Herd dynamics, it’s like my own soap opera

[BBP]

This is a bit of a brain dump as I’m not sure what I’m hoping to achieve by it.

Horse 1: loves everyone, everyone loves her. Quietly alpha. Easy.

Horse 2: my 4yo Connemara. Poorly boy with liver, gut and who know what other issues. Independent but loves a good wrestle and intimidates any submissive horse with his rugby thug approaches. In a field with horse 1.

Horse 3: the older mare I bought as a riding horse in March and then realised is mentally screwed up so basically became a companion immediately. No social skills with other horses, super submissive but escalates her defences immediately to using both barrels. Loves horse 1. Hates my gelding, got into a kicking match with him and taught him to kick back, both got injured so they now have to be separate. I don’t have a huge amount of love for her at this stage, but feel I owe her a soft landing place as she never asked to come here.

Horse 4: new golden pony. Lovely friendly happy little mare. Slightly lacking in social skills in so much as she doesn’t understand personal space, but sweet and friendly and non-aggressive. Ran her alongside horse 3 for 4 weeks in a separate field, thinking that they would make a good pair. She thinks horse 3 is her best friend in the world and wants to be wherever horse 3 goes. Broke through the fence to be in with her, just because she wants company. Horse 3 hates her. Nailed her with both barrels, luckily up high.

Horse 3 doesn’t go out looking for a fight but hates horse 4 coming too close. Horse 4 desperately wants a friend and is giving herself ulcers as not settling fully.

I can’t put 2 and 3 together or 2 and 4 as neither mare will cope with his rough and tumble ways. But this wet weather has shown me that winter is going to be soooo hard if I can’t keep 3 and 4 together without risking my new girl getting kicked, and I think horse 3 will get more and more grumpy if they are confined in less space.

What the dark side of me would love to do is rehome horse 3 to a companion home where they want a horse to live next to but not in with theirs. She is super polite, an easy keeper but not total restriction. Easy to have around as long as she is kept in her own paddock or with a kind alpha mare, can be left alone whilst you go riding on the other. Then find myself a sweet happy little companion pony that will get along with my sweet happy Arab girl and they can just be pals and life will be fun and easy at last.

But this mare (horse 3) is so shut down and traumatised, I’m only just starting after 6 months to see glimmers of personality, where her eye softens and she looks interested in me. I think I would be utterly heartless to rehome her (even on loan) just because I decided to get a new horse and they don’t get on. She never asked for any of this and when I bought her I made an commitment And there is no guarantee of a new pony being any more straightforward.

It’s just making me sad that new horse isn’t being accepted, and that there is a risk of injury and ulcers. And I’m not set up to keep them all separate through the winter, I really need 2 pairs. Constantly having to watch out for them walking behind her or leading past her is stressful already.

The essence is that I don’t have the massive huge amounts of space needed for horses that would not automatically choose to be pals. So how do I keep them all safe and happy.

Like I say, I don’t know what I want from posting. Maybe it’s the weather making me feel stressed.

 

[BBP]

I’m jealous of how Michens boys have hit it off straight away.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I was having a similar situation in that my little shetland was getting pushed out since my new gelding joined. That added to the weather and winter approaching, I kept an eye out on a Facebook group looking for companions. I knew I would only loan him out and would wait for the 'perfect' home.

A month later a friend of a friend posted looking for a companion. I felt terribly guilty and cried the day before he went but I've not regretted it one day since. He's happy and got a mate, my other two aren't busy bullying him so are more settled and I'm happy that I've got one less to feed in winter and more grass/less mud.

That's a long way of saying, keep an eye out, you might find a home that's suitable for horse 3. You can only do so much and we can't be the perfect home for all of them.

Eta I felt last in, first out *but* my mare loves the gelding and couldn't care less about my little shetland.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think that horse 3 would be a hard rehome as most want a companion in with their horse(s), but I suppose you have the odd person that just wants another horse on their property and not necessarily with their other horse(s). So maybe you could find the right situation with the right person. Might be worth a try, and if nothing pans out, you at least investigated all options. Since she has some mental baggage you would have to make sure it would be the right person taking her on. So odds of finding a good situation for her are rather slim, IMO, but perhaps not impossible.

