Highland x TB as a hunter - yr thoughts please

AdorableAlice said:
Perhaps that fact indicates why they are now, very sadly, on the rare breed list. Together with the fact that top end four in hand teams are warmbloods with paces that score well in the dressage phase, have scope to gallop and are more athletic. You only have to look at the teams the Bowmans drive to see that a CB would not have a hope in hell of competing against them.

As a riding horse the CB unless crossed with a TB would not have the speed and scope to event beyond the lower levels, his paces are correct but not special, his look is plain and often coarse through the head.

I don't think they fell out of favour as such, more a case of other breeds improving and becoming more useful than a CB. The one I had in my youth was nice enough and his outlook improved as he aged, but he was never generous and never 'took' me, far more of a 'make me' type of horse. He was also bone idle and paid the price of idleness by turning over out hunting, thankfully he threw me clear but he paid the ultimate price for being careless.

There used to be a splash of CB in some show hunters but not now. There is always a reason why a breed or type of any animal does not thrive be it habitat, predators or usefulness. Sadly for the CB, the Suffolk and the Hackney things are not looking good.
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Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses.. Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.
 
Zuzan said:
Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses.. Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.
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The UK has some of the best riders in the world in all disciplines. They don't ride CB's. Tell me why they don't.
 
I think the CB is a stunning looking horse, and as a partbred, has its uses. However the breed in its original conception, falls between many stools nowadays and is no longer fit for purpose, so far as I can see.

Take the ID for example of a popular breed - the draughts of the 1970s were in the main, jugheaded opinionated thugs, which were still quite close to the "draught" history of the breed. The Irish looked at the breed, looked at the market, and modernised the breed, to make it the attractive, sporty, rideable, trainable breed it is today. If you get a ID with "old" bloodlines, outcrosses, or "throwbacks" even now, you will discover quite how stubborn and opinionated even today's draughts can be.

It isn't possible to "improve" the CB, being (as I understand it) a closed stud book, and the breed society itself strongly resists making the breed a commercial proposition. If they continue down this route, the breed will become extinct as the demands of modern competition have moved past what the CB can offer.

I am still waiting for the competition successes of modern CBs to be listed........

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...od-divides-cleveland-bay-horse-society-314859
 
Zuzan said:
Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses.. Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.
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Define excellent horsemanship vs, say Michael Jung, Michael Eilberg, Michael Whitaker - I don't think they start off with "push button" horses? I think they pick the horses that will produce the goods for them, and sadly, it's not the CB, or even a part bred CB.
 
spacefaer said:
Define excellent horsemanship vs, say Michael Jung, Michael Eilberg, Michael Whitaker - I don't think they start off with "push button" horses? I think they pick the horses that will produce the goods for them, and sadly, it's not the CB, or even a part bred CB.
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Well for a start I have seen Michael Jung rollkur / LDR Sam .. in Show jumping ring Europeans at Fontainbleu... Sorry to disabuse of your perception of excellent horsemanship but those who use rollkur etc aren't in my book excellent horseman.. whilst they may still be effective and winners competitively given the current standards of judging FEI rules and lack of enforcement of them I hardly rate competitve success as proof of excellent horsemanship...

which doesnt mean I think all competive horsemen / women aren't excellent horsepeople ;)
 
... and just because they are not in fashion at present doesn't mean that at some point in the future the CB may become popular once more. I've known a few and to a horse they have been kind, able and sensible. Genetically they probably have a lot to offer - and I'll be happy to bide my time and see what happens with a breed that I have a soft spot for.

Personally I have no time for warmbloods - I've seen too many of the neurotic sorts with suspect joints (I owned a couple, and wasn't too impressed) that don't have longevity in the competing world, but hey - I'm not one to judge. We all have our foibles, likes and dislikes, and just because the CB isn't in vogue at the moment doesn't mean they don't have a place in the world.

