Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

cptrayes

cptrayes

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I am trying to find the right, and most cost effective, supplement to prevent hind gut acidosis in my seven year old gelding, who is very sensitive to changes in grass and other food.

Can you please tell me:

What supplements have you tried that worked?
How much do they cost to feed?

What supplements have you tried that did not work?

I have tried Settlex, with no success.

Omeprazole is 100% effective but illegal for the affordable horse version and difficult for the human version.

His basic diet is ad lib haylage and soaked alfalfa pellets with 50g Brewers yeast.

Thanks for any help you can give. Leftover turkey and dried up Christmas cake are all that's left I'm afraid :)
 
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Hi ive always fed yea sac which is alive along side brewers yeast. The 2 together seem to work much better than brewers alone.x
 
cptrayes said:
Leftover turkey and dried up Christmas cake are all that's left I'm afraid :)
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not very inspiring but I'll still try and help.

For 2 of mine which have HGA:-

get rid of all molasses
get rid of sugar beet/speedibeet or SB in any form
feed alfalfa pellets and copra. (both soaked)
hay and some grass (in at night) continual forage all night with some left over in the morning

most important is a nice warm rug and sort out the management problems. For one of mine he wants to be stabled at night with the doors shut, no chance to wander and a very kind but dominant horse stabled with it's head over his stable door all night. For others it is obviously something different but in view of the cost this needs sorting or it is a total waste of money.

supplements that work for my 2

am
limestone flour
salt,
metabal for one the other doesn't get any
magox
bicarb

pm
stable label charcoal

then equishure 3 times a day (but that could be twice if necessary) fed at 3 scoops (ie 90g) for aprox 500-525 kg. That is the dose for no grain, some grass and rest in hay.

I have no idea of the cost of that lot and I don't even want to think about it I only know that it works and it took me a long time to get there.

(equishure is 7.2kg £143 from saracen)
 
Thanks very much people. I've found a mouldy mince pie if that's any better :D?

I have stopped the sugar beet yesterday because I realised I don't need to soak beet if I have wet alfalfa to put supplements in.

Coincidentally, he was on yea sacc and brewers yeast together when he got bad this time around, because Iwas in the middle of changing to pro hoof, so that may not be an answer for him.

I have had him on charcoal in the past but it does worry me what other things it may take out than the bad things. I don't remember it being very effective for him either. I didn't finish the huge tub I had and still have some left.

The Settlex is largely calcium and magnesium salts, so limestone flour is probably not going to do the job except in combination with other stuff. I had no idea some horses need so many different things, that's a bit concerning.


I know I should try him on hay but it would be a real problem as I have nowhere to store a hay delivery and I've had real problems with bad hay in bad weather years in the past.

Management issues are OK I think. Out all day on 12 acres of rough grazing, in a barn together with his buddy all night with haylage left in the morning. They seem to get on well and will share food, though the other is certainly the leader he is no bully.

I was so hoping someone would say equishure doesn't work, it's horrendously expensive!!! Still, if he must have it, he must have it.

Any more contributions gratefully received. I'll try and find a better mince pie.

Thanks!
 
I appreciate times will be hard if he has to have equishure so I have a pack of new, fresh and unopened mince pies I could let you have. They will be a special treat for you before you move onto the bread and water diet after buying equishure. We are already enjoying the bread and water diet as we have 2 on it.

My comments on equishure in detail are in the hind gut thread in "diet" on phoenix. Financially I wish it hadn't worked but then I just take a look at the horses and see how much happier they are and how their performance has improved. MIne have been on it since 1 Nov and I see no way of going back. It has changed digestion in the hind gut. I suspect the people it doesn't work for may have stomach ulcers as well and that is their real problem. You have obviously dealt with those with omeprazole.

I agree the comments on charcoal. I seperate it from supplements and as the supplements seem to work I presume this is OK. Not ideal but the horse's comfort is the most important. Charcoal doesn't seem to affect the equishure.

I'm afraid it is trial and error, bit like barefoot. What one can get away with another horse cannot.

ps, forgot to include the 200g of linseed per day. sorry.
 
Paddy that is so kind of you. I can't take a whole pack though, just send me one. Or better make it two or the OH will sulk all week :)
 
My ex racer has been put on to Top spec feeds and no supplements and what a difference. Would definately recommend them.
 