 

[TheMule]

My gelding is very particular about who he lives with and I loaned his previous companion out when it became really apparent he couldnt be trusted with him. The companion is much, much happier being companion to something else with a friend and my boy is much happier with his new companion

 

[Equi]

Have you ever considered them all in together in the hope the head mate sorts them all out?

 

[TPO]

Easy to say as someone not in the situation I know, but here goes...

Horse 3 has mental trauma but I'd suspect something physical too. Extreme behaviours in a prey animal normally have a root, somewhere, in pain. It may also be a bit of age catching up with her. She doesn't sound like a contented horse.

One of our crocks has been fine (he's mechanically broken but "fine" 1) he's quite thick 2) physio/vet/dental vet/trimmer to keep him well) then 6-8wks ago just spectacularly broke. He is a pasture puff and nothing had changed to male him go from ~3 to 10 on the broken scale. We thought that was it but he's managing fine, so far, on NSAID to keep him as a happy pasture puff. He's only 13 but ex trotter (lots of physical issues show on his body too) and things have definitely come home to roost.

You know far more about everything than me so I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs. I'm sure, as always, you've gone above and beyond for the mare.

Given her mental, and possibly physical, issues, age and winter approaching I'd probably look at pts. She got lucky finding you and I don't think any other home would come close to providing the same awareness that you have for your horses.

I'm only going on what you've written and could have thr wrong impression. I know it's easy to say. When the big eejit, who is a PITA, broke I was devasted at the thought of pts and so far we've found a workable solution that isn't compromising his QoL, ling may that last. Several people said to have him PTS purely for ease and I wanted to punch them in the throat. You're probably feeling thr same way now!

 

[TPO]

Have you ever considered them all in together in the hope the head mate sorts them all out?

Good shout. Horse 4 could maybe thrn be friends with 1 & 2, leaving 3 alone

 

[ihatework]

I’d at the very least put 1,2&4 together
And to be honest I’d likely put 3 down.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Have you ever considered them all in together in the hope the head mate sorts them all out?

I thought about this too, especially if space allows.

 

[Mrs G]

I don’t think rehoming horse 3 would be such a terrible thing to try - and contrary to a previous poster - I think it would be possible that she’d suit someone else as a companion - she’d probably suit my lad for example (gets very attached, esp to mares but isn’t good at sharing food/space). And then you’d have two content horses safe(r) from injury/stress/fighting. In the meantime what about alpha mare, new mare and gelding together, horse 3 next to them but separate?

 

[BBP]

We have planned to put all 4 together, but at this time of year we just don’t have the space to do it safely. And my gelding is just such a ‘boy’ that he actively goes looking for trouble and believes that games should be full contact (thanks to BBP for giving him a bad education!). He galloped after horse 3 and terrified her and then she kicked hell out of him and he retaliated. And that was when they did have space. So I split them. I’m not sure that he wouldn’t try the same with number 4. It takes a certain horse to deal with him, and horse 1 is the master of it. The others just don’t have her self confidence.

I think horse 3 has for the last 10 years been kept in a field on her own (next to others), prior to that she was a seaside driving horse, and most likely a trotter prior to that. I don’t think she has been abused but I’m not sure she has been listened to. She’s a very sweet horse, just nothing behind the eyes a lot of the time, shuts down and won’t let you in. So I just spend time being with her and asking nothing of her and eventually a couple of weeks ago she whiffled my hat for the first time. I feel sad for her a lot of the time, but like I was just starting to make progress.

 

[Bellaboo18]

We have planned to put all 4 together, but at this time of year we just don’t have the space to do it safely. And my gelding is just such a ‘boy’ that he actively goes looking for trouble and believes that games should be full contact (thanks to BBP for giving him a bad education!). He galloped after horse 3 and terrified her and then she kicked hell out of him and he retaliated. And that was when they did have space. So I split them. I’m not sure that he wouldn’t try the same with number 4. It takes a certain horse to deal with him, and horse 1 is the master of it. The others just don’t have her self confidence.

