Hickstead NC team

wont friday be exciting! and and as it happens Rambo Tim has only done two gct shows this year hamburg and estoril but omelli did inded jump good in the latter, I dont know if Robert Smith's is really up for a proper 1.60, i havent seen it jump for ages but it seems in form and robin hood jumped lovely in estoril so we will see. we wouldnt want the ground to get softer though that is for sure
 
The one and biggest difference between us and the continentals is very simply that we are not a breeding nation. In itself a possibly simplistic argument because it encompasses a virtual dissertation in order to discuss each element.

1 - Each of the major nations also happen to be the biggest breeding nations, fact. In this you do not include the USA or Canada, where the money available from private individuals is quite extraordinary and will rarely be achieved here. Switzerland has very few mares (1000), but they also have big owners and direct access to the best markets which are all on their borders.

As a result of the breeding in the four main nations, they have built a national pride which at least puts a brake on the desire to sell when big money is offered, because the horse probably didn't cost that much to produce (compared to the UK or USA). Normally any horse that gets sold from the UK to anywhere else, was bought in originally and probably cost a fair bit if its any good, and with production costs being so high, the horse owes them a lot of cash. Thus someone comes along with a wad of cash which might be life changing and the horse is gone. Who wouldn't do that? Actually there is an answer to that.........a breeder from one of the big breeding countries.

How can these breeders do this? Easy. In the larger part they all benefit from some kind of National Stud or an organisation which was at one time acting as one and therefore funded from Government. Whilst said organisation may not necessarily be funded in that way now, it will certainly benefit from a huge infrastructure which will have been funded in the early days from central funds. We've all seen these amazing buildings at the various verbands and national studs, they had to be paid for by someone.

Thus there is either a national (Haras Natioanaux) system or a more regional (Holstein, Barden-wurtemburg etc etc) form, which is there to provide support, semen, inseminations, advice, sales, papers with a value, and a brand (both actual and marketing). Breeders adhere to the policies and benefit from a strength in numbers. We in the UK are desperately individual in our outlooks, perhaps that is why communism has had a greater effect in many of these countries than in the UK (that's a huge discussion). Without a centralised or even regionalised system breeding can never work an any other level except for the anomily (sp?) of the one foal in 5000 that goes on a does something good, which is the exception to the rule rather than the proving of it (overstatement and hype being classic English speaking problems).

these infrastructures provide data which in turn educates the breeder and allows them form opinions based on fact rather than bullshit. As a result, and because of modern technology, the "amateur" breeder can chose a stallion from far away, safe in the knowledge that he is making the decision based on fact, rather than using the cob down the road (very common in the UK still, but it's changing). That's enough about breeding on that level, but you'll get the drift. They all have huge advantages over us.

2 - Young horse production.................stinks in the UK. There is no system of production, very few GENUINE young horse producers and no stock to bring on. Perhaps the UK is the only serious SJ country in Europe not to have a classic cycle for young horses from three to seven. Without that we're sunk in the water. Simple.

The Europeans make huge money from these classes. I heard of one horse in France that won 350€ a couple of weeks ago for going clear in a 6YO class, not against the clock, one round at 1.35m. the same horse has done that 7 times this year already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we're not even close! As Joey would say "you're so far away it's just a dot".

That debate is a huge one and also deserves another thread.

3 - Then there's the poor owner, who has been treated like crap for decades. It's desperately amateur and very chip van and polystyrene cup isn't it? So, when you put your heart, soul and hard earned into a horse, are treated like a fourth rate individual by the authorities and often by the riders, and then some nice person comes and offers the enough money to go and buy a load of glam, why wouldn't you??????????????????

4 - Did anyone notice the total lack of international riders at Hickstead last month???? Where were they? MONACO..........................well who the hell wouldn't be? Who wants to be stuck in mud or dust and earn crap money from under sponsored classes in England when you can spend a week in the definition of luxury as a guest of Prince Albert???? It's not even a question. One class at Monaco is worth more than all the classes put together on any one day at Hickstead. Nuff said?