By the way ... I thought we were discussing the idea of a Highland x TB? I love both breeds, but as a hunter you can't beat a TB, and you do get the type that could take 15 stone. But I also agree that the ID has the welly to go all day over all terrains and carry their rider safely. Gotta go with that! :D

spacefaer said:
And still no evidence of successful CBs or part bred CBs in the modern day .........
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I am sure Cleveland bays where very good carriage horses when the wealthy needed four smart looking matching horses to pull a coach between two places .
But what's their job today ?
They are not out and about excelling at driving trials which you would think would be their natural home .
We do have the some of the best riders in the world if CB's where so great they would be riding them .
I am always amused by the sort of feeling you get that some people think there's some sort of conspiracy against CB's.
The reason the ID is popular and CB is not is very simple the ID was developed from the start as a multipurpose horse and CB was not the CB was developed to be bay and pull a coach .
The ID has a job in modern world.
 
How long do we wait for them to be popular again, while bewailing their demise in popularity in the meantime :p. I think there are probably more ridden clydies that CBs about! I guess someone could invent a job for them to do, like people who invent new sports and are then the best at them ;) :p
 
ester said:
How long do we wait for them to be popular again, while bewailing their demise in popularity in the meantime :p. I think there are probably more ridden clydies that CBs about! I guess someone could invent a job for them to do, like people who invent new sports and are then the best at them ;) :p
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If we are not careful BD will introduce a Cleveland bay championship!!
Said tongue in cheek btw.

I agree with the use of CB as sports horses, why would you? However I'm also pleased that there are people in this country who are in their side and trying to preserve the breed - it would be a shame to loose them, even if they are just well loved pets for the most part
 
I'm not terribly up on modern competition TBH - the most recent I really know of myself is Harvey Smith who favoured partbreds such as Madison Time.



I believe Spring Pascal is doing quite well in dressage.



Prince Phillip drove a team of PBCBs, Boyd Exell has a PBCB in his indoor team. Oathill Take The Biscuit (commonly known as Hovis) is a successful PB show hunter.



William Tell PB HWH qualified for HOYs and last but not least the Royal carriage horses.

There will be many more out there who are not advertising themselves as a quarter Cleveland or an eighth Cleveland or whatever. For some reason, people are prejudiced against them so they are called tbx by their owners instead.
 
Goldenstar said:
I am sure Cleveland bays where very good carriage horses when the wealthy needed four smart looking matching horses to pull a coach between two places .
But what's their job today ?
They are not out and about excelling at driving trials which you would think would be their natural home .
We do have the some of the best riders in the world if CB's where so great they would be riding them .
I am always amused by the sort of feeling you get that some people think there's some sort of conspiracy against CB's.
The reason the ID is popular and CB is not is very simple the ID was developed from the start as a multipurpose horse and CB was not the CB was developed to be bay and pull a coach .
The ID has a job in modern world.
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The ID has had much better advertising. They're also common unlike CBs. Otherwise they're very similar. They were bred as draft horses, to have a varied role in the household. They could pull a plough, drive the family to church and take a man hunting.
 
The majority of people are not competitors. They don't need a performance horse. They need a sensible, reliable horse to take them hunting or out hacking, riding club, local shows etc. Their horses are still useful, even though they aren't out competing.
 
Hepsibah said:
The majority of people are not competitors. They don't need a performance horse. They need a sensible, reliable horse to take them hunting or out hacking, riding club, local shows etc. Their horses are still useful, even though they aren't out competing.
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Very true and if the CB fitted the bill they would not be as rare as they are now because they would be doing that crucial job as a useful allrounder.
 
Absolutely, but pure CBs aren't filling the requirements of a leisure rider either, mostly because I presume as we have been told earlier in this thread most of us wouldn't be good enough to ride them.
 
Hepsibah said:
The ID has had much better advertising. They're also common unlike CBs. Otherwise they're very similar. They were bred as draft horses, to have a varied role in the household. They could pull a plough, drive the family to church and take a man hunting.
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What do you really mean by common has substance ?
Has a built in calm temperament ? is proven to be versatile ?
The biggest issue the CB has it's dangerously limited gene pool for that reason alone I would not have one .
I actually think common is the wrong word of Cb's they are coach horses and they look like coach horses although some have coarse heads .
I have been thinking about why I dislike them and I do know them one of my first bosses was from Cleveland country and had a few over the years .
I have never met one with a sense of humour something you can't ever say about a ID .
I did know a lovely part bred ,very successful horse he was a sweetie but even that would not tempt me to buy now
 
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ester said:
I thought by common hepsibah meant numerous.
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Yes, I meant easy to get because there are plenty of them.
I agree the gene pool is getting smaller and I think it's a shame the CBHS won't allow any new blood to be introduced to the breed but they are adamant the breed is to be preserved rather than conserved so we are a bit stuck.
I also wouldn't say most riders aren't good enough for them but I would say that riders need to think "pony" rather than "horse" to be able to enjoy them. Those who do enjoy them really, really enjoy them and for those people it would be a great shame if they were put off by the usual prejudice as seen on this forum and dismissed the idea of a Cleveland Bay without ever getting to know one.
 
