Help with worm count please!

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Sandstone1

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I had a worm count done a little while ago which came back with med results, so on advice of worm count comp wormed with 5 days panacur. have just had a repeat count done and its now higher than before i wormed her!
Waiting to get advice from them on what to do next. Anyone else had this?
 
Thank you for that. Im waiting for an explanation from westgate as to why this might be, Im new to worm counts so dont really understand. The count is still med but is higher than the first count taken before worming with panacur:mad:

the repeat count was about 3 weeks after worming
 
am sure westgate will advise.

Essentially you need to work out if you have resistant worms (possible with panacur) or reinfection.
 
well that would come from the grazing, the counts from the other horses (which were not and cannot be zero btw ;)) wouldn't matter.

essentially as a rough guesstimate if we are talking 2-3 weeks between treatment and recount it is likely resistance, if we are talking 6 weeksish we are prob thinking reinfection with maybe some resistance
 
well for info no eggs found in sample means that <50 eggs per gram of the faeces sample submitted has been detected, it is important that it is not assumed this means that the horse has no worms that's all :).

what was the time between treatment and recount?
 
It was about 3 weeks after worming that they were sampled again. One pony that had a med count first time came back as no eggs found in sample, the other was a med count but slightly higher than last time before she was wormed.
 
It may not mean your horse has now got a greater worm burden.... remember worm counts are taken from a small sample of horse poo... you may have just missed the worms last time!

I would contact westgate or similar and ask advice.

I did one test with my boy, he ended up with worms so I've gone back to worming as normal.
 
Borderreiver said:
Just to add for 'Alice' above, worm counts don't make worms, they discover them. Your horse probably still has them even if you are worming regularly. One worm count does not constitute using worm counts in a helpful way.
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I do realise that! :rolleyes:

The fact he had a worm count which was fine (<50) and then had a horrid bout of worms, I would have much rather wormed him in the first place so the poor chap didn't have to go through with all that suffering!
 
itsmylife said:
I had a worm count done a little while ago which came back with med results, so on advice of worm count comp wormed with 5 days panacur. have just had a repeat count done and its now higher than before i wormed her!
Waiting to get advice from them on what to do next. Anyone else had this?
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That sounds like you have a horse with worms resistant to Panacur (fenbendazole based wormers) What worms showed on your count? I would worm with Moxidectin, (equest or equest pramox depending on circumstances) and take another count in 14 days time.
 
I have heard of a lot of resistance to panacur, yet everyone still uses it first! I know a lot of livery yards who insist on every new horse going on the 5-day course and don't insist on a worm count to check it worked- crazy if you ask me. Also I didn't think the active ingredient in it worked on all worms?
 
As I understand it (failed vet student!), worms don't lay eggs with the same regularity of a laying hen! Sometimes conditions are "right" and they go into a laying spree. The worm egg count, as someone has mentioned, is just that -- a method of estimating the infection. It is a random sample.

I've used Panacur for young animals because it is one of the safest --and I will continue to do so. Sometimes I get better results when I repeat the dose over several days. I'm not a vet, so get professional advice.

Worms and horses have lived happily together for thousands, if not millions, of years. The problems arise when horses are grazing the same contaminated ground all the time. Normally, a light infestation of worms is acceptable and the animal will naturally build up a resistance. But if it is repeatedly ingesting a large number of worm eggs (and poo picking will help reduce that but it won't eliminate it), or the animal's health deteriorates, the infection can be overwhelming and that's when there can be problems.

Sorry, Westgate, I do my own FECs but I appreciate that you provide a valuable service and wouldn't want to understate that for one moment. But vets do make money from selling wormer, so it is as well to be aware of that too.
 
I believe the reason why panacur is advised initially rather than moxidectin is that the risk of complications, particularly with a horse with an unknown worming history, is reduced. Moxidectin can in affect be a bit of a 'shock to the system' and there are certainly anecdotal reports on here of colics when a horse with a high worm burden has been treated with moxidectin.
 
Quite so, as I said Panacur has a place for some situations, but you need to know anbout your horses worm resistance status. In the short term if that means a bit more worming and testing then so be it, it is for long term good.

I would never suggest Pramox for a wormy youngster, though again it is a very good wormer for some situations, the most effective we have. A foal or youngster does not have enough body fat to make this drug an option. Also it is a combination wormer (two drugs in one) and a wormy youngster should have one type treated at a time in case of problems.

If Panacur is suitable and effective for your horse then you can add it to the range of products you can use. If it does not work (which is not my fault by the way!) then that tells you a very valuable piece of information and do not use it again.
 
the trouble with biological organisms is that they are a right bit complicated sometimes ;) :)

BR, would you poss mind explaining the body fat bit to me?
 