I think horse 3 has for the last 10 years been kept in a field on her own (next to others), prior to that she was a seaside driving horse, and most likely a trotter prior to that. I don’t think she has been abused but I’m not sure she has been listened to. She’s a very sweet horse, just nothing behind the eyes a lot of the time, shuts down and won’t let you in. So I just spend time being with her and asking nothing of her and eventually a couple of weeks ago she whiffled my hat for the first time. I feel sad for her a lot of the time, but like I was just starting to make progress.

She sounds like she'd suit a one to one home? Definitely a hard re-home but I wouldn't write the idea off.

 

[BBP]

Easy to say as someone not in the situation I know, but here goes...

Horse 3 has mental trauma but I'd suspect something physical too. Extreme behaviours in a prey animal normally have a root, somewhere, in pain. It may also be a bit of age catching up with her. She doesn't sound like a contented horse.

One of our crocks has been fine (he's mechanically broken but "fine" 1) he's quite thick 2) physio/vet/dental vet/trimmer to keep him well) then 6-8wks ago just spectacularly broke. He is a pasture puff and nothing had changed to male him go from ~3 to 10 on the broken scale. We thought that was it but he's managing fine, so far, on NSAID to keep him as a happy pasture puff. He's only 13 but ex trotter (lots of physical issues show on his body too) and things have definitely come home to roost.

You know far more about everything than me so I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs. I'm sure, as always, you've gone above and beyond for the mare.

Given her mental, and possibly physical, issues, age and winter approaching I'd probably look at pts. She got lucky finding you and I don't think any other home would come close to providing the same awareness that you have for your horses.

I'm only going on what you've written and could have thr wrong impression. I know it's easy to say. When the big eejit, who is a PITA, broke I was devasted at the thought of pts and so far we've found a workable solution that isn't compromising his QoL, ling may that last. Several people said to have him PTS purely for ease and I wanted to punch them in the throat. You're probably feeling thr same way now!

I think she was pretty contented before I brought the new one in. Horse 1 was alternating fields every 12 hours between the other 2 and everyone seemed very happy with that arrangement. I honestly thought this little Arab would be perfect because she’s so inoffensive. But she is quite high energy I suppose and maybe horse 3 doesn’t feel so safe around her.

I have considered the PTS line of thought, but I feel it would be for my benefit more than because she is at that point. She moves beautifully, we have got her a lot straighter and more balanced with in hand work, and she just enjoys the quiet life where she gets fed treats and left in peace.

 

[Annagain]

I think I'd put 1,2 and 4 in together and keep 3 alongside them for now. Introduce 1 and 4 for a few hours before letting 2 in. Whenever we had a new horse arrive, when introductions were necessary, we'd always introduce them to Archie first. He's a social genius, always bottom of the pile but totally happy to be there and never poses a threat to any other horse. By letting the others push him around and never so much as flickering an ear he gets a very quiet life as they don't feel the need to be nasty to him. As a result he quietly goes about his business with no hassle. Even the little 13hh pony he's been sharing a field with this summer has been bossing him about. The idea behind introducing Archie first was that a dominant horse already has a horse to push around so is less concerned about competing against the others around and a quieter one has a ready made friend.

 

[Hallo2012]

does 3 seem content on her own? can they interact (at her instigation) over the fence?

if yes and yes i would leave her on her own and try the other together.

my 2 are separate as both entire and whilst my new boy is THE sweetest thing in the world and would be happy together, the pony is very much like your number 2 and like full body contact rough and tumble and climbs all over the new boy and just mithers him constantly until he kicks in sheer exasperation and he is twice the height and weight so chances of injury are high.

so separate they remain and both are very settled.

