High / Low Hooves on very left-handed 3yr Old

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Adding some additional photos of his fronts for some advice…
Trimmed 6 weeks ago (farrier out tomorrow for next trim) - he has been an admittedly tricky customer to trim due to his age and previous lack of handling before I took over (typical left in the field abroad situation), hence corrections have not been made as of yet, however I have major concerns over the visible rings and event lines.

They seem to curve downwards like laminitic hooves and have some scaling/peeling at the top, along with some old bruising.

Considering horse is 3, went from being out 24/7 to stabled and turned out in the day with hay in approx Oct/Nov, now back out 24/7.

Has been fed top spec stud balancer and pink mash, all low sugar and low starch as he is on the very slim side - keen to keep him this way so less joint stress etc. *Edited to add - he’s been off the top spec balancer for approx 2-3 months now and has instead been fed pink mash, 2 cups micronised linseed for condition and Alfa-A oil, plus formula 4 feet.

Farrier seems to think they just need a trim..

However I am a worrier and can't help but feel they don't look good.. Can anyone advise? TIA

 

[ycbm]

What are all the holes and rough areas in the upright foot? Had he had a history of abscesses, because unless it's just shadows on the photos he looks to have a number of abscess exit holes on both feet. Did something strange happen 3 months or so ago? There is a ring of poor hoof quality on both feet at that point.

I would ditch the Top Spec and move to a no iron barefoot friendly balancer from Forage Plus or Progressive Earth.
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[AlpacaTeddySJ]

What are all the holes and rough areas in the upright foot? Had he had a history of abscesses, because unless it's just shadows on the photos he looks to have a number of abscess exit holes on both feet. Did something strange happen 3 months or so ago? There is a ring of poor hoof quality on both feet at that point.

I would ditch the Top Spec and move to a no iron barefoot friendly balancer from Forage Plus or Progressive Earth.
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Never noticed an abscess, never been foot sore etc but agree there is one hole on the left front - I think rest are shadows.

4 odd months ago is when he would have come in and off the grass, and 3 months ago he would have had influenza and tetanus vaccs (first and second) plus a wormer.

Should have noted he’s been off the top spec balancer for approx 2-3 months now and has instead been fed pink mash, 2 cups micronised linseed for condition and Alfa-A oil, plus formula 4 feet, which is pretty much what all of mine are on with varying amounts of linseed depending on weight...

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Found an image of when I got him last September - before he had his first trim with me. Notice pretty big lines - likely in line with when he was imported (probably big stress).

 

[ycbm]

They don't look nearly as different from each other as now. It's that your recollection, too?

If so. I think I'd be engaging a top notch body worker to try to find out what has made him so uneven.
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[ycbm]

I can't help wondering if he got ulcers from the move and if that has made him stand differently when he grazes and affected his hoof quality since then. I think I'd be tempted to get him scoped.
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[AlpacaTeddySJ]

They don't look nearly as different from each other as now. It's that your recollection, too?

If so. I think I'd be engaging a top notch body worker to try to find out what has made him so uneven.
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Yes, I agree - I don't actually think the lines have grown out very much looking at where they are now and before...

Vet Physio is coming to give him his first once over on Friday, along with my other boy - who was actually scoped for ulcers last Thursday after showing symptoms but was totally clear, turned out to be hocks.

I can't help wondering if he got ulcers from the move and if that has made him stand differently when he grazes and affected his hoof quality since then. I think I'd be tempted to get him scoped.
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He really doesn't show signs of ulcers but did grind the stable wood a lot when he was in - I put this down to him trying to get teeth out as a few have fallen out already - however this could be related. Definitely absolutely no loss of appetite, he eats 'like a horse' .... Also no loss of condition - he is the most shiny horse I have ever met, without even trying!!
Another thing to note - he was probably gelded only about 8 months ago, not long before I got him and after he was imported (aged approx 2yr 3mths).

 

[sbloom]

It's ideal to put the camera on the ground with the lens as low as possible, then we can really see angles as well as horn quality

Poor posture (and it's not only saddles and other ridden issues that cause poor posture) can cause hoof balance problems as well as vice versa, so I'd agree with ycbm about a bodyworker but I'd also add on extra groundwork to make sure he's really able to lift in front and be straight, again, a circular relationship.

 

[Highmileagecob]

What does the rest of each hoof look like? Are the frogs good and healthy, nice wide heels, good buttress? There is definitely evidence of some disruption to his routine around three months ago as the above posts mention. Has he ever been shod?

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

It's ideal to put the camera on the ground with the lens as low as possible, then we can really see angles as well as horn quality

Poor posture (and it's not only saddles and other ridden issues that cause poor posture) can cause hoof balance problems as well as vice versa, so I'd agree with ycbm about a bodyworker but I'd also add on extra groundwork to make sure he's really able to lift in front and be straight, again, a circular relationship.