Another vote for Equishure - my mare has been on it just 7 days after 6 days finishing up some RiteTrac and is already much more comfortable in herself and happier in work - although I might follow the suggestion above and take her off beetpulp for a bit, see if that helps too, thanks for that tip :)
 
Flora said:
My ex racer has been put on to Top spec feeds and no supplements and what a difference. Would definately recommend them.
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This is very interesting. Anecdotally, a lot of barefoot horses go footie on Top Spec products and I have personally seen my friend's horse stop itching the moment he was taken off a Top Spec balancer.

Which one is he on?
 
Hen said:
Another vote for Equishure - my mare has been on it just 7 days after 6 days finishing up some RiteTrac and is already much more comfortable in herself and happier in work - although I might follow the suggestion above and take her off beetpulp for a bit, see if that helps too, thanks for that tip :)
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I am kicking myself for not thinking about the beet pulp, though in my defence I do de-sugar it. I once had a TB mare who simply would not put on any weight until I took her of beet pulp, totally against what was recommended at the time.


I so do not want to spend fifteen quid a week on equishure. Please can two people balance this thread by telling me it doesn't work or that something that costs ten p works just as well :D !!!
 
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Worth reading the thread on hind gut disturbances on the Phoenix forum - I recommended equishure to a few people after very positive results with rite-trac on my TB. I'm now using equishure - highly recommend but pricey! I also still feed bicarbonate and also veg oil. I Do find behaviour is better when getting veg oil in feed.

Essentially with HGA the gut is over acidic, which kills off beneficial bacteria and promotes bad bacteria which then produce even more lactic acid, and so the cycle continues. Overspill from the stomach, too much starch, can all contribute to lowering the ph. I try and feed as small a feed as possible now, and muzzle when on longish grass to stop over spilling and a starch onslaught! And of course ad lib forage when stabled. Equishure works so well though as its a time release buffer (bicarbonate) to ensure it gets to the hind gut. Bicarbonate gets used up in the stomach, and ime whilst I think it does help to a certain extent, it isn't effective enough to raise the ph and break the cycle. Other supplements from what I can see dont target the problem, ie raise the ph, only 'support' the gut, which is likely a waste of time if all your good bacteria are being killed off as the ph is to low!
 
alsxx said:
Worth reading the thread on hind gut disturbances on the Phoenix forum - I recommended equishure to a few people after very positive results with rite-trac on my TB. I'm now using equishure - highly recommend but pricey! I also still feed bicarbonate and also veg oil. I Do find behaviour is better when getting veg oil in feed.

Essentially with HGA the gut is over acidic, which kills off beneficial bacteria and promotes bad bacteria which then produce even more lactic acid, and so the cycle continues. Overspill from the stomach, too much starch, can all contribute to lowering the ph. I try and feed as small a feed as possible now, and muzzle when on longish grass to stop over spilling and a starch onslaught! And of course ad lib forage when stabled. Equishure works so well though as its a time release buffer (bicarbonate) to ensure it gets to the hind gut. Bicarbonate gets used up in the stomach, and ime whilst I think it does help to a certain extent, it isn't effective enough to raise the ph and break the cycle. Other supplements from what I can see dont target the problem, ie raise the ph, only 'support' the gut, which is likely a waste of time if all your good bacteria are being killed off as the ph is to low!
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He is such a good doer that I have not dared feed him oil. I do my other one.

The equishure is 35% fat, so I can see why horses would settle on it.
 
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It's basically bicarbonate and hydrogenated veg oil.... Somehow that combination is the time release buffer. So I do wonder if by feeding plain bicarbonate and veg oil I'm somehow simulating the action of the equishure. He's definitely grumpier when my veg oil runs out and I don't replace immediately ie has a few days off it.

Oh and also stopped feeding beet pulp and noticeable improvement too, wish I'd tried that ages ago lol!!
 
ive been feeding my sons pony ritetrac (which contains equishure) for a week and seen a massive improvement with him not bitting and putting his ears back when groomed/rugged.

reading the above people are saying beep pulp isnt good - i feed speedibeet as its unmollassed - can anyone tell me why this is not a good idea as my vet says its good as it contains a high level of pectins yet has no mollasses added???
 
cptrayes said:
He is such a good doer that I have not dared feed him oil. I do my other one.