The CB x highlands they breed up in the highlands are some fine looking animals, who seem quite popular in their own little niche. I wouldn't turn my nose up at one if I were looking for something bigger as an all-rounder.

Wouldn't have pure CB myself, but that's just a laziness towards larger horses more than anything.
 
Maesfen said:
As reasons stated. I'd go for a proper ID x TB, bone and substance with quality. Talking about stubbornness, a CB is up with a Highland for that any day.
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I have (just counting) 6 pure bred and two part bred Cleveland Bays I have never recognised this description.

Ormiston Highlands on Speyside stood a CB stallion for years, the owner adored him and produced some smart and useful hunters by putting him to Highland Mares.
 
spacefaer said:
And still no evidence of successful CBs or part bred CBs in the modern day .........
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Top performing horse on the UK junior dressage team for many years has been Spring Pascall, part-bred CB. John o Gaunt won Burleigh, Lord Fairfax sired two Olympic Show jumpers but the answer from British breeders is 'that was a long time ago'. So was Milton, so was Stroller, so was Red Rum but when H&H asked readers to nominate their all time favourite horses, these three names appeared. Arun Tor and Powder Monkey were top class international dressage horses, as is the Dutch bred stallion Ravel, grandson of the CB stallion Manningford Hermes exported to Holland to 'improve' young stock in a state run stud. The Dutch knew were to shop for the best.

When I started looking for a Shagya stallion no one in the UK had ever heard of one. So we went off to Hungary to the National Stud at Babolna and were told that an Olympic SJ in the UK had Shagya bloodlines. I contacted BS who could tell me nothing of this horse. We purchased this farm in France from a couple who bred AA show jumpers, when I said "Shagya Arab" the wife replied "Aston Answer". Aston Answer was a Grand Prix SJ in her own right, grand daughter of the stallion BASA, Shagya-XII-3(HU), who stood in the UK in 1930's. Aston Answer bred a foal called MILTON. Ramiro-Z was the grandson of the Anglo-Shagya Arab stallion Ramzes, at theWEG in Achen and Kentucky, 45% of the horses competing had Ramzes in their pedigree - but as you all know as well as CB's being stubborn, Arabs don't jump do they?

My point is that because a breed is 'rare' it does not mean it lacks utility. Nor should people continue to brand the CB as a harness horse.

Just to finish my Shagya stallion jumped big fences at Angers on saturday, most of the 40 horses in the class were SF with 1,000's euros of prize money. Our boy did not start jumping till he had completed 3 x90km endurance. Our rider is a well known SJ and after our little chaps amazing display, he was asked "What breed of horse were you riding?" Next year I hope they will be asking the same questions of a talented CB also home bred.

To finish my 'rant' the fact that so many people on this forum know nothing of my two rare breeds does not worry me one bit. A Dutch man who recognised by BEF for services to British Breeding has often said, the British are buying back what they exported to Europe!!
 
Well said, Rollin ... well said ... and as for 'improving' the CB - what on earth would you 'improve' them with? Warmbloods? I think not. There is a place for them in today's equine world. I mean ... what about the Friesian with its upright shoulder and hairy ankles? Draught horses used by undertakers. Yet very popular, and they have a very solid fan base in the horsey world. That's fine by me, and nobody is suggesting they are 'improved' to make them more useful.

The purity of the CB will, in the long run, be its strength. They were bred for stamina and durability. Good coach horses that could stand up to a long working day, not only as posh four-in-hands for the wealthy, but as workaday horses that were teams in coaches running from Lands' End to John O'Groats. Look at any advert for horse auctions at Tattersalls in the 19th century, and you will find sturdy coach horses that had plenty of work left in them and stood up to the pressure of making a living for their owners. These are talents that will in time bring the CB back, given the opportunity. I would say it is more fashion than lack of talent that is harming the CB. They have been the 'improvers', not the reverse.

