Video Help :(

[Ambers Echo]

Actually having just read IHW's post I'd say none of my lame ponies were happy in their work. I'd have been a lot less concerned about them if they were. But both Max and Ginny showed increased resentment/unhappiness about work. I doubt I'd have pursued expensive diagnostics if they were keen and happy.

 

[TPO]

What side was it that you did your ankle?

Are you sure it's not a weakness/compensation on your part that is influencing/affecting him given how sensitive/reactive he can be?

Can your trainer ride him (might take more than one session for a learned behaviour) to see if that gets a different result/reaction?

 

[ycbm]

Can you do some flexion tests on him yourself Michen? They really are easy on hind legs. If he passes those and is equally muscled, I'd probably just carry on, since he is happy and jumping well.

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[Wheels]

Does he look lame in the last video? Hmm not sure but he does take a couple of shortened canter strides with the inside hind that I wouldn't be happy with. I would investigate whether he does that cantering a small circle on the flat. I would also check trot 8-10m figure 8s to see if there was anything noticeable

It would be vet for me and if nothing shows up in-hand I would want a ridden lameness exam

 

[Michen]

Thanks everyone. Ok so.. my dressage instructor (who I use intermittently because, well, that’s how I am with any kind of training!) had always commented on the left hind being “weaker”. But actually mention how improved it was when sharer had a lesson the other day! I’m also not sure this could be a left hind issue when the disuniting means he is landing on the left hind instead of the right- that doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve never really worried about it because I accept that horses have stronger sides and he is evenly muscled.

These videos are the first time he’s jumped anything more than 80cm since last March. At no point did he remotely back off. He tapped the back rail of a decent oxer as you can see in the video but he was, in my mind, jumping everything “well”. But he’s such a trier, i feel like he’d jump with three legs. That said if he was in pain perhaps I’d be expecting much more awkward type jumps.

Re having trainer on him I don’t see much point as the girl riding is the girl who produced him, and the girl teaching is one of my trainers. Both know him well.

 

[Michen]

What side was it that you did your ankle?

Are you sure it's not a weakness/compensation on your part that is influencing/affecting him given how sensitive/reactive he can be?

Can your trainer ride him (might take more than one session for a learned behaviour) to see if that gets a different result/reaction?

Broke my right ankle. I am also terrible at riding straight, there was a thread about it a year or so ago. Boggle will twist when jumping if we get the stride a bit wrong, will throw his legs to the side to not rap it and I think I have contributed to this massively too..
Honestly though I basically just hack and hunt him. I’m not sure I could have schooled or jumped a problem into him because I simply haven’t done enough of it. I’ve jumped him a handful of times and so has his sharer...

 

[be positive]

He looks his normal self in the last video, a little flat but otherwise the canter is as normal never really coming under from behind but that is the same in all paces and always has been, it is better now he is stronger but the hind end never pushes forward in the way it should but that is him, he has enough push to jump, enough to be a very jolly ride and so far has not shown any reason to be concerned it is anything other than the way he moves due to conformation, rather than an underlying issue, if there was something going on I would have expected a decline in his performance by now not ongoing improvement.

That said one here has always had a question mark to my mind about her work ethic/ performance/ temperament, never enough to pin point or think it was any more than a training/ rider issue that on good days was fine on bad less so, vets involved when she downed tools jumping, various tests/ scans/ xrays all on a 'sound' horse and not much found but the specialist did find a very slight issue in her hock, xrays clear, scan clear, so she has been injected and the change in so many ways is amazing, I suspect she has been wrong for years but she was always sound, the vets said she was sound but she must have been very slightly uncomfortable for a long time and it took one very experienced vet to go almost instinctively to the problem, the other vets were not inexperienced, they were looking for something but it was so subtle even when we knew what we were looking for it was not easy to spot.

Just seen your last post and the mare was always a little lazy in her right hind, that was the one the vet picked up as the issue so it could be the root cause, she used to disunite, and still is during rehab, but in lessons I am picking up that is the rider moving slightly that is causing it now and we are working on getting her straighter along with the horse.

 

[Leo Walker]

it took one very experienced vet to go almost instinctively to the problem, the other vets were not inexperienced, they were looking for something but it was so subtle even when we knew what we were looking for it was not easy to spot.

This has been my experience with the holistic vets I've used. Normal vets will agree theres an issue but without a work up havent been able to pin point it never mind fix it.