And the only reason they are turning up this weekend is that it's a Super League meet. but you won't see the big boys there, oh no. They'd rather stay at home this weekend, or take their youngsters out to Zuidwolde, Rodez, Modena, Ascona, Gera etc etc. Who wants to come to England where it is already raining, and Hickstead becomes a quagmire in less then three minutes, and earn no money for jumping your expensive horses???? Actually the French will probably turn up in force this week, because a win here secures the title in the same year they got back into the league following a year out.

When it's put like all of that, the answers are pretty simple really..................................

Overhaul the entire BSJA and BEF and make one body that controls everything. Stop this revolting jobs for the boys mentality. Make the Whittakers start breeding horses rather than children, they evidently know something about successful breeding programs!!!
 
gosh Boblettte, that is a long post! thanks for your thoughts many of which i agree with. Anyway now I have seen who is coming for the nations cups, this is the best chance we have had all season to get some serious points, even france and the usa have not got all their best horses/and or riders here and all the other teams including ireland are lacking persons who will almost certainly go to the europeans.........how extremely interesting....
 
Well put, Boblette.At a small show last weekend, here in France, the prize money was up to E60, for a young horse to jump a quiet clear. I am seeing both sides of the coin now, been a BSJA member for a lot of my life, now an FFE member, what a difference. The computer system is great, no paying to look at a record, everything on line, visible, and organised.I thought the Voice's comments were very apt on the earlier posts on this subject.Anyway, looking forward to hearing how tomorrow goes, already know times and jumping order for my classes this weekend, so can plan ahead.See what I mean about the FFE!!
JC
 
Indeed the BSJA has promised to make progress for many years, but there is all too little to show for it yet! There are plenty of people willing and able to point them in the right direction. Sadly they've missed the boat I feel, given the downturn in the economy.

In case you've not noticed tomorrow's Nations Cup starts at 10.30am.

Did anyone else notice a bizarre result on the Hickstead website yesterday: in the 1.30m a horse called Abigail V owned itself and managed to come equal 2nd and 5th!
 
I'd agree with that - they make a fair few empty promises. Here's hoping the team do something special tomorrow, as if not we are screwed... 9th place going into the second last one of these is NOT a good result!
 
I saw him jumping at the Royal Norfolk show... so he does occasionally jump over here... can't blame him for going off abroad though, MUCH better prize money. I'd agree that I'm not convinced about Rosinus - yet they keep putting it on the teams anyway... I would have not have put him in the last couple of teams and used him for Hickstead though as he does usually jump well in that arena. I think it is a real shame that they have made it so that you can only have four on a team, makes the whole thing more closed shop than ever
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I would still pick based on the horses and not the riders though - as the horses are the ones that have to jump the fences, so I wouldn't rule out someone with only one top horse, as long as it was deemed to be 100% sound by the team vet before they went! oooh well, we shall see how they fare tomorrow. I predict Ben maher - 0/4, Robert Smith 4/4 Tim Gredley 4/8 Peter charles 5/0 ... what does anyone else predict?
 
I'm not good at predictions, but Vangelis S tends to go worse in his second round than his first (I prefer those who, like Rosinus as it happens usually improve in their second round - nowadays no good of course if team fails to qualify for the 2nd round!). I agree that Peter will probably have a time fault in one or possibly both rounds. Anyway, fingers & toes crossed for them, and of course Lucretia is right, other nations haven't sent their strongest teams. I think it's a huge backward step that the Meydan series only allows 4 per country - I guess the reason is financial for the host countries as they now have to accommodate 10 teams instead of 8 as it was in the Samsung series.
 
I would really like to see Tim Stockdale & Corlato figure in a team as he is such a good ambassador for the sport and on form delivers the goods. I saw some GP jumping down here not so long ago and I have too say there were two riders in a different league to the others, Tim being one and Will Funnell the other. Class rounds from both unlike the kamikaze efforts from some, one woman even managed to knock over a steward cos she couldn't control her horse.
 
I think today's H&H Show Jumping comment by Graham Fletcher is spot on for this thread!

I totally agree with you sjstar25 about the selection being for horse (or atleast indevidual horse and rider combination) rather than primaraly just for rider.

Oh well, hoping the team does do well.
 
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I think today's H&H Show Jumping comment by Graham Fletcher is spot on for this thread!

