Hi Im New! And a question about gelding a stallion please

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Melissa123

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Hi Everyone :)

I am sorry to post so soon however I need some advise please.(it maybe long!)
At the livery yard where I keep my horse they have recently turned out a horse who was gelded about 5/6 weeks ago. He is about 10 years old and was covering mares.
He went into the field and is behaving very stallion like, (as expected) he has inflicted horrible bite wounds / kick marks on most of the horses.
There is only one mare in the field and he is being very protective over.The rest of the horses are geldings. He will not let the mare go over to the hay and sticks by her all the time. When she tries to move away he 'herds' her into the corner of the field. He has brought the mare into season as well and her owner nearly got kicked trying to bring her in so decided to just leave her out.
One of the liveries approached the yard owner but she didnt really say much back to him. ??
Will he settle down? I am not experienced with stallions and could really do with some advice as I am nervous to go into the field to get my horse at the moment.
Thank you in advance for any advice , tea and bourbons for everyone :)
 
Ok, having had two late cut stallions and experienced looking after others I would caution you. If this horses mentality is to be dominant and aggressive IME its likely he will never be totally trustworthy around other horses. Ive seen awful wounds (including to a gelding of mine) inflicted even years after gelding.

I know a lot of the breeding folks here (might be worth posting this in that section too) will have stories about horses turning into angels after a month or so but if a horse shows this much aggression I suspect he will always try to be a dominant character.
 
I'm not experienced enough to offer advice, but this situation does sound irresponsible. I don't know who I feel most sorry for, the poor mare, the other horses or the owners too intimidated to go in the field! I hope someone here can give you good advice.
 
FionaM12 said:
I'm not experienced enough to offer advice, but this situation does sound irresponsible. I don't know who I feel most sorry for, the poor mare, the other horses or the owners too intimidated to go in the field! I hope someone here can give you good advice.
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Thank you, it is very scary at the moment!!
 
It was very irresponsible for the yard owner to turn him loose in a field of horses. I doubt he has had much socialisation as a mature stallion. Castrating him is not going to instantly remove the testosterone and hormones running through his body so he is bound to be interested in the mares still and defensive against other males. It is unfair on the mare if she is not being allowed access to the hay, I would not be very happy for her to be in that situation if she was mine. Stallions can also remain fertile for around a month after being cut, are you sure of the dates he was done?

Some stallions settle down after castration, some remain the same. Having been bred from he will most likely retain some stallion like behaviour.
 
Slightly different, but there was a youngster at the yard I am at that was cut as at rising four, (not sure whether he had covered or not...) and it took him a few months to calm down, and become more normal to handle.
To turn out, he was on his own for a while as he was either very dominant or he was too playful and tore holes in rugs, got over keen with biting etc. (which was more common)
He is out with another gelding (very mellow) now and he gets on fine with him and he is much calmer! He has just turned five.

I hope that helps, I think that he should calm down, I believe it takes a reasonable amount of time for all the testosterone to leave the body
 
All i have been told is that he was gelded 5/6 weeks ago but cannot be for certain as he was not at the yard (he arrived about a week ago and was kept in)
I am worried for my horse as he is high up in the peking order and has had some nasty bites and kicks from this new horse :(
I am not sure what the mares owner is going to do but the mare is unhappy as everytimes she moves she either has him following her or making her stay up the other end of the field to the other horses :(
Should i speak to the other liveries or speak to the y/m tbh I am NOT a confrontational person in any way, even speaking to the y/m makes me nervous and to be fair she is lovely and approachable.
 
I think you should speak to your yard manager, if he is being so aggressive that people are afraid to enter the field something needs to be said before an accident happens.

If you have any friends at the yard who are more confident in these situations you could always broach the subject with them first and ask for some advise on how to approach the situation.
 
To turn this horse out in your existing herd is downright irresponsible and I would be either asking the YO/horseowner to remove him or moving my own horse. Its not fair on the other horses, owners or the recently gelded horse as he will have little idea how to socialise.
 
At 10 years old that's alot of years of learned and natural behaviour instilled in this horse, do you know if he was an active stud stallion? Of those I've seen gelded late they will always remain 'stallion like' in attitude, temperament etc, just unable to get anything in foal. As a stallion this horse would not have been out in a mixed herd, if he was in with mares, there would have been no geldings for competition. Similarly if he wasn't turned out with mares for covering, the only contact he'd have had with them would be when he was on covering duties, so socialisation with them is new in a field arrangement. I think for the YO to allow or if theirs to put this horse into an established herd with no field to field prior socialisation is irresponsible, to put a recently gelded 10 yr old out with a mare with geldings present full stop is also irresponsible and likely to cause injury. You need to all speak to the owner and stress the danger of this situation.

