High risk breeds with adverse reactions with vaccinations.

[ralph and maverick]

A lady I work for has just bought a puppy (min pin) yesterday, and breeder has advised not to vaccinate him as they are a high risk breed that suffers from adverse reactions. I had never heard of this before and neither had my boss.
Just wondered if anybody on here knows anything about the breed or had heard about this before?

Thanks in advance

 

[Dobiegirl]

I havnt heard of that one, the cynic in me is saying the breeder is too tight to vax, I would have rung my vet before purchase for their advice. Parvo is everywhere and it would worry me to death that I would lose a pup to this. If the breeder genuinely believed this and had research to back it up I would have thought they would be using something like a nosode as an alternative.

 

[Kaylum]

black and tan breeds are more at risk of parvo. As said before a neighbours pup got parvo and died the vet said they are more at risk. So if you get a pup and its had it vaccinations by the breeder dont take their word for it get it done by your vet.

 

[s4sugar]

Some breeds do have a higher than normal incidence of vaccine reactions but there are no breed specific warnings for vaccinating min pins -has the breeder had a problem with relatives? In which case why hasn't she reported to the breed club or outcrossed?

Puppies do need vaccinating and parvo & distemper are around.

 

[Dobiegirl]

black and tan breeds are more at risk of parvo. As said before a neighbours pup got parvo and died the vet said they are more at risk. So if you get a pup and its had it vaccinations by the breeder dont take their word for it get it done by your vet.

If I have read this right you are saying that anyone purchasing a b/t puppy and its been vaxed by the breeder to get it vaxed by your vet and not to take the word of the breeder, that is a ridiculous statement. You could kill a puppy this way by overloading their system.

We have bought 3 b/t puppies over the years all had been vaxed by the breeder and we did take their word for it(we had the vax card) as they were reputable health testing breeders.

 

[Kaylum]

If I have read this right you are saying that anyone purchasing a b/t puppy and its been vaxed by the breeder to get it vaxed by your vet and not to take the word of the breeder, that is a ridiculous statement. You could kill a puppy this way by overloading their system.

We have bought 3 b/t puppies over the years all had been vaxed by the breeder and we did take their word for it(we had the vax card) as they were reputable health testing breeders.

No but too many people rely on the breeders word. Vax cards can easily be forged and should also contain the vets stamp. A lot arent especially those from puppy farms and people are buying puppies not even knowing they are farmed. Its a precaution especially with high risk breeds.

 

[Dobiegirl]

No but too many people rely on the breeders word. Vax cards can easily be forged and should also contain the vets stamp. A lot arent especially those from puppy farms and people are buying puppies not even knowing they are farmed. Its a precaution especially with high risk breeds.

Yes Vax cards can be forged(had this very same conv. with a friend last night)

In your original statement you said breeders, you didnt clarify puppy farmers which is why research before buying a puppy is essential.

Any perspective buyer could ask to see the vax card before hand and ring the vet as Im sure any kosher breeder wouldnt mind, they would probabley be a bit bemused but also pleased people were checking to make sure their pup hadnt been farmed.

 

[Aru]

she should definitely vaccinate! reactions do happen and some breeds are more at risk than others...and particular lines within breeds can show issues. .but min pins are not one of these.id be questioning how responsible the breeder is.if she very worried she should ring her vet before hand and talk through her concerns.

 

[Kaylum]

Yes Vax cards can be forged(had this very same conv. with a friend last night)

In your original statement you said breeders, you didnt clarify puppy farmers which is why research before buying a puppy is essential.

Any perspective buyer could ask to see the vax card before hand and ring the vet as Im sure any kosher breeder wouldnt mind, they would probabley be a bit bemused but also pleased people were checking to make sure their pup hadnt been farmed.

Yes I did and you can still get breeders that forge. All puppies should be health checked anyway so the vet should have seen them tobehonest there is no excuse is there

 

[ralph and maverick]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I shall pass them on. She has said she will give the vets a call and speak to them.
Thanks

 

[FinnishLapphund]

In the early 90's, I knew a breeder of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels that after hearing about a few Cavalier puppies with bad reactions to the then new triple-vaccinations (three vaccines - one syringe), recommended that her puppy buyers didn't use that way of vaccinating, without vaccinated with only one or max two vaccines at a time. But her puppies had still gotten their first vaccination when they were sold.

I've not heard of a breed that couldn't be vaccinated at all. ETA: And I'm not taking this Miniature Pinscher breeder's word for it either.

 

[zippo]

Sad to say,Parvo is raging in our area.The Vets are encouraging people do bring their dogs in ,for half price vax.
Also,instructions on the door of the vet hospital,not to bring your dog inside if it has Parvo symptoms,the vet will come out to your car and check the dog out first.
All ours are given regular boosters,for doggy diseases.
In Oz there is also a huge debate about vax-ing children,having had polio as a child it's not a fate I would wish on any one.
Now don't get me started,about those who refuse to vax for Hendra virus,they are learning that some vets are refusing to visit an unvax animal in certain areas.

 

[misterjinglejay]

There isn't any back up literature that I've found, but mals can react badly to vaccines (also, and there is evidence on this, with GA's) - I've heard of several cases.

