Herd Politics Gone Wrong

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shellonabeach

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I'm very upset tonight and would be very grateful for any advice. Apologies in advance but this is going to be long...

I have 3 horses, 16.2 ISH mare aged 11, 14.2 welsh x TB gelding aged 21 and a Shetland cross mare aged approx 25 they live in a closed herd with my friends 15hh cob mare aged 16 on a yard we rent.

They have all lived together for 3 years, the herd order is 1) 16.2 mare 2) 14.2 gelding 3) 15hh cob 4) Shetland cross (the 16.2 was the last in and previous to that the gelding was the boss). The 16.2 and 14.2 are rather passive bosses and rule by face pulling or if pushed they will run at the others face pulling or leg wave but never bite or kick out. The cob can be mean to the Shetland and has tried to bite her and kicked out and regularly chases her but this is managed by making sure the Shetland cannot be cornered etc

They all live out 24/7 all year round, in the summer all 4 live together and in the winter my 3 are together with the cob separate (she has a dust allergy and needs to be kept differently to the others). In the summer we feed out in the field and have never had a problem, they have a routine, get their buckets put down in herd order with no fighting or bother. The bigger 3 all groom together and they all sleep together etc and are generally a happy little herd.

My friends cob has always been difficult when it comes to new horses, she cannot be hacked with new horses as she is a nightmare, and when my 16.2 mare arrived she was very aggressive, kept the Shetland in the hedge at the bottom of the field for a couple of weeks to keep her away from the new arrival and spent 2 months trying to double barrel my big mare through the fence. We cannot have friends horses come on the yard as the cob mare gets very difficult.

My gelding went to a friends house for the weekend just gone to keep her 3yr old filly company when she took her older mare away for the weekend.

My gelding was very happy to come home last night, I popped him in a small paddock with my big mare they had a sniff and a squeal and all fine. Put them back in the main paddock with the cob and the Shetland and the cob was a bit silly with him, barging into his space, squealing turning her bottom on him but all just seemed a overly flirty.

Fast forward to tonight I go to feed and find the cob is keeping my gelding away from the gate (they normally all wait quietly by the gate). I put down teas in odd order of 1) 16.2, 2) cob, 3) gelding, 4) Shetland and before the Shetlands bucket was on the floor the cob was chasing my gelding off his bucket (hers still full). I then stood guard over him and his tea with the cob running circles around him trying to bully him off his food. Once tea was over she proceeded to chase him all over the field and any time he stood still she turned her bottom on him and tried to double barrel him. He didn't stand up for himself at all. This went on for about half an hour.

I got so upset that I had to ask my friend to put the cob on her own in the winter field. She thinks the cob has come into season due to my gelding coming home, she is a tart bless her and used to come into season whenever she hacked out with a gelding but hasn't shown any seasons for at least a couple of years (hasn't hacked with any new geldings and wasn't interested in my gelding after she had lived with him for a couple of months!)

Now I'm at a loss as to where we go next. We have had no problems with reintroductions after winter. I have told my friend if the herd order doesn't go back to how it was with the 16.2 and the gelding at the top then the horses will have to be kept separate as I am not prepared to risk my gelding getting injured, the cob is fully shod and is IMO a nasty bully. I'm hoping a few days with my other 2 will see him getting his mojo back and the cob calming down.

Of course if we get them back together I will be worried about taking him away again (was planning a long weekend at the beach next month).

Apologies again for the length and if you have already read this on another forum!

Has anyone had a similar situation? Any words of advice, wisdom or general reassurance would be great.
 
Electric fencing and separate them with it. None of mine graze actually in with one another but can touch over the fences and stable doors. As far as I'm concerned, if they can have some physical contact and are in close proximity, there's no problem to keeping them 'apart'.

In the wild there are no fences and therefore much less opportunity for cornering and blocking. However large the field they are in, there's a chance this may happen.

If it was MY horse doing the bullying, I'd have it out of there before you could ask me to!

Not worth the risk of injury IMO.
 
Bully - out! Asap.

Agree with everything Brighteyes said, it simply isn't worth the risk :(
I've lost one horse and others badly injured because bullies weren't taken out in good time. Better safe than sorry.
 