Regarding can he fertilise, a stallion/colt can remain fertile for I believe up to 6-8 weeks after gelding, though towards the end of that period his fertility will be seriously diminished! Although sperm from the testicles is removed, 'little swimmers'!! can remain in the tubes for the above period of time.
 
I am shocked this horse owner is acting so irresponsibly - they should not own a horse if they are this dumb!!!!!
Having had a couple of breeding stallions cut late, mine ran with mares or geldings before so were no problem at all, but this situation is a disaster waiting to happen!! I would get this horse away from the others before he seriously injures someone or another horse.

Some late cut stallions turn into dopes very quickly and can be chucked out with anything - BUT these are usually the type that were so horizontal before they were cut that they are now even more so! - or stallions that have had a pretty normal life ie. turnout and run with mares or a bachelor herd, and that have impeccable manners around other horses - not ones that are isolated from very young and only brought out of their cage to cover or compete - they have no social skills at all and are likely to never be completely normal as they missed the important lessons when young.

If you have a stallion who is a dominant horse to start with they should not be turned out with anything if they have not done so previously, and only introduced to other horses very gradually via secure double fencing over several months or more and only under supervision with several people in protective clothing. Plus it takes months for the hormones to get out of the system after gelding, even though they are infertile after 6 weeks, so I would not turn out with others until winter anyway when the testosterone is naturally low and the mares cycles are winding down.
Also behavior learnt as a stallion will often continue even when gelded - so fence running, aggression, guarding mares will often persist until the day they die, usually to a lesser degree and it does decrease over the years, but it will always be there, that is why gelding before these characteristics have a chance to possibly appear is the preferred option rather than leaving colts until sexually mature.

Some ex-stallions will never get on with geldings and are only fine with mares no matter what you do, some that have been isolated can't interact with other horses at all so just having one in a next door paddock is enough, so turning a horse out like this into a mixed herd is SERIOUSLY irresponsible and dangerous, the owner should be paying any vet bills that occur/loss of use/permanent injuries as a consequence and should have the necessary insurance to cover any injury/death to people as a result of their ignorance!!!
This is a VERY serious situation and it needs resolving asap - get all owners who have horses in that field - mare owner included, and corner whoever owns this horse and have a serious word with them! I'd also make sure everyone is kept out of the field until this horse is taken out!!! I feel sorry for the poor horse - as far as he is concerned he is a dominant stallion in a field full of stallions and there is one mare that he has possession of and he will defend her, he must be very stressed and pretty exhausted too, it is also making his chances of ever being able to go out with geldings less of a likely option!!!!
 
I know he was an active stallion as his owner has told other liveries this.
As a stallion he was just kept in a stable 24/7 with another stallion next to him. They were both well away and out of sight of other horses (This was at a different yard)
I am very concerned now as I think the Y/M thinks he will settle down in a few weeks.
He literally has no other field to go in as the yard is full.
We havent actually seen his owner since she turned him out a few days ago. (This isnt unusual though)
Our y/m is very laid back so I am nervous about approaching her and not being taken seriously.
I think I will pull a few of the liveries together tonight and have a word, ask someone more confident to approach y/m.
The mares owner will want to bring her in tonight as well. So that will cause problems.
He also seems to be guarding the gate , so if he is at the gate we cant bring / turn out our horses as they get a kick in from him :(
 
If that is the horses history then he has no learned socialisation with other horses and 10 years of anti-social and instinctive behaviour to overcome which is not going to be an instant fix if it is fixable ever! I can't believe any responsible, knowledgeable YM/YO would allow a recently castrated older stallion on the yard if there aren't the available facilities to manage it!! Speechless....... I would be fuming if I were in your situation, good luck with speaking to the other liveries and hope you get a suitable outcome.

Sometimes people astound me. I remember when I was 16 on a yard with my mare, a new livery arrived with an entire 2 year old appy x cart horse, it went into the next field to my mare. I raised my concerns to the owner and YO and the colt owner said 'well who's to say he would even fancy your mare'!!!! ................ I simply said he's either moved or we move..... He was then moved further away from my mare!
 
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Why not print off the responses you have had here. It might help if your laid back YO can see that strangers are giving you experienced advice.

Your YO does need to consider that he has a duty of care to all the animals on the yard and by ignoring this situation he could open himself up to prosecution in law if there is an acident/incident.

Bear in mind that knowing this horse is potentially dangerous and not doing anything to protect him and the others may also nulify any insurance cover you and the YO have.
 