The equishure is 35% fat, so I can see why horses would settle on it.
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mine are both good doers and I give them (each feed) 8oz dry copra (soaked) 8oz dry alfalfa pellets (soaked) and 100g linseed. Although they are relatively small amounts they are sufficient to produce a decent size feed to get stuff down them. My real reason for feeding this though is to soothe the gut and that is what it seems to do.
I work on the basis that if I can keep them comfortable they can do more work which will help the good doer problem.


Sorry cannot work out the multi quote thing but the last sentence in Alsxx post 9.15 refers. Everything else I have tried just supports the gut. That is what the copra, alfalfa, does. They all help but they don't actually resolve the problem.
 
whiteflower said:
ive been feeding my sons pony ritetrac (which contains equishure) for a week and seen a massive improvement with him not bitting and putting his ears back when groomed/rugged.

reading the above people are saying beep pulp isnt good - i feed speedibeet as its unmollassed - can anyone tell me why this is not a good idea as my vet says its good as it contains a high level of pectins yet has no mollasses added???
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I don't think it is the molasses but that the beet pulp is more indigestible. For many horses I doubt that matters but for gut problem ones it may be more important. That is only a guess. I removed it from my gut problem horses nearly a year ago and noticed improvement. I found copra and alfalfa helped the situation, they certainly didn't hinder it. Sugar beet seemed to hinder it.

I searched the net for info about sugar beet but there wasn't much to suggest it was a problem and many, like your vet, had good reasons to use it. I just went on evidence based results from when I removed it.
 
paddy555 said:
mine are both good doers and I give them (each feed) 8oz dry copra (soaked) 8oz dry alfalfa pellets (soaked) and 100g linseed. Although they are relatively small amounts they are sufficient to produce a decent size feed to get stuff down them. My real reason for feeding this though is to soothe the gut and that is what it seems to do.
I work on the basis that if I can keep them comfortable they can do more work which will help the good doer problem.
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Mine is getting just the alfalfa in about that quantity, plus ad lib haylage overnight and as much rough grass as he can eat during the day,, and he has more weight than he needs, though his ribs are still easily felt. He's a 17 hand warmblood who simply loathes hacking out, so increasing his work wouldn't be easy.

On the diet yours are on he'd be putting on weight. I have never come across a horse his size and build who makes so much of his food. It doesn't fit with stomach ulcers and HGA at all !!
 
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cptrayes said:
It doesn't fit with stomach ulcers and HGA at all !!
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I've come to the conclusion that everything said about horses that shouldn't get ulcers due to nice lifestyle, they eat well etc etc is rubbish. With mine I looked for the cause of the problem ie what actually caused the stress. I know the answer for both of them but luckily I know their entire life history.

Do you know what caused your horse's problem? do you know his early history?
 
paddy555 said:
I've come to the conclusion that everything said about horses that shouldn't get ulcers due to nice lifestyle, they eat well etc etc is rubbish. With mine I looked for the cause of the problem ie what actually caused the stress. I know the answer for both of them but luckily I know their entire life history.

Do you know what caused your horse's problem? do you know his early history?
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His early history as far as I know it is very suspicious. He was apparently shipped unbroken from Germany to Holland as a four year old, to the dealer who sources horses for the dealer in the UK I bought him off. They have his half brother, so this much is true, I think. But it's extremely unusual for a horse of his calibre not to have been backed at three in Germany.

He had bull nosed hind feet when I bought him, and I'm on record from then saying that I believed he had laminitis earlier in his life, which may have prevented him being backed earlier and also resulted in him being shipped off to another country to be sold.

I have had one before that was laminitic at two, before I bought him, and when he hit maturity at seven I had to remove him from grazing even though he was eventing BE novice and hard fit.

This one is also now seven, and his gut is as sensitive as hell :(

I think the early laminitis primes their gut for issues later in life when their metabolic rate drops due to being fully grown. It's a theory with some support from research, as the thread on losing weight in winter has shown.