 

[Michen]

He looks his normal self in the last video, a little flat but otherwise the canter is as normal never really coming under from behind but that is the same in all paces and always has been, it is better now he is stronger but the hind end never pushes forward in the way it should but that is him, he has enough push to jump, enough to be a very jolly ride and so far has not shown any reason to be concerned it is anything other than the way he moves due to conformation, rather than an underlying issue, if there was something going on I would have expected a decline in his performance by now not ongoing improvement.

That said one here has always had a question mark to my mind about her work ethic/ performance/ temperament, never enough to pin point or think it was any more than a training/ rider issue that on good days was fine on bad less so, vets involved when she downed tools jumping, various tests/ scans/ xrays all on a 'sound' horse and not much found but the specialist did find a very slight issue in her hock, xrays clear, scan clear, so she has been injected and the change in so many ways is amazing, I suspect she has been wrong for years but she was always sound, the vets said she was sound but she must have been very slightly uncomfortable for a long time and it took one very experienced vet to go almost instinctively to the problem, the other vets were not inexperienced, they were looking for something but it was so subtle even when we knew what we were looking for it was not easy to spot.

Just seen your last post and the mare was always a little lazy in her right hind, that was the one the vet picked up as the issue so it could be the root cause, she used to disunite, and still is during rehab, but in lessons I am picking up that is the rider moving slightly that is causing it now and we are working on getting her straighter along with the horse.

Yep and he’s tired in that video so really just lolloping over the cavaletti with A asking very little.

He had a full whack of x rays when he was younger so will have something to compare. I’ve emailed the videos to my vet as well.

Only other thought is a gut issue? I’ve always thought he is a candidate for ulcers because of his disposition, and he’s ridiculously hot (but feels very happy!) to hack right now. However the usual, Shiney, not girthy, great to work. I can’t remember where but feel I’ve read somewhere about hind gut issues reflecting as a lameness.

 

[Michen]

Can you do some flexion tests on him yourself Michen? They really are easy on hind legs. If he passes those and is equally muscled, I'd probably just carry on, since he is happy and jumping well.

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Probably could but honestly think I’d rather spend the money on a vet, could be so subtle I might think he’s fine but not. I’m useless at spotting lameness!

 

[palo1]

Sometimes with gut issues it results in lameness as a horse will not wish to bring the hind legs fully underneath because of the discomfort that may cause in the gut. Of course, that may depend on where and why their gut hurts but it is always worth considering,

 

[Wheels]

Thanks everyone. Ok so.. my dressage instructor (who I use intermittently because, well, that’s how I am with any kind of training!) had always commented on the left hind being “weaker”. But actually mention how improved it was when sharer had a lesson the other day! I’m also not sure this could be a left hind issue when the disuniting means he is landing on the left hind instead of the right- that doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve never really worried about it because I accept that horses have stronger sides and he is evenly muscled.

It might well be a problem with the right hind, bilateral or something in the SI / back.

The thing for me is that you are concerned about this and you will always have a little niggle - it may resolve, it may not, it may get worse therefore I would get the vet to have a look as there is no harm in that

 

[TPO]

Broke my right ankle. I am also terrible at riding straight, there was a thread about it a year or so ago. Boggle will twist when jumping if we get the stride a bit wrong, will throw his legs to the side to not rap it and I think I have contributed to this massively too..
Honestly though I basically just hack and hunt him. I’m not sure I could have schooled or jumped a problem into him because I simply haven’t done enough of it. I’ve jumped him a handful of times and so has his sharer...

You dont have to "train" an issue into a horse, just us sitting on them does that!

We massively underestimate the impact that we have in them.

IIRC correctly you were riding/sitting on while still in a support boot and then back riding without a riding boot on while still healing. Your body would be compensating for additional weight/awkwardness and then weakness so that will transmit to any horse.

Try pushing a wheelbarrow with one side slightly more weighted (how we all have knackered backs!) or with just one big stone in it that tips to one side.

We are all imbalanced and imperfect but expect our horses to be straight and true. If you want to get down to nuances and nitty gritty then it means assessing absolutely everything.

If you already know you are squint and have had a serious injury like your ankle then I'd be booking I to a good physio/?osteo and diligently doing the resistance band rehab exercises that they should give you. A couple of sessions on a simulator and/or a biomechanics trainer would help too.

Also be really particular about saddle fit as an unbalanced (we all are) rider and a compensating horse (they all are) can have a git changing in next to no time.