I think Alexart has summed up the situation perfectly. Print out the reply and show it to everyone at the yard.

Possibly the new owner was led to believe by the seller that the horse would just turn into a dopey gelding the minute he was done.
 
competitiondiva said:
If that is the horses history then he has no learned socialisation with other horses and 10 years of anti-social and instinctive behaviour to overcome which is not going to be an instant fix if it is fixable ever! I can't believe any responsible, knowledgeable YM/YO would allow a recently castrated older stallion on the yard if there aren't the available facilities to manage it!! Speechless....... I would be fuming if I were in your situation, good luck with speaking to the other liveries and hope you get a suitable outcome.
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Totally agree.
My boy was cut late, and was used as a covering stallion for the 6 or so years he was entire. As a stallion, he wasn't kept in ideal conditions, and as such was a very frustrated and bargy individual.
He moved yards about 5 weeks after he was gelded, but I asked for, and was given a field on his own, (but access to other horses over the fence) as he was an unknown quantity, and my YO was sensible enough not to want to risk other horses.
He calmed down very quickly, despite having been a very "stallionish" stallion. Once we were satisfied that he was ok, he went out with a series of fieldmates, mainly without incident, and although he has always been the boss of the field, he doesn't bully/pester other horses at all. Any learned behaviour has pretty much vanished, although he still has his moments. He is actually better behaved with mares than a lot of the other geldings on the yard, and is the only one that shows no interest at all when mares come into season.
Obviously I was lucky.
In your situation, I would be mortified at the YO's ingnorance/ stupidity, and I feel for you and the other liveries. You really need to get your heads together and get YO to sort it out before some serious damage is done. At 10 years old, he may never fully calm down, and the socialisation that he has had recently has not helped things. Perhaps, with time, and correct care he will settle down, but at his age, slinging him in with a mixed herd after less than two months of being gelded is irresponsible and naiive in the extreme.
I hope you can get something sorted for all your sakes.
 
Thank you for all your help and advice. I will speak to the liveries later when I go up there.
I think showing this thread is a good idea but to be honest I am too much of a wuss to do that !! :)
I know x2 of the liveries are very outgoing and confident so will pull them aside and voice my concerns to them , hopefully they will approach the y.m then.
 
Melissa123 said:
Thank you for all your help and advice. I will speak to the liveries later when I go up there.
I think showing this thread is a good idea but to be honest I am too much of a wuss to do that !! :)
I know x2 of the liveries are very outgoing and confident so will pull them aside and voice my concerns to them , hopefully they will approach the y.m then.
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I think if you can get them all on side and approach the YO as a united front, that should help your cause. It looks better than just one person who YO may just think is being picky, if that makes sense. Good luck :)
 
as a temporary solution until you can convince the yard owner to remove the new horse (not that you should have to convince her if she has any commen sense) you could seperate the field by electric tape - put your horse and if anyone else is like minded theirs too one side of the electric tape and then also tape off the gate with one line of electric tape but far enough away from the gate so that you can get from your taped section through the gate without getting kicked. It sounds horrible but this will probably work best if the poor mare is left with the new horse as if you try to put her in with yours the new one will probably just jump in or go through the tape.

You will need a good fencer to electrify with - hopefully you may already have one or can borrow one if not and too costly I would confront yard owner and say new horse goes or you go !!

Hope it all works out, what a horrible situation for you !
 
We have a recently cut gelding on the yard. He came from a dealer and weren't told he was very recently cut.

Once his isolation week was done we turned him out alone but he wouldnt settle alone so we popped a little old mare (Very hard arsed little thing - more than capable of sticking up for herself) in with him. It took about 10 mins of the two of them being together for us to work out why he wasn't settled. :o

He is now out in a heard of playful boys and there have been no problems. A couple of bites and kicks but nothing out of the ordinary for a group of playful geldings. He will fence jump to get to mares and harass them so has to be very carefully managed.
 
alliersv1 said:
I think if you can get them all on side and approach the YO as a united front, that should help your cause. It looks better than just one person who YO may just think is being picky, if that makes sense. Good luck :)
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Thanks for the advice, that is how I feel that if I approach the y/m wont take me seriously and think Im just being a pain.
Have just text the mares owner asking if she will meet me later so fingers crossed I am very nervous!!!
 
spaniel said:
To turn this horse out in your existing herd is downright irresponsible and I would be either asking the YO/horseowner to remove him or moving my own horse. Its not fair on the other horses, owners or the recently gelded horse as he will have little idea how to socialise.
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Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!!