I plan to have him tested for Cushings at his next visit from a vet. Though I suspect his main problem is that he is an extremely introverted worrier. He just cuts off when under stress and does not outwardly express his emotions. And in just now writing that, I have made the connection with the other horse I have described, who was temperamentally very similar. I hadn't thought of that before, because that one was an outright laminitic. But at the time I did not know about copper deficiency in my grazing, and now I supplement copper, leaving just more minor temperament issues when under saddle. But this horse also got sore feet the first summer I had him, before I started the copper. Wow, it all ads up!!!
 
I am a bit confused here I did not think omperazole was effective for hind gut ulcers in fact I thought its linked to increasing the risk of them .
If you have gastro scoped and found no stomach ulcers then blood work can show the presence of ulcers in the colon.
These are tricky things to manage its my understanding you need reduce bulk in the colon to deal with them restricting the horse to lots a small meals and hand grazing for short periods
If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.
 
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cptrayes said:
This is very interesting. Anecdotally, a lot of barefoot horses go footie on Top Spec products and I have personally seen my friend's horse stop itching the moment he was taken off a Top Spec balancer.

Which one is he on?
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He is on Cool condition cubes, top chop alfalfa, Cool balancer an water! He always has a handful of chaff before riding too.
 
Goldenstar said:
If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.
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mine got specialist help. This time last year my vet's bill had come to over £2000 including a stay in vet hospital where he went as an emergency. He was no happier by the time he came home and this time last year I was sent flying onto the ground and ended up badly winded as he seriously kicked me in the stomach due to his pain. He was unrideable.

This year so far it has cost me £75 for equishure, I have the most gorgeous horse who will let me do anything around his backside and who is totally happy and out of pain. He is enjoying every minute of his riding.

Nothing against vets, they are wonderful, but I have found that this is something you need to think out for yourself.

CPT,
if he is an introverted worrier is this why he doesn't like hacking? Is the stress from gut pain making him uncomfortable and completing another worrying cycle? This happened with one of mine. I can identify with so many of your comments. I have heard this story once before with a KWPN and seen a similar situation with another KWPN. I didn't know enough at the time to recognise it. I know yours is probably a different warmblood but I suspect they may have had the same importing type history and potential for problems.

So much is regarded as a foot problem , or a diet problem, or a back problem or a conformation problem. Keep thinking. Everything adds up and for me with 2 gut problem horses it certainly hasn't added up in the way that I thought it would do. I guess you will be starting to wonder by now about some of the little things about your horses. Is there another explanation?

ps for both of mine there has been a happy ending.
 
Goldenstar said:
I am a bit confused here I did not think omperazole was effective for hind gut ulcers in fact I thought its linked to increasing the risk of them .
If you have gastro scoped and found no stomach ulcers then blood work can show the presence of ulcers in the colon.
These are tricky things to manage its my understanding you need reduce bulk in the colon to deal with them restricting the horse to lots a small meals and hand grazing for short periods
If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.
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Where have I said anything about hind gut ulcers? The horse had probable stomach ulcers which are very often found in horses with kissing spines. He was not scoped for them but he responded exactly as expected to treatment with Omeprazole. The drug is very safe, so please no lectures about not having put him through the stress of being scoped.

I have never seen anything which suggests that Omeprazole increases the risk of hind gut ulcers. But in spite of the fact that it is not the recommended treatment, I have seen many anecdotes that say it does actually resolve symptoms of hind gut ulcers.

What my horse has is not hind gut ulcers, it is hind gut acidosis which is brought on by any change of feed. He was most recently affected by a move to a new season of haylage, exacerbated by wild swings in temperature affecting grass growth and sugars.

He expresses his upset by mild behavioural difficulties when first asked to move faster. His droppings go shiny, which I have seen before as a precursor to a laminitic response. All these things disappear in three days to Omeprazole, even though in theory they should not. But as I said before, I'm not the only person who has experienced that effect.

I know that it is the hind gut which is out of balance because of how he behaved when it was his stomach (girthy), the fact that it began to affect his feet (mildly aching toes causing him to stand under) and some other subtle signs which disappear once he has defecated.

This horse does not tolerate gut pain in any way. If he currently had ulcers anywhere in his alimentary canal, I would simply not be able to stay on his reaction to them.

Thank you for your concern, but as I have no reason to believe that he has hind gut ulcers, it is misplaced at the current time.
 
paddy555 said:
mine got specialist help. This time last year my vet's bill had come to over £2000 including a stay in vet hospital where he went as an emergency. He was no happier by the time he came home and this time last year I was sent flying onto the ground and ended up badly winded as he seriously kicked me in the stomach due to his pain. He was unrideable.