 

[be positive]

Sometimes with gut issues it results in lameness as a horse will not wish to bring the hind legs fully underneath because of the discomfort that may cause in the gut. Of course, that may depend on where and why their gut hurts but it is always worth considering,

It certainly could explain the way he moves and why he is not a good doer but I would have expected other signs by now, definitely worth investigating, maybe before looking at anything in the limbs as treating that would be in many ways the easy option.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I didn't see this thread when you first posted but even after viewing the first videos, "sacro-iliac" came into my brain and the second set made it even stronger. It could be a weakness thing and he may just need to build up more muscle around the joint. Hopefully a good vet will get you on the right track and find out what the problem is.

 

[Michen]

It might well be a problem with the right hind, bilateral or something in the SI / back.

The thing for me is that you are concerned about this and you will always have a little niggle - it may resolve, it may not, it may get worse therefore I would get the vet to have a look as there is no harm in that

Oh for sure, there’s no question here as to whether I get a vet or not... that’s definitely happening. Just how far I take it if nothing is found on a basic work up.. which is why I’m thinking about the bute trial first to see if I can get a clear cut “this horse is in pain” answer, then I’ll know to continue on if bone scan etc is the only way to get an answer.

 

[Michen]

It certainly could explain the way he moves and why he is not a good doer but I would have expected other signs by now, definitely worth investigating, maybe before looking at anything in the limbs as treating that would be in many ways the easy option.

Yup but he always looks so well and always puts on very easily again in spring and summer. He is a hot head though so it wouldn’t be surprising. He’s probably got more weight on him currently at this time of year than he ever has though!!

 

[Michen]

You dont have to "train" an issue into a horse, just us sitting on them does that!

We massively underestimate the impact that we have in them.

IIRC correctly you were riding/sitting on while still in a support boot and then back riding without a riding boot on while still healing. Your body would be compensating for additional weight/awkwardness and then weakness so that will transmit to any horse.

Try pushing a wheelbarrow with one side slightly more weighted (how we all have knackered backs!) or with just one big stone in it that tips to one side.

We are all imbalanced and imperfect but expect our horses to be straight and true. If you want to get down to nuances and nitty gritty then it means assessing absolutely everything.

If you already know you are squint and have had a serious injury like your ankle then I'd be booking I to a good physio/?osteo and diligently doing the resistance band rehab exercises that they should give you. A couple of sessions on a simulator and/or a biomechanics trainer would help too.

Also be really particular about saddle fit as an unbalanced (we all are) rider and a compensating horse (they all are) can have a git changing in next to no time.

No the boot scratched my saddle so I only did that once I mostly rode without stirrups and when it was “better” I would vet wrap the outside of the boot.

it was definitely weak for a good while but certainly doesn’t give me any issues now. I got signed off by the private physio who never found any reason for me to be generally “squint” either.

Worth another look though, thank you.

 

[be positive]

I am not sure a bute trial is worth doing with something so subtle that only happens in certain situations that you cannot do every day to see if it helps and will be hard to prove one way or another.
He looks well and very fit but is not a typical pony that needs to be dieted all the time he is more like a tb in so many ways.

 

[Wheels]

Oh for sure, there’s no question here as to whether I get a vet or not... that’s definitely happening. Just how far I take it if nothing is found on a basic work up.. which is why I’m thinking about the bute trial first to see if I can get a clear cut “this horse is in pain” answer, then I’ll know to continue on if bone scan etc is the only way to get an answer.

I wouldn't bute trial if I suspected gut problems.

I would go for the initial assessment with the vet, succeed test, possibly scope depending on outcome of succeed test - then it's an ongoing discussion with the vet. I am not sure I would go straight for a bone scan as at this point it could be anything or nothing. A bonescan could give you lots of hotspots or none but might still not get you a diagnosis if its soft tissue and doesnt rule out pain even if there are no hotspots

 

[Rowreach]

It certainly could explain the way he moves and why he is not a good doer but I would have expected other signs by now, definitely worth investigating, maybe before looking at anything in the limbs as treating that would be in many ways the easy option.

This, and your previous comment that he's never properly used his back end/come up under himself, and the side on photos Michen has posted since getting him, and his overall temperament, all would make me investigate.

 

[Michen]

This, and your previous comment that he's never properly used his back end/come up under himself, and the side on photos Michen has posted since getting him, and his overall temperament, all would make me investigate.