I have to agree with the other posters.
Its not worth risking your gelding or the shetland, one day she might catch him.
I cant imagine that the mare is going to improve when you take the gelding out again and try putting him back
Your friend knows the mare is a problem, and tbh im surprised she hasnt already separated her.
Kx
 
I have a wonderful large herd that all live together 24/7.

But if I threw buckets of feed into their pasture it would be handbags at dawn ... I couldn't guarantee the safety of any horse.

I bring mine out for feeding and feed them away from the fence.

The cob sounds very insecure, possibly because there are times of the year she is on her own and isn't very sure about her place or role in the herd.
 
That is a lot to feed together in the field. I feed three, but I put the bossy greedy top mare in a separate paddock first. The next "down" is my Arab, who has more food anyway, so he and his friends get their buckets by the fence. Bottom horse has finished before Arab wants to investigate his tea.
Another thought is that, when you did feed in the field, you didn't take account of the fact that the pecking order had changed, even if it was going to be temporary. I might have tried putting the buckets down in the order that the horses came forward, and making sure that there was plenty of space around the mare. Really though, I'd take her out before feeding if the others are normally fine with each other. She's not being bolshy for the sake of it, her herd has been stirred up twice in a short period of time, and she may be finding it all quite stressful.
The behaviour you are describing is quite normal for a horse that is very aware of her "herd" and that is dealing with a change to the group. Only you can tell, but you need to watch the argy bargy calmly and decide if anyone is likely to get hurt. A lot of this isn't about making contact, she's just sorting things out. The fact that your gelding was only away for a couple of days has nothing to do with it.
You've said yourself that it has taken a couple of weeks to settle in the past, that might be the case again. I think it would be unreasonable to insist that the mare gets taken out if the herd pecking order doesn't return to the situation you percieved it to be before your gelding went away. It would be more reasonable to want the group to settle again, regardless of what "pecking order" they sort out between them.
I would set up a situation where the mare can be taken out of the field before feeding and everyone can eat their food in peace. Also, because I could be accused of being a Fluffy Bunny I would consult the Bach Flower Remedy info in my local chemist and select a couple of remedies that I think might fit the bill for the mare and start giving half a dozen drops in her feed, and on apples or similar as often as possible during the day.
But... if you think a horse is in danger maybe you'll have to separate them. I'm just saying that it's worth bearing in mind why this is happening, and how it settled down fine in the past.

p.s. MissTyc has a good point about this mare feeling insecure. She's kept for long periods of time on her own, many horses tend to be a bit anti-social from the human point of view when they go back in with others. I can understand that you can't avoid this, but I think it's fair to recognise that with the best will in the world, some of this situation is man-made.
 
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They will probably settle again in a few days and it's no big deal to feed 4 horses in a paddock together. I used to feed seven all together - you just had to get on with dropping off the feeds and I did this by leaving feed bins in the paddock and bringing the feed into the paddock in old feed sacks - you can carry more easily and just upend the bag into the bowl quickly.

I used to graze 32 horses and ponies together in 5 acres paddocks and only had the odd horse that made trouble
 
I've been involved in feeding I think it was 11 horses in a field, and that was a bit hectic! I'm not saying that it isn't possible to feed 4 horses in a field, I am saying that you need to take into account the herd dynamic and consider the horses as individuals. In this case it obviously causes problems for this mare and the result is that she's being called a "bully" and may end up living on her own. Therefore I'd reduce the stress in the situation for her by taking her out and putting her back in when the others had finished and wandered off. I'd also leave their bowls down until she had gone back in and had a chance to check them out. A diversionary tactic possibly.
 
Cob mare sounds unsettled and stressed. And totally agree with others about a horse living on their own for even just a while: it can totally mess with their head. We have one who is exactly the same as the cob mare for that reason.

Firstly i'd have the mare on a mare supplement as it can really help with season related problems.

Then i'd either 1) put the gelding and cob mare together in a separate field until they bond (no other friends means nothing to fight for. Don't feed them in the field!) or 2) let them sort it out (back shoes off the cob mare if poss and no feeding in the field!)

Also, has the cob mare's feed changed? Alfalfa can make some mares unmanageably aggressive.
 
I have tried to reply to this 3 times now and HHO keeps kicking me out!

Thank you to all those who replied.