 

[Superhot]

What is the breed? Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers are a breed absolutely prone to problems if they are vaccinated too early, eg: before 12 weeks. It can be a trigger leading to SRMA (meningitis). I did not vaccinate my last Toller for this very reason, but I did treat her homeopathically to protect her. I most certainly didn't vaccinate her to save money.
Incidentally, I have been honest with my insurance company and told them she has not been vaccinated and they said fine, she just wouldn't be covered for any illnesses associated with not being vaccinated. When I read the small print, it said that she would not have been covered for any illnesses associated with BEING vaccinated...

 

[FinnishLapphund]

There isn't any back up literature that I've found, but mals can react badly to vaccines (also, and there is evidence on this, with GA's) - I've heard of several cases.

Out of curiosity, do you know if that is sensitivity for any type of GA or whether it is sensitivity for a certain type of GA?

E.g. in general the Sighthound breeds usually have less fat deposits than other dog types, and especially racing Greyhounds doesn't have much or any fat deposits. About 30 years ago some veterinarians (in Sweden at least) used an anesthetics that was injected directly into the bloodstream, (as I understood it when I read about it) it then went from the blood and stored itself in the fat deposits, from there it safely was excreted extremely slowly into the rest of the body, and it made the dog sleep.
The problem was that it also caused the metabolism and body temperature to drop, and if there wasn't enough or any fat deposits for the anesthetics to store itself in, the amount needed to make the dog sleep, made the metabolism and body temperature drop too much, which led to the death of several racing Greyhounds.

So some says that Greyhounds are sensitive to GA, which they in one way are, but only to a specific type of anesthetics that was used about 30 years ago, and Swedish veterinarians no longer uses that type of anesthetics, so today, Greyhounds are no more at risk when they have GA, than the average dog.

And a few years ago, I read that people with red hair are more difficult to give GA to than people with other hair colours, but that doesn't mean that red-haired people can't have GA, it just means that the anesthetist needs to be more careful, and perhaps choose different anesthetics or sedating drugs than usual. I presume that today's veterinarians also have more than one option when it comes to GA, and that if a dog breed/type is sensitive for a certain type of anesthetics or sedating drugs, there is alternatives that the veterinarian can use.

 

[misterjinglejay]

That's really interesting, FL - sounds like something worth following up on.

In answer to your question though, I don't know. I will have a chat with my breeder and get back to you - all I know is that mals metabolic rate is very different to other dogs and they they absorb drugs very quickly. Also they take longer to get out of the dogs system and can give very unpredictable results once under. A slight overdose can kill a mal.
It is recommended to use Rapinovet, which is a short acting anaesthetic, and enables the vet to keep the dog under for as short a time as possible, and to bring them round again in minutes.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

But you know the basic, Malamutes have a different metabolism and absorb drugs very quickly, they might be sensitive to more than one type of GA, however, there is at least one short acting anaesthetic (Rapinovet) that veterinarians can use, but they also need to do the surgery as fast as possible.

Always interesting to know.

 

[Supertrooper]

I'm a vet nurse and have been for 20yrs, working at a practice that looks after a huge variety of breeds.

I've never seen enough of a link with animals being vaccinated to them developing problems afterwards BUT I have seen a huge number of cases with vaccine preventable diseases, mainly parvo but have also seen cases of lepto and distemper also. I would NEVER not vaccinate because I've seen what these diseases do to animals, and it's horrific so to me it's a no brainer TBH whatever the breed.

With regards to GA's and breeds that are sensitive to certain ones, firstly anaesthetics now have moved on hugely and are alot safer and the animals recover very quickly with little or no after effects. Secondly there are risks with all GA's and I wonder how many of these breed deaths are tied in with bitches having to have emergency caeserians, which are massively high risk!!

 

[E13]

Further to the greyhounds comment, they also take longer to come round from a GA because, as they have less fat to store the anaesthetic in, it takes longer to leave the brain. They are also some drugs that should not be given to certain breeds, I think it is ACP that should never ever be given to boxers.

As an aside, the interaction of ketamine and felines is interesting - if they are given reversal this can burn out faster than the ketamine so they come round with ketamine still in their system...

Supertrooper I wonder if you could expand on this? (Also without hijacking the thread what is your - or others! - opinion on ketamine, as I seen views against which I have not heard of before!).

 

[Supertrooper]

E13 - your comment re greyhounds was completely correct in the past but the GA drugs used routinely nowadays this isn't the case.

ACP can be used in boxers but with extreme caution ie we would cut the dose down by just under 1/2. We routinely give 0.1ml of ACP with no problems at all.

With Ketamine (which we use in combination with two other drugs) we always give the reversal drug 45mins after they've had it.

 

[E13]

Thanks Supertrooper. Out of interest, what GA drugs were used in the past, as opposed to now? I'm familiar with some of the present day ones.

 

[Supertrooper]

We used Thiopentone for all breeds apart from sighthounds, used Brietal for these and Saffan for cats.

Now we only really use Propofol xx

 

[E13]

I haven't heard of most of those The ones we use, if memory serves me this late at night, are isoflurane (for maintenance), torb dom ket combination, and pre-meds/sedatives.

 

[windand rain]

I believe ther is an issue with Milbemax wormers for collies and some susceptible cats too which can have fatal consequences I have never used it for my cats for that reason

 

[Nikki J]

There isn't any back up literature that I've found, but mals can react badly to vaccines (also, and there is evidence on this, with GA's) - I've heard of several cases.

Yes indeed. My old boy Tai had a cardiac arrest the other day during a GA and will never be able to have another one.

Anaphylaxis is not uncommon with northern breeds, in particular mals.

 

[misterjinglejay]

I'm so sorry to hear that