Maybe BF buffers the chemical somehow? I will await that reply with interest.

For those of you who pooh pooh westgate's attempts to use a range of chemicals rather than just moxidectin, who are probably the same people who don't worm count and go straight to pramox, please reconsider using counts. Not only will it show you if your strategy is working, but if you don't count and just worm routinely you will be accelerating the rate at which resistance to the newest chemicals develops. With no new chemicals being developed (because what is the business case in spending all that money and resistance comes so quickly) we and our horses will be royally stuffed once that happens.
 
my assumption is that it provides a buffered storage for the 12 weeks of activity sort of thingish!

I believe that you can not count, worm routinely and not contribute to the development of resistance. But your routine worming has to be thought through and administered correctly. It is however one of the several arguments for not just throwing moxidectin and ivermectin (they really aren't that different) around routinely in addition the effect on the horses :).
 
I won't worm count "naturally" and will just carry on with what I do. I don't feel worm counts are reliable enough and don't do enough worms to warrent me wanting to do them. Iv seen horses colic before even though worm counts are done and it was in both cases the horse that suffered. Low counts so wormed for tape twice a year. Well what about encysted, or bots or pin worm? People around where I live seen to think a low count means low worms but don't seem to think about the many sort off worms they don't cover.
I honestly think unless a better system comes into place and owners learn more about the worm counts and not just worm for tape we could get a lot off wormy horses around
 
Before I stared doing egg counts I was seriously overworming my horses so all round it's a better system than worming not counting and not knowing what's going on
Resistance to panacur is widespread but it's a good wormer if the worms on your land are not resistant and it's one of the best against pin worm which are on the increase and a pain to get rid of.
Too much worming is the cause of resistance so it makes sense to worm as little as possible.
 
"thatsmygirl," (whats with "that"?) of course egg counts need to take into account the bigger picture, and be part of a good management scheme.

I think the accuracy has improved with more recent sampling and lab testing, too. Border, what method does westgate use?
 
ester said:
I believe the reason why panacur is advised initially rather than moxidectin is that the risk of complications, particularly with a horse with an unknown worming history, is reduced. Moxidectin can in affect be a bit of a 'shock to the system' and there are certainly anecdotal reports on here of colics when a horse with a high worm burden has been treated with moxidectin.
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This^^ I have used Panacur 5 day on wormy youngsters bought from the sales then I follow up with plain Equest and they stay in while being treated.

Having said that I did have one horse who reacted to panacur Guard but never had a problem with Equest!! But she was a bit special!

The 5 year old I have now was wormed with pramox when I got him, I knew he had been wormed before but not with the right product - as he was of good weight and and healthy I went ahead with the pramox - he had no problems with it but the worms did!!

Look
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I think that people don't truely understand the benefits of counts and far too many people don't use them properly. I believe that to gain a proper insight and build up a proper health plan counts need to be part of your routine for 2 years. It is NOT a cheap way out, but what it does do is help to reduce the use of chemical wormers so we can keep these chemicals for when we really do need them. We have only got to look at what has happened with panacur with widespread resistance and also to ivermectin as there is now reported resistance on some stud farms.

Panacur still does have a place in worming programmes and this is where the worm counts can help us! If say I buy a new horse, worm count, comes back high - I worm with panacur, count again and worms are significantly reduced - GREAT, panacur is working for us and therefore can be put in our health plan, if however the count shows no change or higher I would then go for moxidectin.

I am going to make myself highly unpopular here, but the way things are at the moment I am getting closer to believing it wouldn't be such a bad thing if wormers were maybe vets only - don't shoot me yet!! - But some of the worming programmes on some yards are just shocking!! With YO just buying what ever the cheapest wormer they can get hold of with scant thought to what they are truly trying to achieve!!

We will never get rid of all worms - nor do we want to as a low burden helps the horse gain some immunity, but we want to control the numbers of parasites so they don't have a detrimental impact on our horse's health.

Worming isn't a simple subject and there is no "one plan fits all" system - a stud with loads of youngstock and animals coming and going will need a vastly different approach to a couple of retired natives cross grazing with sheep!!

Don't be afraid to ask your local SQP, vet or people like westgate labs for advice - that's what they are there for! But don't close your mind to new ways of dealing with things, blanket worming on a regular basis of all stock was developed over 40 years ago and things have changed alot in that time so we need to look at new ways to manage things for the good of our horses and to hold off wormer resistance for as long as we possibly can - unfortunately it is too late to stop it, but we can try to hold it off.
 
Thanks for all the replys, im waiting for westgate to get back to me but it seems i will need to worm again with a different wormer. im new to worm counts but do think its the way forward.
Was a little concerned that count was higher after worming but at least I know not too use it again for that horse.
 
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