What about the photos makes you concerned? Regarding using himself, this is a horse whose never really done any dressage training consistently- so cant really blame him when you couple that with confirmation which doesn’t really help him out either. He’s always been buzzy and hot, pretty much anyone with a Westside Mirah offspring finds the same...

Not making excuses but this is not an “unhappy” overall horse picture IMO (albeit biased). His overall picture is what makes me, and others on here, surprised there’s something wrong.

 

[Rowreach]

What about the photos makes you concerned? Regarding using himself, this is a horse whose never really done any dressage training consistently- so cant really blame him when you couple that with confirmation which doesn’t really help him out either. He’s always been buzzy and hot, pretty much anyone with a Westside Mirah offspring finds the same...

Not making excuses but this is not an “unhappy” overall horse picture IMO (albeit biased). His overall picture is what makes me, and others on here, surprised there’s something wrong.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make you defensive, I was agreeing with be positive's comments given she knows you and Boggle well. And based on a lot of experience of my own. I'll leave you to it.

 

[palo1]

Does Boggle have any beet, alfalfa or grain in his diet? I have found that all of these can make subtle differences to horse's gut comfort, having had a horse that is both intolerant and hugely sensitive. He is also a hot horse that is keen, always looks well though runs up light with work. I am sure you have considered all of these things and feed/guts may be a red herring but I think anecdotally at least, subtle hind limb 'oddnesses' can be resolved through a change in gut health. He is clearly a healthy, well looked after happy chap so whilst a real niggle for you, he is probably not that bothered actually!

 

[Michen]

Sorry, I didn't mean to make you defensive, I was agreeing with be positive's comments given she knows you and Boggle well. And based on a lot of experience of my own. I'll leave you to it.

Not at all I’m interested to hear what you/everyone thinks, hence why I asked and posted. I’m just surprised because I had thought there was a positive difference between him last year and him this year.

I guess I am a bit defensive because I felt that “overall” (and I do not expect perfection as I certainly don’t train it!) I have, or had, a happy fit horse.. and now I’m suddenly wondering if I’m totally deluded.

 

[Michen]

Does Boggle have any beet, alfalfa or grain in his diet? I have found that all of these can make subtle differences to horse's gut comfort, having had a horse that is both intolerant and hugely sensitive. He is also a hot horse that is keen, always looks well though runs up light with work. I am sure you have considered all of these things and feed/guts may be a red herring but I think anecdotally at least, subtle hind limb 'oddnesses' can be resolved through a change in gut health. He is clearly a healthy, well looked after happy chap so whilst a real niggle for you, he is probably not that bothered actually!

Hmmm he is fed entirely on Equerry conditioning mash and ad lib hay. It does have beet in it... this has started since I fed him that (was on basically nothing over summer) But he was on speedibeet last year with no issues.... He’s basically a walking advert for the feed in terms of healthy Shiney picture- this was him in December when hunting weekly.

 

[Wheels]

He is very shiny in the pic, slim but does lack muscle. Your recent thread shows better muscling in the latest picture - the topline is much less angular looking

 

[Michen]

He is very shiny in the pic, slim but does lack muscle. Your recent thread shows better muscling in the latest picture - the topline is much less angular looking

Yep those photos are probably 8 weeks apart I think. He’s got more weight on now so might be more of an illusion from weight gain rather than muscle as he’s not hunted pretty much for 6 of those (ground just too wet for my liking).

 

[Leo Walker]

the equerry conditioning mash says low in starch but I cant find anywhere that says how much

Typical Ingredients: High-Fibre Oat By-Product; Dried Beet Pulp; Wheatfeed; Soya (bean) meal (GM); Oats; Molasses; Full Fat Linseed Meal; Vitamin and Mineral Premix; Soya Oil; Yeast

Those ingredients could well have caused some hind gut discomfort. I know hes really, really fussy, but I'd be swapping him on to something else for a while to see if it helps

 

[palo1]

Well, it's easy enough to cut out beet and/or to entirely simplify a horse's diet. Just speaking for me here but grass nuts have the same energy as some competition mixes etc and/or conditioning feeds like copra. Linseed is also often well tolerated and is a good conditioning feed. As my chap is intolerant to all cereals and is definately sensitive to beet, as well as being horribly fussy and not wanting to eat copra or other things, this is what I use successfully. He is in hard work all winter and variable work through the summer. He is well muscled and eats up well. Boggle is super shiny!! I wouldn't want to derail other lines of enquiry with subtle changes in food but for some horses that is the answer to some very subtle hind-limb abnormalities.