficult to tell from it looks like the wall at the heels maybe stand proud of the frog. Do you know if he lands heel first?

 

[criso]

Each percentage next to each name is the sugar and starch percentage added up.


High fibre cubes - 16.5%
Conditioning cubes - 26%
Alalfa - 12%
Molassed chaff - 20.5%

So I grand total of 75%

To get the percentage here, assuming that you feed equal quantities of each you take the average which is 18.75%.

This would vary though depending on what you feed of each so if you were feeding more Alfalfa it would be lower, more of the conditioning mix higher.
Applechaff and Calmer range from between about 14.35 and 17.35 % though again this will change depending on the proportions fed.

I could get a more accurate figure if I had the quantities fed by weight in both scenarios.

Hope this clarifies.

As said it's not easy to find low sugar/starch feed. It's cheap and easy for manufacturers and molasses make the feeds very tasty which pleases the owners who can see their horses enjoying their feed. In fact it can take time to wean them off sugar.

Feeds that I have found useful depending on the work, type of horse and level of work are

Alfalfa Pellets
Unmolassed Sugarbeet
Copra
Linseed
Bran
Plain straw chaff.
Oats (these are higher in starch but horses seems to cope with them)

And apart from the Copra, they are all pretty cheap.

Just wanted to add, I have found my horses feet can get soft from standing in poo when on box rest. I haven't found a magic answer to this despite trying lots of products and being obsessive about skipping out. But I haven't found it cause cracks, just poor quality sole.

 

[Sallyanne95]

yes but you can't then add them up to end up with 75% sugar

He does look to have a stretched white line, particularly round the quarters, is his frog on the floor when he is stood? From the pics - although they can be difficult to tell from it looks like the wall at the heels maybe stand proud of the frog. Do you know if he lands heel first?

I didn't mean just sugar tho sugar and starch.. but you have them individually anyway.

I don't actually know if he does land heal first its nothing I have ever thought to look at tbh.

 

[Sallyanne95]

To get the percentage here, assuming that you feed equal quantities of each you take the average which is 18.75%.

This would vary though depending on what you feed of each so if you were feeding more Alfalfa it would be lower, more of the conditioning mix higher.
Applechaff and Calmer range from between about 14.35 and 17.35 % though again this will change depending on the proportions fed.

I could get a more accurate figure if I had the quantities fed by weight in both scenarios.

Hope this clarifies.

As said it's not easy to find low sugar/starch feed. It's cheap and easy for manufacturers and molasses make the feeds very tasty which pleases the owners who can see their horses enjoying their feed. In fact it can take time to wean them off sugar.

Feeds that I have found useful depending on the work, type of horse and level of work are

Alfalfa Pellets
Unmolassed Sugarbeet
Copra
Linseed
Bran
Plain straw chaff.
Oats (these are higher in starch but horses seems to cope with them)

And apart from the Copra, they are all pretty cheap.

Just wanted to add, I have found my horses feet can get soft from standing in poo when on box rest. I haven't found a magic answer to this despite trying lots of products and being obsessive about skipping out. But I haven't found it cause cracks, just poor quality sole.

thank you. He was one a scoop of each and in winter he does also get sugar beet but hes been taken of that atm.

I fed my old mare copra and I really liked that but where I live its so hard to get hold of.

 

[Sallyanne95]

Just wanted to add, I have found my horses feet can get soft from standing in poo when on box rest. I haven't found a magic answer to this despite trying lots of products and being obsessive about skipping out. But I haven't found it cause cracks, just poor quality sole.[/QUOTE]

he currently is turned out everyday unless poor weather. he gets a full muck out every morning after turn out and gets skipped out again before bed time just after his dinner.

 

[criso]

You have to do it by weight not scoop to calculate but if we assume roughly equal amounts then about 18%

Copra is great but very high in calories and protein so I wouldn't necessarily add until until a horse is in proper work.

Unmolassed sugarbeet is a very good starting point if he is calm on it. I had one that wasn't but it was because the calcium in the local area was high and sugarbeet is also high in calcium. So I could feed it at one yard but not another. It fluffs up with water so you can feed small amounts just to carry supplements but can feed in larger amounts if you do need more weight.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Just fwiw that isn't how % work, you can't just add them up - it is the starch% + the sugar % you need to add up - not the different percentages of all the feeds.

SA95, you then need to get the average, so divide by 4 (as it's four types of feed - this does assume that you are feeding the same amount of each food though), so 75 divided by 4 = 18.75, which is pretty much double what I would aim for (under 10%).

Faracat forget about the mice Frank used to eat it! :eek3:

No way!


SA95, there's a lot to like about your horse's hooves (lovely big frogs) and I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to shoe them. The sole shot shows that the hoof wall is too long, this is what people meant by 'tall' when looking at your earlier photo. It looks like he did have flair, which has been rasped down, improving his diet and stimulating the hooves (eg walking on tarmac) should encourage the new horn to grow down with a tighter white line. I really can't see why that horse couldn't work BF with the right care and hack, school and compete happily without shoes. I would find either a pro BF farrier or a qualified trimmer (whichever is the best in your area) and grow out the crack.

If however you want to shoe (eg you need to use studs or whatever) that's your prerogative as his owner.

PS, the hard ground doesn't mean that you have to shoe.