HHO Fount of Knowlege, I Need You

[LadySam]

Please, if you would be so kind, tell me what you know about the £ value of very elite level dressage horses. Sales prices are near impossible to research because the upper-end deals tend to be done very privately, but I need to get some actual names and figures. PM me if you like. I will keep the information private if you require.

I specifically mean Olympic and WEG level horses. Maybe not the mega-names like Valegro and Totilas, but the horses who compete against them.

Please and thank you if you can help.

 

[be positive]

Unless someone has been directly involved any replies you get will be guesses, hearsay or rumour because most deals at the top level will be private and not out there in full view which is why your research is proving impossible.
Owners do not want to tell the public how much they buy or sell their top horses for and why should they it really is none of our business unless we are in the market for one and then we can find out for ourselves, I may need a lottery win first as it will be a high 6 or more likely 7 figure sum for a horse at the top of it's game.

 

[ycbm]

We know that an Olympic eventer, Cooley Rourkes Drift, sold for half a million last year. I believe dressage horses of the same level go for a lot more. Eventing doesn't attract the same level of wealthy owners as dressage or show jumping.

I would expect to pay around a million, maybe, if it was young (ten/eleven) and sound.

 

[Shay]

As BP said -I'm afraid you are only likely to get speculation. These deals are done privately and the paid value seldom, if ever, known. If you are looking to buy a horse of this level contact a suitable agent.

 

[LadySam]

Unless someone has been directly involved any replies you get will be guesses, hearsay or rumour because most deals at the top level will be private and not out there in full view which is why your research is proving impossible.

I know! I mentioned myself they're done privately. This is why I'm asking around. I'm hoping to find either someone who has been involved, or knows someone, or has seen something in the equine media that I haven't, or can point me in the right direction.

Owners do not want to tell the public how much they buy or sell their top horses for and why should they it really is none of our business

Yep, exactly. But the problem is that it is my business at the moment. Here's my dilemma: I'm working on revaluing a horse for a client and I need to present a case, like a lawyer in a courtroom. We have a value in mind which we agree is realistic. I've got breeding and competition results to back me up, but sales of similar horses is a final piece of evidence that would be very useful. I may have to present the case without it, but before I do I'm attempting to find out what I can.

Both client and horse have competed at Olympic level. Not in the medals but respectable results. Chances are they will go again. Unusually, client owns, keeps, trains and competes the horse themselves. They bought it as a youngster and brought it on, so the horse's only sale price is long ago and irrelevant. I'm simply trying to find if there is any info out there on sales prices/values of this horse's peers.

I know I probably won't find anything useful. But if I don't ask I'll never know.

 

[LadySam]

We know that an Olympic eventer, Cooley Rourkes Drift, sold for half a million last year. I believe dressage horses of the same level go for a lot more. Eventing doesn't attract the same level of wealthy owners as dressage or show jumping.

I know, right? Elite dressage horse prices defy all logic!

I would expect to pay around a million, maybe, if it was young (ten/eleven) and sound.

I agree, I think this is very accurate. Some proof would be useful though!

 

[ycbm]

Could you give me a week to win the lottery? It sounds just like a horse I'd like to buy!

I always thought the way these sales went was that you told the 'market', through contacts, that the horse was for sale and wait to see who offers most. Can you put that approach to your client or do they insist on a price being set? It seems to me that they could be losing out on a competition between two very rich daddies in the lesser dressage countries who want to see their darling at the Olympics and think this horse will do it for them.

 

[LadySam]

ycbm, they're not looking to sell. They want to hang onto it. Very special horse. This is for insurance purposes.

Your thoughts on how it works is correct, hence my challenge. One does occasionally hear of solid prices for very elite dressage youngsters (around 5-ish year olds) but proof for the more seasoned ones is hard to come by.

 

[ycbm]

Oh crikey! How do you value that!?!?! I think the way that's done is to put whatever value you like on the beast, because the Insurance company argues afterwards about what the market value was at the time of death or LOU, because that value can change at any time during the policy.

But I might be teaching you to suck eggs on that one? Not that I'm calling you my granny

Can you do anything using CRD/Art's known value, and add a multiplier based on the cost of semen from an Olympic event sire compared with the cost of semen of an Olympic dressage sire? And auction fees for elite three and four year olds, which should be public?

I'm guessing that would give you a multiplier of around 1.5/2 and an insurance value of 750,000-1m. Maybe more of its a mare, definitely even more if it's a stallion.


I'd be very interested to know why the owner wants to insure for market value. These horses are rarely sold, and they aren't likely to be able to buy a replacement. Not that I think something you've trained up yourself is replaceable at all. In their shoes, I'd be insuring for the cost of an elite five or six year old, ready to train up the levels.

 

[LadySam]

But I might be teaching you to suck eggs on that one? Not that I'm calling you my granny

Little bit. It pays to keep your eye on that and do your justification of value homework.

Can you do anything using CRD/Art's known value, and add a multiplier based on the cost of semen from an Olympic event sire compared with the cost of semen of an Olympic dressage sire? And auction fees for elite three and four year olds, which should be public? I'm guessing that would give you a multiplier of around 1.5/2 and an insurance value of 750,000-1m. Maybe more of its a mare, definitely even more if it's a stallion.

That's how I'm going to have to go, I think. Something like that.