 

[BBP]

does 3 seem content on her own? can they interact (at her instigation) over the fence?

if yes and yes i would leave her on her own and try the other together.

my 2 are separate as both entire and whilst my new boy is THE sweetest thing in the world and would be happy together, the pony is very much like your number 2 and like full body contact rough and tumble and climbs all over the new boy and just mithers him constantly until he kicks in sheer exasperation and he is twice the height and weight so chances of injury are high.

so separate they remain and both are very settled.

That’s exactly him, full on. Rearing, shoulder charging, diving in with sneak attacks that bowl them over. Horse 1 is exceptional at the pivot (so he flies right past) and then manoeuvres her butt to him and reins back, pushing him out of her space like a snowplough. It’s highly effective and he gets the message without anyone getting hurt. 2 minutes later they will be sharing the same mouthful of hay, so he’s lovely when he isn’t wanting to play. I’m just not sure horse 4 is yet ready to take him on.

She definitely has ulcers. Vet has given me a trial run of omeprazole at a low rate but she is sooo pissy if you touch her chest or reach under to do up her rug belly straps, so I think we need to shift from ‘ward them off’ dose rate to full treatment rate. Possibly sucralfate as well. Just as well I got her for a steal as her and my gelding are costing me a fortune. (Hers are definitely caused by moving in stress, she is so busy looking to see what everyone else is up to she just hasn’t taken on enough forage for the last few weeks, despite having 24/7 access, which is . His I have no idea, perhaps linked to his liver and hind gut dysfunction. He also just returned a really high redworm burden which has taken me by surprise. He was really wormy when he arrived from Ireland but has been low for all recent ones. I’m doing something wrong that’s for sure.

 

[Caol Ila]

If you had new mare, older alpha mare, and gelding together, would older alpha mare stop gelding from being a dick to new mare? Especially if you let alpha mare bond with new mare first. Given the Arab is pretty young, the older girl might take her under her wing, then not let anyone else give her sh1t. That doesn't always play out in herd dynamics, but it often does.

 

[BBP]

If you had new mare, older alpha mare, and gelding together, would older alpha mare stop gelding from being a dick to new mare? Especially if you let alpha mare bond with new mare first. Given the Arab is pretty young, the older girl might take her under her wing, then not let anyone else give her sh1t. That doesn't always play out in herd dynamics, but it often does.

Possibly. She would occasionally be the fun police when my 4yo and BBP got carried away. It didn’t happen with the other 3 in together though, they were all together when the kicking matches started.

 

[Caol Ila]

In a perfect world, you could get another gelding for your Connie to play with, but the world sure as hell ain't perfect.

Could you put alpha mare and new mare in a paddock together for like a week or so, try to get them to form a bond? Then turn the three out together? If alpha mare is feeling vaguely attached to and protective over new mare, she might take up the role of 'fun police.'

 

[KittenInTheTree]

I would wonder if the gelding has perhaps been harbouring a clatter of encysted redworm until now. Wrong time of year for that, I know, but the weather has been weird this year, and since when do worms know how to read a calendar anyhow?

As for who goes with who, I'd be inclined to put the younger mare in with the calm older one, crack on with treating the younger one's ulcers, and then add in the less social mare once those two have bonded. That way, the younger one might be less inclined to pester her. Gelding would stay on his own next to them until he grows into his manners. He'd have them as company over the fence at least in the meantime, and you might find a suitable companion for him along the way.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Have you got a rested field you could just let them all out together , and hopefully they’ll be so distracted by new grass , they don’t cause each other much aggro. We always give a new field for intros.

Maybe you need another gelding to entertain the playful one but I think 2 and 4 will make friends.

 

[BBP]

I would wonder if the gelding has perhaps been harbouring a clatter of encysted redworm until now. Wrong time of year for that, I know, but the weather has been weird this year, and since when do worms know how to read a calendar anyhow?

As for who goes with who, I'd be inclined to put the younger mare in with the calm older one, crack on with treating the younger one's ulcers, and then add in the less social mare once those two have bonded. That way, the younger one might be less inclined to pester her. Gelding would stay on his own next to them until he grows into his manners. He'd have them as company over the fence at least in the meantime, and you might find a suitable companion for him along the way.