I totally agree with you sjstar25 about the selection being for horse (or atleast indevidual horse and rider combination) rather than primaraly just for rider.

Oh well, hoping the team does do well.

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As i don't have the H&H to hand, could you summarise Mr Fletcher's comments ?

I'll be there watching what i can tomorrow...although i have to admit to thinking that (even for a dedicated fan such as myself) the split of first round/second round over nearly 8 hours (with another international class in between) is going to challenge many ! I can't see that it's great for spectators to try and keep track of things over that sort of period. I almost certainly won't be able to stay for the second round as it's not fair to expect my horse to stand on a lorry for 10 hrs or more
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Under the banner ' Where the BSJA has let us down' and his column heading ' Scrap this flawed format'.

Brief resume , why has the british squad had such a poor season given increased funding via the world class start and potential system.

flaws in the way BSJA encourages the production if future int. horses . Mistakes made with new IT and NGP formats where 5 best horses from round one are brought back for jump off even if they don't go clear. A horse jumping the only clear should get prize.

Mention of Chester GP and Promised Land doing only clear but still having to JO. They should have got prize without needing to JO.

Second issue is that of all weather surfaces. Need more grass surfaces as different technique used and novices get used to all weather surface as opposed to grass.

Too detailed to do fully but hope you get gist of it.

Not much about issues on this thread.
 
Thanks LHS....i get the gist
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The surfaces vs grass debate will go on forever...i used to think it made a huge difference to my horse...until i realised a much more fundamental problem. I think there is still a fair split of grass to surface shows (the biggest shows in the world (Hickstead, Aachen, St Gallen, Barcelona, Spruce Meadows etc...) still run predominantly on grass...and i think it's the way the horses are ridden that probably makes more difference than what they are ridden on.

The A9 format (NGP?) was bought in to encourage spectator interest....but none of the biggest classes in the world reward failure (i.e 4 faults in the first round beating a clear) so i don'
t really get their reasoning...

Bottom line is, if we don't make the superleague next year we're in massive trouble as a nation...and leading up to our own Olympics too
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Glad I'm not the only one to be bemused by the 10.30 start!

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Ditto - I'm going tomorrow specifically to watch the NC - thank God I checked the Hickstead website last night. I'd have been turning up around lunchtime as it's usually something like 2.30pm!
 
I know GF grip was because his horse was the only clear (would he have said anything if his was one of the other 4 ??), but he has a point and they screwed up with the rules and did not think of this scenario. The other point is will they now lower fences to make sure it does not happen again and then it turns into a speed class? I know they are trying to encourage a bet, however the should just build the courses big and may the best horse win - the format works for the biggest showjumping crowd - Hickstead Derby as well as the Yorks show.

With regards to grass. The weather is so crap here that classes used to get cancelled hence the reason for the all weather. Most of the qualifiers are held outdoors for indoor shows (Hoys, scope etc) so I don't think it makes any difference and I would rather have young horses jumping on a good surface than a bad one. There are shows on grass if you are that bothered.

I like the GF column as he does say things that other people say, although I wish he would be a bit more controversial and say what we all think !! (if ever they want a stand in I will do it instead of the boring people they normally get!!).
 
I like the GF column as he does say things that other people say, although I wish he would be a bit more controversial and say what we all think !! [ QUOTE ]


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Like a male Pammy Hutton perhaps
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never read hers. more like Clarkson, say what you think and don't think what you say, whether it is right or wrong, it is you opinion on things. A marmite comment like it or hate it.
 
It would be crazy to lower the fences, but that would not stop them! At Gt Yorks, Jon Doney was at pains to say that the Stairway series was introduced precisely because there is a shortage of the right type of class for the promising horses to experience international style tracks. That of course is what Area International Trials (now ATs) were designed to do. I can see why they use the A9 format (guaranteed jump-off) though I'm not a fan and suspect it merely confuses the general spectator. Similarly I don't like to see too many of the European Groups or Winning Round formats, when those who go clear may not qualify or be beaten by someone who had faults in the 1st round. I hope the formula for the Cock o' the North is never changed - there are all too few 2 jump-off classes nowadays, and I would prefer this format to be used for the Stairway series, so there's much less chance of an undeserved win. I also think it's a bit of a nonsense to allow very experienced horses in the Stairway series, but I can see that they would not have enough starters if the classes were restricted like they used to do for Olympic Star Spotters.
 