This year so far it has cost me £75 for equishure, I have the most gorgeous horse who will let me do anything around his backside and who is totally happy and out of pain. He is enjoying every minute of his riding.

Nothing against vets, they are wonderful, but I have found that this is something you need to think out for yourself.

CPT,
if he is an introverted worrier is this why he doesn't like hacking? Is the stress from gut pain making him uncomfortable and completing another worrying cycle? This happened with one of mine. I can identify with so many of your comments. I have heard this story once before with a KWPN and seen a similar situation with another KWPN. I didn't know enough at the time to recognise it. I know yours is probably a different warmblood but I suspect they may have had the same importing type history and potential for problems.

So much is regarded as a foot problem , or a diet problem, or a back problem or a conformation problem. Keep thinking. Everything adds up and for me with 2 gut problem horses it certainly hasn't added up in the way that I thought it would do. I guess you will be starting to wonder by now about some of the little things about your horses. Is there another explanation?

ps for both of mine there has been a happy ending.
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I've had two warm blood horses in a row who are terrified of hacking. The first was a KWPN. I have never come across the extreme dislike of hacking in any other horses, in spite of my previous history including taking on a number of nappy horses that other people could not manage and sorting them out. The last one was terrified of change, to the extent that he would refuse to pass along a road where daffodils had grown since the last time he went there. This one turns for home even if it in company with the two horses he lived with!!!

For the moment, I have stopped making him do it, following your theory that we simply have a vicious circle going on with the acid gut and fear of being away from home. His job is dressage anyway and he is working really well following his kissing spines rehab. I had some really special canter this morning :)

He really is a gem of a horse, he is so absolutely honest. He loves his work as long as he is not in pain. So the moment his work deteriorates, you know you have to find the reason for the deterioration.

From the incredible increase in his overtrack in walk and trot, and the softness of his back muscles, I know the kissing spines is all gone. From his reaction to Omeprazole, I know the other issue is gut balance. So all I have to do now is find what keeps his gut stable without drugs. Alfalfa is looking good. Sugar beet removal is looking good. I'm thinking more of trying a mix of margarine (oil with monoglycerides) and sodium bicarbonate, which from what I have researched is pretty much what equishure is.

I'm very interested that you had a proper investigation done. I certainly don't feel it will benefit mine, whose only really noticeable symptom is some gentle protest about being asked to get a move on :)
 
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goodl luck CPT. There is no single answer. It only appears in hindsight!!! don't they all! Personally I wouldn't see much point in investigation as you are still down to management. Keeping the hind gut stable and I am sure that is different for each horse. What stresses one doesn't stress another.

I will be interested to hear how you get on. So much is linked.

Equishure is bicarb and hydrogenated veg oil. I have no idea what they do to it. I do know it reaches the hind gut. However, if you find cheap solution my bank balance will be eternally grateful!
 
Cptrayes, I've also heard that omeprazole can negatively affect the hind gut. For what it's worth, mine was scoped and had grade 4 stomach ulcers, and what followed was a 5 month course of omeprazole. His behaviour actually deteriorated during treatment and he became very reluctant to go forward, and would try and swing his quarters out to the right, as well as becoming reluctant to canter left. As we were already at the vets I had this looked at and I ended up with a vague 'it's his hock', which was medicated.

It wasn't until my usual vet went on mat leave and we started seeing another vet, that we finally got the cause of the problem. HGA - she recommended rite trac, and we had a brilliant discussion regarding the probability that the HGA was why I had a TB that was hugely grass sensitive (had a bout of laminitis). Subsequent research/reading I have done also suggests right hind issues are another symptom of HGA. We've had no recurrence of that hock problem in 2.5 years since it was medicated, which on the basis this is a rising 13 yr old ex racehorse that ran almost 50 times, I actually find surprising.... But wait, when the HGA flairs up, he starts to back off and becomes harder to keep straight. Coincidence??

Sorry to ramble.... But worth considering the omeprazole may be helping one thing, only to hinder another.
 
Thanks alsxx. That is very interesting. I am keen to find a dietary solution. He's not a severe case, it should be possible.
 
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