And I'm a big fan of Shagyas, Rollin. Well done with your little fellow, and it's lovely to see him do so well among the fashionable SFs.
 
Improvement more means not restricting yourself to such a genetically small pool that at some point genetic predisposition to issues will become a problem.

I would argue that friesians have been improved, they have certainly split into baroque and more sporty type, same as IDs
 
Tetrarch 1911 said:
Well said, Rollin ... well said ... and as for 'improving' the CB - what on earth would you 'improve' them with? Warmbloods? I think not. There is a place for them in today's equine world. I mean ... what about the Friesian with its upright shoulder and hairy ankles? Draught horses used by undertakers. Yet very popular, and they have a very solid fan base in the horsey world. That's fine by me, and nobody is suggesting they are 'improved' to make them more useful.
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TBH Freisians are a dreadful ridden horse, they really are cart horses. CBs have a place and I do hope that as a rare breed they can continue, it is worth rare breeds being bred or we will all end up with an amorphous 'warmblood'. I wouldn't want one, but I would much rather have one than a freisian!
Shagyas are different, IMO, as they are more like the original and unimproved arab, they are strong athletic and durable, whereas the little sea horse in hand weeds are the 'improved' version.
 
I am feeling guilty about my comment earlier now. I have known and ridden several CBs (full and half bred) over the years and didn't care for them much-but then if I were to go for a larger horse they would be higher on the list than lots of others.

I am a keen supporter of a different, rare, unfashionable UK breed that people are often very rude about and prejudiced against i.e. Exmoor ponies and know what its like (and I for one do not want the Exmoor breed 'improved') so I apologise.

I think most of us have breeds/types that we click with or ones where we are more accepting of their foibles for whatever reason-particularly when we aren't riding lots of different horses regularly perhaps. Fashionable doesn't mean good or best necessarily-especially when it comes to family mounts/amateur riders.
 
Clodagh said:
Shagyas are different, IMO, as they are more like the original and unimproved arab, they are strong athletic and durable, whereas the little sea horse in hand weeds are the 'improved' version.
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Shagyas are wonderful, but they are tall. If you want an old style arab, then Iranian Asils are predominantly old style desert horses, though some do have a bit of dish.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d8/12/1e/d8121ebbd210f436e9c63327e25afebb.jpg

Of course the Crabbets are still fabulous horses.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I am feeling guilty about my comment earlier now. I have known and ridden several CBs (full and half bred) over the years and didn't care for them much-but then if I were to go for a larger horse they would be higher on the list than lots of others.

I am a keen supporter of a different, rare, unfashionable UK breed that people are often very rude about and prejudiced against i.e. Exmoor ponies and know what its like (and I for one do not want the Exmoor breed 'improved') so I apologise.

I think most of us have breeds/types that we click with or ones where we are more accepting of their foibles for whatever reason-particularly when we aren't riding lots of different horses regularly perhaps. Fashionable doesn't mean good or best necessarily-especially when it comes to family mounts/amateur riders.
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Indeed. It's interesting - a few early posts described highlands as stubborn. It's not a phrase I would generally use to describe mine - they have their moments, but largely, mine are really very compliant. I sent one across a high, narrow bridge over a river the other day without a leader (into the waiting hands of a friend!) while the other gave me one of the best TREC PTV runs of my life a few hours later (despite having had a crashing horse fall that morning on bad ground - not his fault). I would hate to see the highland breed "improved" by outside blood to make it sportier or "less stubborn" or anything like that.

I feel similarly about CBs - even if they are less fashionable than highlands right now. Times change - it wasn't so long ago you did see a fair number of highland x tbs / arabs out and about. They're not fashionable now either, but maybe not forever. Would be a shame if we lost them forever.
 
First of all I have no experience of hunting so couldn't tell you if a Highland cross TB would be suitable or not. However I do own a Pure bred highland and have had her for nearly 15 years. We hack mostly but have taken part in showing ridden and in hand in the past. I also have ridden a highland cross throughbred she was forward going , could jump , she had the looks and hairiness of the highland plus the speed and height of the thoroughbred.
 
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