He does plenty of groundwork inc over raised poles in walk - be interesting to see the outcome from the vet physio on Friday, I'm sure he'll have something to say regarding his imbalance! Thanks for your comment

What does the rest of each hoof look like? Are the frogs good and healthy, nice wide heels, good buttress? There is definitely evidence of some disruption to his routine around three months ago as the above posts mention. Has he ever been shod?

Never been shod that I am aware of, and given he came over at just over 2 yrs old with no signs of nail holes I can't imagine he was before that.

As I said, approx Oct/Nov is when his routine would have changed from being out 24/7 to being in at night and out in the arena with haynets in the day. But apart from that nothing has changed until 2 weeks ago when he went back out 24/7.

Here's some underside pictures of the front left/right - I am very aware his feet are due a trim as previously stated, last done 6 weeks ago and farrier out tomorrow. Not the best pictures as I was mid wash - soap and water followed by some iodine after, later add some kevin bacon dressing.

I suppose my concern is that obviously there are deep collateral grooves (just a part of them being long and out of balance perhaps), but also that his sole has a convex shape... I am no expert in horse feet and I do rely on my farrier's advice, but I am looking to learn more, hence why I am posting!

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

[Images removed as user's request]

Other horse has similar event line. Influenza jabs/wormer done at the same time and they have same routine..

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Having now very very thoroughly investigated my photos from many months back, I am almost certain the major event line on my older boy (clipped, previous post) was caused by the stress of the loss of his big brother. Seems to be just coming in and showing in September and the loss was August.

In terms of the younger one, this would also coincide with his move to me, where I can have looked back and I think can relate the older large event lines to when he was imported, and newer ones now halfway to when he moved to me. They do say winter slows growth, right? However, it doesn’t help the fact that his hooves are currently growing in terrible condition despite ‘hoof supplements’.

Still have concerns over the angle and mis-balance of his feet.

Will see how they are after a trim tomorrow and see what the physio has to say, but I am considering X-Rays to confirm the the pedal bone angle etc.

Advice still very much welcomed!

 

[ycbm]

In an unridden horse I wouldn't, personally be worrying about pedal bone angles until you can bring that under run foot back where it belongs. From the underside it looks like the frog is trying to drag the toe out into the next county. If your farrier can't give you a plan of how he intends to get that right, then I think you will need another trimmer/farrier. Even if it is body related, that foot is pretty extreme and should be able to be changed, or you will have a continuing reinforcing cycle of foot wrong/body wrong/foot wrong/body wrong. I hope the vet also finds some obvious things to work on.

Quality wise I strongly suggest you get him onto a "barefoot" balancer as the FfF doesn't seem to be doing the job.
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[Highmileagecob]

I think you may have found your inbalance. As YCBM says, a good farrier should be able to work with you and slowly, gradually trim into balance. The wear pattern appears to indicate he is loading his toes; as the heel is gradually lowered, that should resolve itself.

 

[ycbm]

After another good hard look at the photos, there looks like quite a bit of room to reduce the heel height on the upright foot, too.
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[Highmileagecob]

Just be cautious about taking his stilettos off too early, or you may be posting again about tendon issues. Take your time. All best wishes for a good result!

 

[Birker2020]

His front are particularly uneven, with the left being ‘low’ and right ‘high’ and upright.

He will always eat grass with the left leg forward and right leg back, including hay in the stable.

Referring back to the original post, this is a very interesting article about the subject of hoof preference whilst grazing

https://www.straightnesstraining.com/natural-asymmetry/front-legs/

 

[ycbm]

Just be cautious about taking his stilettos off too early, or you may be posting again about tendon issues. Take your time. All best wishes for a good result!

It's not a job for an amateur.
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[AlpacaTeddySJ]

In an unridden horse I wouldn't, personally be worrying about pedal bone angles until you can bring that under run foot back where it belongs. From the underside it looks like the frog is trying to drag the toe out into the next county. If your farrier can't give you a plan of how he intends to get that right, then I think you will need another trimmer/farrier. Even if it is body related, that foot is pretty extreme and should be able to be changed, or you will have a continuing reinforcing cycle of foot wrong/body wrong/foot wrong/body wrong. I hope the vet also finds some obvious things to work on.

Quality wise I strongly suggest you get him onto a "barefoot" balancer as the FfF doesn't seem to be doing the job.
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I think you may have found your inbalance. As YCBM says, a good farrier should be able to work with you and slowly, gradually trim into balance. The wear pattern appears to indicate he is loading his toes; as the heel is gradually lowered, that should resolve itself.

Thanks again so much for your input both! I do trust my farrier and hopefully he and the physio together will be able to fix the imbalance. I have also just put an order in for forage plus hoof balancer as it seems to be highly regarded, along with the kevin bacon dressing and solution hopefully he will make some progress soon!