I'd be very interested to know why the owner wants to insure for market value. These horses are rarely sold, and they aren't likely to be able to buy a replacement. Not that I think something you've trained up yourself is replaceable at all. In their shoes, I'd be insuring for the cost of an elite five or six year old, ready to train up the levels.

As a great man once said: You may well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[gunnergundog]

We know that an Olympic eventer, Cooley Rourkes Drift, sold for half a million last year.

Not so.

 

[DiNozzo]

Was there not a price put on Uthopia when the ownership thing came up? I think I remember an article giving a ball park price but I can't remember what it was!


Yes here it was:

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/carl-hester-unable-secure-uthopia-541902

For auction and not a private sale which would have had some bearing on the price (plus rumoured soundness issues).

 

[LadySam]

Ah, thanks DiNozzo. I'd forgotten about that. That was quite a bargain, really. And then at the other end you've got Totilas at around 22 mil. It's a broad scale.

 

[Rowreach]

I find it odd that anyone would want to insure a high value horse, which they are not going to sell, for its perceived monetary value, and presumably pay huge premiums for the privilege I'd be more inclined to value it based on what it cost to buy and produce to that level at this point in time.

"Value" is such a strange concept. I suppose in this instance it is a bit like a model or actor insuring their legs - they are looking at the length of time they could reasonably be earning money before their legs get old and saggy, times the amount of money they could expect to earn each year ... and presumably the value depreciates as the legs get older. So the value of your client's horse depends on its age, predicted length of time it could stay at that level, its sex and future usefulness in that regard, the likelihood of anyone else being able to get it to perform at that level (since it is home produced and ridden), but it is not going to actually "earn" anyone anything, apart from kudos ...

 

[AdorableAlice]

As someone who writes reports for court hearings my first advice for the OP would be to put spell check on.

It is not possible to value a horse. especially a gelding, at top level, it will fetch whatever an elite owner is willing to pay for it and it is also worth remembering that at world class level a dressage horse will be a fair age, unlikely to be sound enough to pass stringent vetting procedures and very likely a tricky ride for someone who has not been involved with its rise to fame.

A mare or stallion by/out of top class proven lines might be easier to value given the potential of breeding from, but the same thoughts as above would apply.

A insurance company will have the same views on insuring soundness or lack of with a 10k or 500k horse and they certainly won't factor in the possibility of it going to the olympics in the future. There have been plenty of horses with sales agreed at eye watering prices only for the sale to go splatt when the x rays show a horror story about to happen. A fact which takes us back to the horse only being worth what someone will pay for it and that is why you won't see truly elite horses advertised for sale or information on prices paid.

 

[LadySam]

As someone who writes reports for court hearings my first advice for the OP would be to put spell check on.

My spelling? This shall not stand! What did I misspell? Fount? A fount is a source. A font is a reservoir. Or a typeface.

It is not possible to value a horse.

I respectfully disagree. It's part of my job, for one. As you say yourself, a horse will fetch what someone is willing to pay for it. That's market value, and all I'm trying to find out. I know that very elite horses aren't advertised, I know why they aren't advertised and I know that people who know this stuff are rarely willing to talk. It's very much a closed shop. Nonetheless, I thought it worth a try to cast a line to see if there is any insider knowledge on here and if so, if anyone is willing to talk. I have the competition results, breeding potential, vet reports, all that at hand to make the case. I know I'm probably on a hiding to nothing, but I'd just like to try to get a final piece of pricing evidence if I can.

A insurance company will have the same views on insuring soundness or lack of with a 10k or 500k horse and they certainly won't factor in the possibility of it going to the olympics in the future. There have been plenty of horses with sales agreed at eye watering prices only for the sale to go splatt when the x rays show a horror story about to happen.

Oh my, so true. I'm well aware of underwriters' attitudes towards these things, hence the effort in putting together as solid and well researched a case as possible. I've personally advised clients not to purchase horses on viewing x-rays. When a sale has gone splatt and the seller has gone ballistic, I've likewise supported clients who have backed out of sales for that reason by continuing to negotiate with underwriters to prove the horse is uninsurable.

 

[Cortez]

I know some stuff (and I also know that fount is correct, BTW); I know that I cared for a $700,000 GP horse in the early '90's (that dropped dead one day for no apparent reason), I know that a 13 year old competitive GP dressage horse, not necessarily guaranteed Olympic material, was sold to Malaysia for €1.2 million in the last 18 months (saw the bank transfer docs). And I know that Totilas was NOT sold for 22 million, far less than that. But it's very much a pick-a-number with these things.

 

[Rowreach]

Definitely fount Font always really annoys me ...

 

[AdorableAlice]

Who said fount was incorrect, I didn't.

 

[Flummoxed]

"Knowlege" on the other hand.... But, AA " A Insurance company"? Tut tut!

 

[AdorableAlice]

"Knowlege" on the other hand.... But, AA " A Insurance company"? Tut tut!

I will administer my own slap........very poor show !

 

[DabDab]

I think it will be hard to pin down a solid piece of evidence for the sale of one horse, let alone enough to provide a context for the value of a horse that has never been for sale...for example, I could give you names of some international sjers and what they sold for (okay, so sj instead of dressage and a good 15 years out of date now ), and say that I am absolutely certain of what they sold for, but that's not really evidence is it?