Highs and Lows of Owning and training an Alpha Male horse (late castrated Gelding)

[the_mighty_peth]

Hello, Just wondered if any of you could please share your experiences of owning an training a gelding who was late castrated? Your successes and challenges with your Alpha Male horses?

We have a big, strapping 6 year old TB gelding, he was castrated at 3 and a half prior to leaving racing. He has huge character, is brave, and physically very strong, he looks like he would make a super eventer - IF we can channel his energy, exuberance and lust for life the right way.

Whilst kind to manage, he can be incredibly opinionated, a dominant bully in the field (safer to turn him out solo) and of course will let out the odd squeal of delight if he sees a mare in season out and about. At present - under saddle he cannot be 100% trusted - you never know what he might do next or when he might say 'No'. He gets bored easily and has low tolerance to nagging and pressure, riding must be through a supple seat, clear aids, and soft hands.

That said, he loves to use his brain, he's as clever as a cat over grids and poles, and for a big blood horse, could probably 'get himself out of jail' on cross country. Next year will likely be his first year eventing, and we are working on strategies to mitigate the risk of him 'boiling over' due to his Alpha Male character and Thoroughbred brain. It seems getting him out and about and exposing him to as much as possible is the way forward.

I have a good working connection with this horse, and for the most part he does look after me. I almost gave up on him, having had many people say he was too much horse for a lady rider. But he does try for me, and my approach, which is working with him and getting him onside through positive encouragement and keeping an interesting, varied work regime, seems to me better than trying to dominate him with sheer strength or defensive riding.

I would love to hear your experiences of your 'Macho horses', the good and the not so good, perhaps when their attitude of male supremacy presented a dangerous challenge...? Many thanks.

 

[TPO]

My previous TB wasnt cut until he was 6 as there was a back up plan to stand him at stud by his owners/racing yard.

Current TB wasnt cut until 3 or 4.

TBH haven't treated or managed them any differently than any other horse/ex racer.

In saying that current TB has only been turned out with geldings and previous TB could go out with mares but would get really "love sick" and could get stuck on them.

I've worked with/ridden stallions before and they were turned out with geldings.

I've personally no experience of the "alpha" type thing you are referring to. They were all handled, trained and managed the same as any other horse with boundaries and clear expectations etc and never had a bother.

Yes both could be highly strung and reactive but it's just a case of working through the issue and what not. I've never attributed anything to the late cut thing.

Sorry not much help at all other than to advise not to get hung up on something and "allow" it to become an excuse. Just treat him like a horse ??‍

ETA if you're looking for training re "connection" and to get him using his brain then look into the Warwick Schiller stuff. Loads of free videos on YouTube and very active FB pages (he posts) alongside The Principles of Training series. If it's your bag theres a subscription service for a "training pathway" etc. Hes got videos working with stallions and bolshy, clever horses if that's the kind of thing you're after

 

[scats]

I had a section A who wasn’t cut til he was 7. He had a bit of an attitude but he was 11.2hh so it was largely amusing. Didn’t treat him any differently to be honest.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The only one I knew of like that was also a late cut ex-racehorse. The lady who bought him turned him away over winter with her mares in a large, steep field. He came back into work with a much nicer attitude, I guess the girls put him in his place.

Also my grey's sire did get a bit too big for his boots once and his owner put him out with her grumpiest broodmare which apparently sorted him out. When I met him after that he was still entire and was happily living with a pony gelding between serving mares.

Sometimes horses need manners reinstilling and another horse (the right horse or horses of course) will do that far better than a human.

ETA - none of the horses in my post had shoes on. It's worth noting that.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've had horses gelded at 3, 4, 9, and 16. Treated them all the same, really. The first two just didn't need to be stallions. Decent examples of their breed, but nothing to write home about. Same with the 9 year old, really. The 16 year old developed melanomas in his testicles/scrotum, so that ended that. None of them gelded due to attitude. All of them easy to handle and train.

But they were all started and trained by competent individuals. All were/are on group turnout.

I don't necessarily agree with this "late cut" reasoning to justify certain behaviors. You have to look at the individual and his background.


My most "alpha" pain in the arse horse was one that was gelded at 1 year. So I couldn't blame it on that ? but he did have some other things (pain, health, and prior training) that did not work to his favor, to be fair.

 

[Wishfilly]

I know two horses who were used to breed, and so castrated at 3 or 4. I knew them in later life, and you honestly would not be able to tell. One was always the herd leader of his herd of all boys, but never in a nasty way. The other geldings just seemed to accept him as boss, and never challenge him!

I also know an arab who was cut very late (about 8 I think). He was the most aggressive stallion I have met (including his son who was lovely, even before being castrated)! Initially, after being cut, he sounded a lot like the horse you describe- sharp, prone to boiling over, talented, but needing very sympathetic riding to bring the best out of him. Over time, he has slowly calmed down, and is now lovely to handle, can go out in a single sex herd, reasonably sensible around mares, able to go out competing without any special management and been reasonably successful in UA eventing and endurance. He definitely does think for himself and can get his rider out of trouble. But it took him a lot of time and consistent handling to get to where he is.