The gelding has been above the cob for 4 years, big mare came along 3 years ago and took top spot, no fighting with my gelding he just accepted she was boss. We have never had a problem feeding in the field before, everyone knew their places in the herd and the buckets went down in hierachy order and feed amounts meant the lower ranking finished before the higher, never any fighting or swapping feeds etc. This wasn't just a group who tolerated each other they all groom one another (to the point of having large sections of missing mane!)

I think there is a valid point here that cob is stressed / not happy and insecurity may well be part of that. She has no leadership and therefore trust in her owner, the horse is in charge of her owner both in and out of the saddle.

This is the additional problem cob mare has very little manners or respect for people (her owner can't see it though)

I am worried that if she is not kept in place by my big mare and gelding that she will become very difficult to handle because my horses respect people and she in turn respects them. During the winter when the cob was on her own she became very difficult kicking and biting at her owner when she was being rugged to the point I refused to do her rugs because I did not want the hassle.

I do the odd bit of groundwork with the cob if leading her and am boss of her but it is a place I have to battle with her for as she will not think twice about invading personal space, unlike with my horses who are always respectful. If I am at a disadvantage say pushing a barrow of hay out she will take advantage and try to jostle me, steal off the barrow etc

Because of the way this cob mare dominates, ie is IMO a nasty bully, I am not prepared to have her take position over my gelding. She is dominant over the Shetland but seems to regularly have to "remind" her of this by chasing her or threatening her. If the herd cannot quietly return to the normal order then the cob will have to stay on her own.

The cob has huge chunky legs and shod hooves and my gelding has little TB size legs and is unshod, there is no way I am going to risk him being kicked by her it is simply not worth it.
 
Echo what others have said. This mare has issues, probably caused by the separation. She is obviously very insecure. There have been occasions where horses have killed others by cornering them and kicking them. I expect that the mare enjoyed being second in the herd hierachy whilst your boy was away, and there was no way she was going to let him go back into that position. Also, there is the issue of his age. He is at an age now when he will be in decline and will not want to fight for his position any more. It is a natural thing with horses that the oldies gradually lose their ranking. However, if it were me, I would not want that mare in the field. I certainly would not want her back in with shoes on.
 
Tried to edit but couldn't, obviously if the cob is re-introduced and all is ok with my gelding we won't be feeding her in the field with the others anymore.

She just gets a little happy hoof, her owner won't buy her any supplements.

The summer field is 4 acres and we strip graze as they are all fatties, it really is essential that the herd dynamics are stable or the same fighting over bucket feed will occur over the new section of grass as well (cob is very food orientated). If the herd dynamics do not return to normal we have plenty of room for her to have her own section of the summer field where she can touch the others but not harm anyone.
 
The summer field is 4 acres and we strip graze as they are all fatties, it really is essential that the herd dynamics are stable or the same fighting over bucket feed will occur over the new section of grass as well (cob is very food orientated).
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you just hit the nail on the head there ....... our 4 have a stable herd structure and do jostle about when we move the leccy fencing ......... and its only because there are no changes being made by us humans that they manage this with only earflicking or head tossing. We too observe an order that never changes in presenting the feed buckets.




I do feel for the cob mare as she does seem to have to deal with a lot of changes on a fairly regular basis ... so its not surprising really I suppose that she is trying to reestablish where she fits in.


However .

I suppose if they were my horses I would take shoes off the cob ( maybe if her owner really keen on her staying in herd she will agree to this)

and maybe give her (cob .... or owner too .... or even yourself :D ) some aromatic oils ( fully paid up fluffy bunny here :p .... but if anyone finds lavender oil relaxing then remember that ;)). Rose oil is good for stress.


if she really is not settling with her food will she come out to be fed seperately as others suggested.


I would seperate them totally only as a last resort ..... but having said that it they all settle when its tried then maybe it suits them :cool:
 
Having owned a bully we ended up keeping him separate. He was fine over electric fencing but a nightmare in with others. We were encouraged time and again to put him with others and it never worked for any length of time. He was very affectionate to us but so aggressive with other horses it was frightening to watch. He seriously meant to injure them. Sometimes he would go in with another horse and be fine for a week or month or two but then for no obvious reason he would "turn" and the play would escalate into proper aggression. We refused to try after a couple of really nasty episodes where he could have badly injured another horse.

The owner of the cob needs to accept her horse causes a problem and take her out. If I was you I would not risk my horses, you cannot undo an injury.
 
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