That might be the option. It’s tricky with how my fields and wet weather hard standing and shelters are set up, but I’ll figure it out. I think if the insecure older mare realises at some point that she is absolutely fine and no threat, then it will all work out pretty well. Yesterday evening the older mare was enjoying a good scratch from me and allowing youngster to sniff her all over, including under her belly, as long as I kept scratching her. If I stopped she would grump. So I think there is potential there, if she can just learn to keep her hind legs grounded whilst they figure things out.

I do wonder if my little gelding will get a bit less aggressive in his playing style once I figure out how to make him feel better. It’s like he starts to play and then gets a bit mad, he even gets annoyed at his own tail hitting him once he gets going.

 

[BBP]

Have you got a rested field you could just let them all out together , and hopefully they’ll be so distracted by new grass , they don’t cause each other much aggro. We always give a new field for intros.

Maybe you need another gelding to entertain the playful one but I think 2 and 4 will make friends.

We are just putting up fencing on winter fields today, so I’m hoping you are right!

I didn’t say on my earlier post but we run track systems with bigger loading areas through summer, and they are definitely NOT good for introductions when you have a submissive or dominant horse. I love them when everyone is settled but not for intros. So we ran her a parallel track for the first 4 weeks and then the heavens opened and they have been confined to hard standing/arena for a lot of the last week as we weren’t ready for winter grazing yet.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

We are just putting up fencing on winter fields today, so I’m hoping you are right!

I didn’t say on my earlier post but we run track systems with bigger loading areas through summer, and they are definitely NOT good for introductions when you have a submissive or dominant horse. I love them when everyone is settled but not for intros. So we ran her a parallel track for the first 4 weeks and then the heavens opened and they have been confined to hard standing/arena for a lot of the last week as we weren’t ready for winter grazing yet.

Ahhh yes tracks are not ideal for introductions but maybe they could have a week on grass, and hope they’ll be so busy stuffing their faces they don’t fight. We also track as 2 fatties but never introduce on it as he becomes protective and charges relentlessly, however if there’s grass he couldn’t give a shiny s***t who speaks to his girlfriend. Although he’s never be the type to share his hay pile so tend to scatter food far apart.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

That might be the option. It’s tricky with how my fields and wet weather hard standing and shelters are set up, but I’ll figure it out. I think if the insecure older mare realises at some point that she is absolutely fine and no threat, then it will all work out pretty well. Yesterday evening the older mare was enjoying a good scratch from me and allowing youngster to sniff her all over, including under her belly, as long as I kept scratching her. If I stopped she would grump. So I think there is potential there, if she can just learn to keep her hind legs grounded whilst they figure things out.

I do wonder if my little gelding will get a bit less aggressive in his playing style once I figure out how to make him feel better. It’s like he starts to play and then gets a bit mad, he even gets annoyed at his own tail hitting him once he gets going.

My big roan used to play very roughly as a young horse, but I was lucky enough to have another gelding the same age and height who enjoyed the same games. They both grew out of the rough play by around the end of their fifth year.

 

[sollimum]

I bought a 4 year old cob x connie last year and he had to live with my calm alpha gelding as I didn't want him hurting anyone and 4 months on I was able to integrate him into the herd.

I have owned him for nearly 18 months now and have sorted out his lots of his physical issues which were triggered by stress - movement through lots of dealers yards - he had thrush, bad m and s, a very deep rooted sarcoid and a sore stomach/hind gut - all linked. The other day I watched him let me catch the others, saunter over and have a scratch before he came in - he is not like that every day, he sometimes waits but quietly to be the first in and the others just let him get on with it. A lot of his attitude is/was linked to him generally feeling rubbish both physically and mentally. So I guess that it will all settle down, as both the gelding and your new mare feel less insecure - it sounds like the mare just wants to be left alone because she is not in the place mentally to cope.

I know you know all of this though - so I think it is managing them all now if you can and rethinking as they settle down. Good luck I know it is not easy especially with winter looming.