I would say, give him time, have really clear boundaries in place (firm but sympathetic) and maybe that thinking of him as an "alpha male" may not be the most helpful?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I did wonder if being an ex-racehorse has more bearing then being late cut. I had a lovely ex-racer mare and she was definitely mentally damaged by her time in training (specifically the no turnout during that time).

 

[Wishfilly]

I did wonder if being an ex-racehorse has more bearing then being late cut. I had a lovely ex-racer mare and she was definitely mentally damaged by her time in training (specifically the no turnout during that time).

I do think this is possible- and perhaps also his management at stud, if he was ever at stud. It's likely to be a combination of factors, I think?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I doubt it's because he was cut late. It just sounds like he is a racehorse. During racing he would have been treated as just another horse, not pandered to because he was a colt. We are more than used to dealing with them and they get no special treatment. They are expected to be have just as well, of not better than the geldings and fillies.

Is there the possibility that he is a rig?

To be honest you need to get the idea that he is an alpha male out of your head and treat him like a racehorse that needs reschooling or you wont get anywhere.

My big grey lad was gelded at 4yo in Ireland having raced in America as a colt until he was 3yo. Yes he can be quite coltish and playful in the field but no more so than some of my natives that were gelded as yearlings. He is just a happy, playful arsehole.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I do think this is possible- and perhaps also his management at stud, if he was ever at stud. It's likely to be a combination of factors, I think?

I doubt he ever stood at stud. If they don't make the grade on the track they don't cover mares. They certianly never cover whilst still in training for racing.

 

[Michen]

One of mine was cut at 3. He was a nightmare bully in field unless with a mare although never tried to mount one. He’s got that “edge” of attitude to him- I love it. At 8 years old he’s now happily turned out with my other Gelding.

He will squeal and lunge at horses that walk by to close to his stable though. Little git.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It sounds like his just a bit of a quirky not so straight forward TB, one of my Arabs was cut at 4 and he can be dominant in the field but riding and handling his straight forward, I have known a few arabs that were cut late and most were fairly normal geldings I would say generally the getting cut late doesn't have that much impact on the temperament.

 

[baran]

OH's horse was gelded at 6, having covered a few mares. No problems with manners or handling or mixed turnout. Agree with posters who say you need to drop the idea of an alpha male.

 

[NinjaPony]

I've got two ponies. Both cut at 4, both owned by me for 9+ years. 1 is the sweetest, quietest, easiest pony I've ever had.Never looks sideways at a mare, barely notices they exist. Can be turned out with anything no problems, super manners and an all-round pleasure.

Other pony is feisty, defensive and a bit of a handful. Dominant around food, full of himself and can be sharp.

The difference, as far as I'm aware? Pony number one came from an excellent background. Has been consistently well-handled and educated, shown respect and treated with kindness but firmly. Pony number two came to me full of worms, head-shy and with scars on his withers. So surprise surprise, he is the one with an attitude.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the gelding age has less to do with it than you might think. The difference lies in each individual horse-all the kind handling in the world wouldn't turn a feisty welsh pony into a saintly connemara- and in how they are treated.

 

[oldie48]

The coloured gelding was cut at 6 and had covered mares, sect A was cut as a yearling but when 16hh Rose came into season he was mounting her. TBH the coloured was the sweetest most mannerly horse and was everyone's friend. As others have said, I don't think the behaviour is because your horse was late cut.

 

[ycbm]

My 5 year old was cut at 2 1/2, after running with mares and he has 7 offspring. I had an ex racer cut at 4. A close friend had a dressage horse cut at 6.

None of those horses were ever treated any differently from a gelding once the operation had taken effect.

On the other hand, my nightmare bully horse, who even hated his own full brother, was cut at a year old. I had him from 3 to 7 and he never changed.

I think you might get on better if you stop excusing the unwanted behaviour as due to him being late cut and treat him like the over entitled creature he thinks he is.

 

[Scarlett]

Honestly he sounds like an athletic smart 6yo TB, not anything to do with being cut late.

My new boy is 5, came out of racing in Jan and was, I believe, cut quite young yet he acts more like a stallion than my other boy did, who was cut at 4, when he was 6.

All my exracers have been utterly full of themselves at 6 regardless of mare or gelding or whether they were cut at 1 or 4. The best thing for them is hard work and turn out, preferably with others who will remind them of their manners when needed.

Forget the alpha male thing, treat him like a big young horse and get some work into him. Nothing like a lovely smart, sharp TB! Enjoy!

 

[Cortez]

My stallion is less stallion-y than my gelding, and my mule, who was gelded at 4 months, is the worst of the lot (but that's because he is an arse, not because he's a gelding). 3 is really not that late to castrate, they are barely mature at that age and any behaviors are for more likely to be personality than lingering notions of manhood.

 

[McFluff]

Mine was gelded at four, having been used for breeding. He’s the nicest person I’ve met. I’ve never seen him put his ears back at horse or human. He’s turned out in a mixed herd and gets on well with them all. He’s brilliant in warm up areas, as totally not bothered by others and works happily amongst them. He’s generally better in company.
Under saddle he’s sensitive and intelligent, but that is just him. Biggest heart and wants to work with you.