We gelded a 6 year old stallion - who had NEVER covered a mare - 3 months ago. I wouldn't yet turn him out with a gelding, let alone in a mixed herd. This is - at best - ignorant behaviour on the part of YM/YO! And - be assured - if your horse is injured as a result I will be happy to give evidence as an 'expert witness' when you sue the pants off them!

It is possible for a recently cut stallion to impregnate a mare up to 8-10 weeks after gelding. At best, he WILL cover them if they are in season with the risk of injury and infection. Speak to YO immediately and DEMAND that this 'accident waiting to happen' is removed now - and given at LEAST 6 months to settle down before he is CAREFULLY introduced to a geldings only group!
 
********UPDATE*********

When I got up the yard yesterday afternoon the mare had been brought in by her owner and she has hoof marks like scrapes all down her hind quarters. One of the girl up the farm said thats from where he's been mounting her and using his hooves to get into position!
She has been bitten on her neck and some of her mane has been chewed/pulled out and she had marks over her body and head.
5 of the geldings have bites marks on their necks (like he was going for their wind pipes!!)
The person who owns the mare called the horses owner and asked them to come and remove him from the field , which they did and he's now back in his stable screaming his head off. Bless him :(
One of the girls spoke to y/m this morning and she seems like she is accepting now that the horse is a danger and said she going to 'try' and get the owners to move him to another yard. So we will have to wait and see.....
 
JanetGeorge said:
We gelded a 6 year old stallion - who had NEVER covered a mare - 3 months ago. I wouldn't yet turn him out with a gelding, let alone in a mixed herd. This is - at best - ignorant behaviour on the part of YM/YO! And - be assured - if your horse is injured as a result I will be happy to give evidence as an 'expert witness' when you sue the pants off them!
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EXACTLY!
I'm surprised the legal aspect alone hasn't entered the YO's mind! You and the other owners are perfectly within your rights to sue for any damage/injury incurred, I suggest you point this out ASAP!
 
Melissa123 said:
********UPDATE*********

When I got up the yard yesterday afternoon the mare had been brought in by her owner and she has hoof marks like scrapes all down her hind quarters. One of the girl up the farm said thats from where he's been mounting her and using his hooves to get into position!
She has been bitten on her neck and some of her mane has been chewed/pulled out and she had marks over her body and head.
5 of the geldings have bites marks on their necks (like he was going for their wind pipes!!)
The person who owns the mare called the horses owner and asked them to come and remove him from the field , which they did and he's now back in his stable screaming his head off. Bless him :(
One of the girls spoke to y/m this morning and she seems like she is accepting now that the horse is a danger and said she going to 'try' and get the owners to move him to another yard. So we will have to wait and see.....
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Oh dear, poor mare(and owner!) :(
I'm glad the YM is now (too late) taking everyone's concerns seriously, and attempting to deal with things. I hope none of the horses injuries are any worse than superficial cuts and bruises.
Out of interest, has the offending horse's owner had anything to say about all this, because if I was her, I'd be mortified and full of apologies. Having said that, I'd hope I wouldn't have been so daft as to let it happen in the first place.
 
alliersv1 said:
Oh dear, poor mare(and owner!) :(
I'm glad the YM is now (too late) taking everyone's concerns seriously, and attempting to deal with things. I hope none of the horses injuries are any worse than superficial cuts and bruises.
Out of interest, has the offending horse's owner had anything to say about all this, because if I was her, I'd be mortified and full of apologies. Having said that, I'd hope I wouldn't have been so daft as to let it happen in the first place.
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The stallions owner is scared of him and wont even lead him in and out of the field / deal with him in the stable etc as he tries to tank off and he is a fair size.
I dont think the owner of the stallion really cares to be honest as after turning the horse out last week she hadnt actually been back.
She said she is going to keep him in for another 2 weeks then try again so im not sure whats going to happen ??? I think the mares owner is speaking to y/m today and another livery as well
 
I'm glad that the horse is now out of the field BUT his owner thinks that locking him in a stable for 2 weeks is the answer!!!
If she's scared of him now, she's going to be terrified of him by the end of the 2 weeks. Some people are so stupid it's a miracle they manage to stay alive.
Poor horse it doesn't sound like he's had much of a life & his new owner isn't going to imporve things for him by the sound of it.
If you can, I think that you & the other owners need to get together & insist to your YO that he is not put back in with your horses after his 2 weeks in solitary confinment
Good luck & I hope it works out for you.
 
Well this is bittersweet isnt it. Im glad the other horses are ok and now out of danger from this horse but I feel so sorry for the poor chap. He really doesnt deserve this girl as an owner. I can see this all ending badly. Such a shame.
 
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