Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

[cptrayes]

Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.

A trial of soaked hay would be so much safer, and the worst that could happen is that it makes no difference...... (And soaking hay really is a doddle, I do it all the time ).

My home made concoction contains exactly what is found in a very expensive supplement called Equishure. Nothing more, and nothing less. It also contains only two things, both of which are routinely feed by thousands of people, either alone or together, on adaily basiis.

How exactly do you think I could be poisoning him??

You may find soaking hay a doddle. I would not find buying, storing, soaking and handling wet hay in mid winter remotely a doddle.

Tell you what, you do what you want and I'll do what I want, bargain?

 

[cptrayes]

If up to date means believing everything we are told by "researchers"working for companies trying to sell us somthing ,without checking it against reality and experience,then I certainly am not "up to date".On the other hand I do have over 40 years experience of selling hay and straw,and direct knowlege of how many hundreds of my customers horses have fared on the various regimes they imposed.
Yes there will always be some mould spores . They even exist in the stems of the growing plant.And as haylage start to dry ,it too disperses mould spores.Mould spores are everywhere ,they are a fact of life on this planet. And horses cope quite adequately with them ,in general. What both horses and humans cannot cope with is large amounts and in particular , the Aspergillus mould .This creates an allergic reaction and permanently damages the breathing. This is not due to hay ,it is due to feeding hay that should never have been anywhere near horses , and should have been burnt.
As for thousands of horse owners feeding haylage without any issues. This is certainly not my experience. If I were to put a figure on it ,I would say that of all the horses I have known on haylage, at least 75% have had some sort of problem. Digestive upsets ,colic, Ulcers. And this figure doesnt include those that develop various vices due to feeling permanently hungry from lack of fibre. However, as I mentioned earlier,haylage has saved many horses with copd and in that respect it has a place as a last resort.But the trick is not to let them get ill in the first place.

Whew, that a relief Mike. I was pretty certain I was going to get home and log on to find you giving me advice about my conservatory and securing a polytunnel. Shows how wrong you can be

Of all the horses owned by my friends and I, the only two to have a problem with haylage are one with Cushings, which is due to the calorie level not the haylage per se, and mine, who was set off by the change of batch coinciding with abnormally warm winter weather and a grass flush, which could equally well have happened with hay.

The equitation centre near me sell a mountain of haylage a year including supplying the veterinary hospital and their own 100 or so resident horses. Three other producers in the same area sell at least as much again between them, making at least half a million in sales in this area alone. Friends of mine run a 100 box livery yard where they supply their own home made haylage. If it caused the problems you suggest, then it would be a lot more obvious than it is.

 

[zigzag]

I have read this thread with interest, and tbh I cannot believe you won't try a little trial with just feeding hay rather than haylage, Also I am sure Equishure is NOT tesco Veg oil and bicarb lol

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tell you what, you do what you want and I'll do what I want, bargain?

Fair enough. Odd reaction, though, from someone who who is asking for advice about a horse with issues. Several of us have pointed out a very easy management change (substituting hay for hayledge) and been rebuffed.

Carry on, I shall bother you no more!

 

[cptrayes]

Fair enough. Odd reaction, though, from someone who who is asking for advice about a horse with issues. Several of us have pointed out a very easy management change (substituting hay for hayledge) and been rebuffed.

Carry on, I shall bother you no more!

I think you'll find if you check that the first time the idea of swapping to hay was suggested was by me, followed immediately by an explanation of why I wanted to try other things first, which was promptly ignored by a number of people trying to tell me how wrong I am and that everything that I know would be difficult will be easy if only I listen to them

 

[cptrayes]

I have read this thread with interest, and tbh I cannot believe you won't try a little trial with just feeding hay rather than haylage, Also I am sure Equishure is NOT tesco Veg oil and bicarb lol

It's vegetable oil and bicarb. Check the website for the spec.

This horse has eaten haylage perfectly well for three years. He has been temporarily upset by a change of batch giving very mild ridden symptoms of kicking out when I put my leg on, now all gone.

Right at this moment, I fail to see why it would be a sensible move on my part to completely change the management of three horses in a way which will make life much more difficult for me.

It's my choice. Live with it

 

[paddy555]

no I don't think it is. I fed bicarb before equishure. It did help but did not make it to the hind gut. Equishure is an extremely expensive product that seems to do what it says on the tin for those horses that have that particular problem. Tesco oil and bicarb it ain't!