But I do agree that the format of the cock of the north class is good - we never get three rounder competitions anymore, guess its mainly due to it being too time consuming? I dont like the A9 classes, i think if someone jumps the only clear of a class they should be declared the winner and the 4 faulters should be jumped off. At least they still carry the faults foward though. The idea of being given a clean slate at Chester and only 10 going through, even if there are more than 10 clears is rubbish!
 
Absolutely right. I'd not expect lots of shows to go for a 3-rounder, but a select few should surely do. Gt Yorks allows plenty of time and manages to stick to its main ring timetable, probably because the showing classes take place in a different ring. They have to qualify for Cock o' the North on the other 2 days so they know they won't have too many in and the course designer will have had a good chance to see the caibre of the field.

I can't blame riders entering horses who already have plenty of international experience, as the prize money is good, but the main idea was to assess the capabilities and form of the less experienced horses. I think we should have some 1.60m courses, as there is quite a difference between jumping consistently well over 1.50m courses and 1.60m which is what we need for Super League etc.
From the BSJA website:
Clare Whitaker, Chairman of the Performance Development Committee at British Show Jumping commented “The series will very much have the emphasis on encouraging double clears over courses aligned with those they may encounter in Europe. This can only be seen as a tremendous step forward for our sport and I’m thrilled that we have been able to implement it so early on in my taking over the helm of Performance Development. Not only will this assist at a senior level but we also hope it will enable our Young Riders to progress up the senior ranks”.
 
oooh I see what you mean - yeah I agree. I don't get why they bother, they should let the people who havent been picked for teams etc be seen. I dont know why they want to bother with the stairway classes when they can go abroad and compete for better money. A lot of the stairway ones have been between 1.50 and 1.60, and have been good technical tracks. My only problem is I think there should be more emphasis on the importance of jumping double clears rather than going quick against the clock. To me its silly that you get 12 points for 1st and 9 points for 2nd, it should be 10, 9, 8, 7 etc. I dont get why the winner should get three more points than second place. I do think its a fab idea though
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Rules for Stairway are fences not to exceed 1.50m in the 1st round. My point is that we need to find those who are good over tracks 1.60m in the 1st round. Can't expect to find many of course, and I suppose it would not be easy for the course designers to come up with technical courses at that height which would not "bury" horses not up to it, or whose riders are not good enough.
 
yeah but a lot of the stairways have been nearer 1.55 in the first round, and the standard in them has also been pretty good - there are some consistant combinations who seem to be showing themselves... doubt it will make much difference to their chances of team selection though!
 
Very interesting thread. I don't know the scene here well enough to comment. (Although I can tell you the recent Canadian success is not the result of a good infrastructure or even a lot of Canadian money - the owner of the gold medal horse is American and he has Eric on it, quite frankly, because Eric wins. He could jump a camel 'round. And in the end the horses they have will be for the owner's daughter, which highlights the "problem" that increasingly if people pay the money they want to ride themselves not watch someone else do it.)

On the subject of jumping on grass though, shows like Aachen and Spruce are on turf, expensively and carefully maintained. (Presumably Hickstead is the same.) I don't know here but some of the smaller shows I've been to in North America are definitely not on turf, they're on somebody's mowed field or a games pitch. While I see the necessity for horses to learn to jump on different surfaces I can also see the reluctance of people to risk their increasingly valuable horses on anything other than top notch ground.
 
I'm headed to Hickstead tomorrow for the first time (Canadian, been to Spruce Meadows). We're taking the National Express coach from Brighton to Hickstead, but my one concern is choosing the time for coming home - anyone have any guesses as to when things will wrap up? I know many things can change it, but a rough estimate would be nice. I suppose I'm too used to the schedules from Spruce which also tend to approximate finish time as well.

Thanks to anyone who can help! We've watched events from Hickstead for years, so it's a dream come true to be visiting this weekend! The only way it would be better would be for Canada to have a team in the series, sigh.
 
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