I was just concerned that something else may be going on and that others may point out things that I hadn't noticed!

https://www.straightnesstraining.com/natural-asymmetry/front-legs/

I believe it was this article that made me consider his preference and its impact on his overall balance

 

[ycbm]

From looking at the feet, I think you have a stress and/or a nutrition problem going on. I'm hoping that the FP will address it, but if you don't get better quality growth almost straight away, I think I would be toying around with protein levels in his food.

Will you let us know how you get on?
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[Highmileagecob]

Pete Ramey's 'Hoof Rehab' website is a mine of information. It helped me to sort out a club foot, and finding a likeminded trimmer helped enormously.

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Update: Looking much better after a good trim today! Farrier thinks upright foot is just club and won’t be changed.
Considering x-rays of fronts for peace of mind, but far less concerned than I was!

[Images removed as user's request]

Only real issue as such is the club foot has seedy toe, so will be treated accordingly.

 

[ycbm]

They do look a lot better ATSJ, but I think you might have a balance problem at the quarters. Can you see how the hair line is being pushed up in the middle? This would generally indicate that there is too much weight on the hoof at the bottom of where the hair is arching. Does he have a nice rim of sole callous, or is he walking on his hoof walls?
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[AlpacaTeddySJ]

They do look a lot better ATSJ, but I think you might have a balance problem at the quarters. Can you see how the hair line is being pushed up in the middle? This would generally indicate that there is too much weight on the hoof at the bottom of where the hair is arching. Does he have a nice rim of sole callous, or is he walking on his hoof walls?
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I can see but I will be honest and say I don’t fully understand what you mean, would you be able to explain further?
Here’s a picture of his right fore sole (has some treatment on it so it’s a bit less clear, can take better ones tomorrow).

 

[ycbm]

The top line I've drawn is what you've got. The bottom line is what you want. The bow in the middle would suggest that the walls are too long at the quarters, but it doesn't look from your picture as of this is the case. I'd keep an eye on them and see if the new trim brings that line straighter.

Photos can be quite deceptive, they may look better in real life.
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[AlpacaTeddySJ]

View attachment 90825



The top line I've drawn is what you've got. The bottom line is what you want. The bow in the middle would suggest that the walls are too long at the quarters, but it doesn't look from your picture as of this is the case. I'd keep an eye on them and see if the new trim brings that line straighter.

Photos can be quite deceptive, they may look better in real life.
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Yes I see now. They were too long as they were overdue and his trim frequency has been less than ideal until now, but he’s now to be on 3.5/4 week intervals so I’m sure he should make some good progress. Any idea how long things such as this take to even out? Thank you!

 

[Highmileagecob]

A club foot can be improved. My cob was 17 when it got properly addressed by changing my farrier. Now the frog has widened at the heel, the heel bulb is big and providing support as it should, and the frog itself has moved back into its correct place instead of supporting the toe. He now places the foot heel first and the hoof capsule has grown to match his other front hoof in size - before, it was smaller.
All in all, it probably took around two years to see a near normal hoof, but I was insistent that any heel trimming was done very gradually to allow internal structures to adjust to the changes.
I changed from a traditional farrier to a barefoot trimmer. My cob is now 27, has never been shod, but has always been regularly trimmed. The vet gave him his 10,000 mile service last week and complimented his amazing feet.

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Hoof Update from today:
Started walking 15/20 minutes a day on tarmac.
[Images removed as user's request]
Any comments welcomed!

 

[Highmileagecob]

Looking better! The frogs are starting to dry up, which is evidence that you are dealing with the thrush, and his heel bulbs are starting to develop as he loads his heels. The hooves look more even in size too. Keep going with the thrush treatment until all the folds and creases in the heels and frogs have opened out. If he will let you, scrub inside the folds with a toothbrush to remove the gunk but if this proves to be a sticking point, your trimmer/farrier may want to open them out and scrape the surfaces. Is he moving any better?

 

[AlpacaTeddySJ]

Looking better! The frogs are starting to dry up, which is evidence that you are dealing with the thrush, and his heel bulbs are starting to develop as he loads his heels. The hooves look more even in size too. Keep going with the thrush treatment until all the folds and creases in the heels and frogs have opened out. If he will let you, scrub inside the folds with a toothbrush to remove the gunk but if this proves to be a sticking point, your trimmer/farrier may want to open them out and scrape the surfaces. Is he moving any better?

I’m quite pleased given it’s only been a few weeks!
He’s having the frogs cleaned every day with the red horse spray and then filled with the white stuff and field paste which does seem to be working, but given he has an old abscess hole I’ve bought some cleantrax soak which *should* really get it all gone!
He never really had an issue moving but I’ve been making slomo videos for the last few days and he’s loading his heels every time so hopefully his feet should really improve now!
The left fore frog doesn’t actually make any contact with the ground however so it might take longer, but I don’t think the heels are long? Hopefully out on the grass it will have some stimulation!
Thanks for your help