 

[zigzag]

It's vegetable oil and bicarb. Check the website for the spec.

This horse has eaten haylage perfectly well for three years. He has been temporarily upset by a change of batch giving very mild ridden symptoms of kicking out when I put my leg on, now all gone.

Right at this moment, I fail to see why it would be a sensible move on my part to completely change the management of three horses in a way which will make life much more difficult for me.

It's my choice. Live with it

I don't need to live with it, I don't care what you do to your horse, I am just surprised you asked for advice, several people suggested not feeding haylage and you would not consider it

 

[cptrayes]

I don't need to live with it, I don't care what you do to your horse, I am just surprised you asked for advice, several people suggested not feeding haylage and you would not consider it

Which bit are you finding hard to understand?

I had ALREADY considered it, and said so, before anyone else suggested it. So don't get on your high horse about me ignoring advice, it is other people ignoring what I have already written that I'm getting fed up with.

 

[cptrayes]

Deleted

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Back to ace....can you explain what's diff about him? ta

 

[cptrayes]

Back to ace....can you explain what's diff about him? ta

Quieter in the eye. Spongy/soft in temperament. No overreaction to my leg. Bigger, softer balls of poo that break open easily. No fluid following a poo. Drastically reduced tail flashing (this is a very long standing habit of his since before I bought him, probably due to his back, but also present with gut issues). No digital pulses.

He did have shiny poo this morning - which is a sign of gut disturbance to me and usually goes with raised pulses, but in this case I believe was simply the oil that I am using to carry the bicarb.

He did skip this morning when I asked for his first trot much sooner than usual, but that is a leftover from the back operation I think. The rest of his work was very sweet

Having said all that, it's possible that he is simply stabilizing his gut on the new season haylage, that he is better because the grass has finally stopped getting growth flushes, that he is beginning to trust after 12 weeks ridden that his back no longer hurts, that the alfalfa I started a month ago has stabilised him, or a combination of all of those things.

If only we could separate one from the next we'd know, but some of those variables I have no influence over :-(

 

[cptrayes]

I fed bicarb before equishure. It did help but did not make it to the hind gut. Equishure is an extremely expensive product that seems to do what it says on the tin for those horses that have that particular problem. Tesco oil and bicarb it ain't!

Did you soak the bicarb in oil before you put it in the feed? Equishure is bicarb bound in vegetable oil with an emulsifier to turn it solid.

I suspect that the additional cost is for the testing and then the marketing, not the ingredients.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Thanks, it's very interesting. Will check in again next week and see how he is, am loathe to chance changing anything before addington high profile next week but maybe after that I might do an Equisure versus CPT supp trial!

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks, it's very interesting. Will check in again next week and see how he is, am loathe to chance changing anything before addington high profile next week but maybe after that I might do an Equisure versus CPT supp trial!

Well that would be interesting. With results like yours with CS after the length of time it's taken to find out how to get his gut right, it's not a risk I'd ever be taking, especially since the Egusin you use now is so very different in composition.

 

[Fuzzypuff]

I've started mine on bicarb and corn oil now (he gets corn oil anyway), though I did notice he was improving the day I started it so it may be he is going to get better anyway. Will see how he goes!

 

[cptrayes]

Holey moley jeepers creepers.

I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.

Then I tipped off the tea and put more boiling water into the wet haylage. I could not believe my eyes. The meter shot down to just below four. That is seriously acidic. Way, way more acid than malt vinegar

No wonder the poor boy has issues!!

I am starting a trial of soaking it for 24 hours, draining it and then rinsing it again. If that does not stop him skipping about like he did for no apparent reason today, then I will buy hay.

My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.

 

[cptrayes]

Holey moley jeepers creepers.

I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.

Then I tipped off the tea and put more boiling water into the wet haylage. I could not believe my eyes. The meter shot down to just below four. That is seriously acidic. Way, way more acid than malt vinegar

No wonder the poor boy has issues!!

I am starting a trial of soaking it for 24 hours, draining it and then rinsing it again. If that does not stop him skipping about like he did for no apparent reason today, then I will buy hay.

My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.

 

[paddy555]

My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.

yes strange isn't it, still if you have found a possible reason that is great.

If you have to go down the hay route are you able to set up a bath soaking system to cut down on the work? ours really does make it easy peasy to do and it didn't cost much to set up.

 

[cptrayes]

yes strange isn't it, still if you have found a possible reason that is great.

If you have to go down the hay route are you able to set up a bath soaking system to cut down on the work? ours really does make it easy peasy to do and it didn't cost much to set up.

I'm soaking the haylage anyway, to get the acidity down. I have one soaker, I soak haylage in summer to get the sugar down. I've just bought another on eBay, so that I can have one batch soaking while another drains, to get it as dry as I can before I have to lift it. I'll bet the weather goes sub zero now!

We don't have mains water, and it takes a long time to fill by gravity, and judging by my tea experiments I need to drain it and then rinse it through again. What a palaver we go through for these horses!

 

[paddy555]

We don't have mains water, and it takes a long time to fill by gravity, and judging by my tea experiments I need to drain it and then rinse it through again. What a palaver we go through for these horses!

we had the same problem when we were still on a spring. Wasted time so we installed a "tank" (a plastic 45gall type container £10 from the recycling centre). Plumbed the water into it with ball valve in it. That meant we always had a large quantity of water available to fill the soaker quickly and it could refill slowly by gravity in it's own time.

 

[Yertis]

I am a numpty at things like this but would adding bicarb to the soaking water reduce the acidity of the haylage so that you wouldn't have to rinse as well?

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, if the haylage absorbs it, but it's a 200 litre tub and it would take a lot. But I don't rule it out if the water that I am about to test has not increased in acidity overnight. If the soaking water isn't more acidic, then the haylage won't be less acidic. Thank goodness for ph meters

 

[cptrayes]

we had the same problem when we were still on a spring. Wasted time so we installed a "tank" (a plastic 45gall type container £10 from the recycling centre). Plumbed the water into it with ball valve in it. That meant we always had a large quantity of water available to fill the soaker quickly and it could refill slowly by gravity in it's own time.

Yes, if this becomes a permanent feature of life I will have to get my resident handyman to do that as well.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Well that would be interesting. With results like yours with CS after the length of time it's taken to find out how to get his gut right, it's not a risk I'd ever be taking, especially since the Egusin you use now is so very different in composition.

i will know within 24 hours if its a no go or a goer, he's very definate in what suits him and what doesnt lol, which makes it easier to sort stuff out i guess.

 

[amandap]

I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.

I so wish someone would invent a WSC or even better an NSC strip for home use!

 

[cptrayes]

Yes I'm lucky to have a resident geek with all the gear Amanda

The liquor that came off this morning was down 0.7 in ph. Given that it was in 150 litres of water as an absolute minimum, that is a very, very big amount of acid removed from the haylage. I am very hopeful that he will now settle right down.

Which would be a relief as I have over five hundred quids worth of haylage still to use.

Meanwhile, of course, I have now completely invalidated my mockushure trial, but having discovered a serious issue with the haylage, I couldn't simply ignore it.

 

[paddy555]

l, but having discovered a serious issue with the haylage, I couldn't simply ignore it.

hopefully you have got it in time. We think a similar situation to this was the original problem of one of ours. As a youngster, about 8 - 15 months he was kept on his own causing a lot of stress and anxiety. His only feed was grass which was poor and acidic. Sometimes cattle were put into his field. They would have been fed on poor quality big bale silage which he would obviously eat as well. I hate to think what the PH of that would have been. We have had no end of problems with his gut and knocking on to his behaviour.

 

[cptrayes]

hopefully you have got it in time. We think a similar situation to this was the original problem of one of ours. As a youngster, about 8 - 15 months he was kept on his own causing a lot of stress and anxiety. His only feed was grass which was poor and acidic. Sometimes cattle were put into his field. They would have been fed on poor quality big bale silage which he would obviously eat as well. I hate to think what the PH of that would have been. We have had no end of problems with his gut and knocking on to his behaviour.

This is interesting. I was pretty sure when I bought him that mine had already had a bout of laminitis. I am increasingly of the opinion that it causes lasting gut damage..

 

[Fuzzypuff]

i will know within 24 hours if its a no go or a goer, he's very definate in what suits him and what doesnt lol, which makes it easier to sort stuff out i guess.

Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!