Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

We have a 2yr old warmblood x ID and he has a liquid bowel -nothing comes out of him solid. We have tried brewers yeast and omeprazole to no avail
We have since discovered he was hand reared as his mother died during his birth . He has never produced a solid poo. He smells terrible! He definitely has acidosis but we think its because he never ate poo as a new foal to populate his bowel with the correct flora. We are currently toying with the idea of feeding him poo from a healthy horse to see if repopulating his bowel will help. We are working with the theory that nothing we do will make any difference if he doesnt have the bacteria to start with!
 
cptrayes - this is not so much to do with hindgut acidosis but recently a nutrtionist suggested that horse be given a small bulk feed shortly prior to riding as it stops acid slopping around reducing the risk of ulcers and for those with ulcers it buffers them.

plum duff - the feeding of poo from a healthy horse will be the best thing you could ever do for this horse - I have seen it done to a pony with severe runs and within days he came right.
 
Goldenstar said:
I feel EUGSIN was the supplement I had most success with .
And I have also heard excellent things about Suceed .
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Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes ;)

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.
 
Not quite the same as acidosis but my 3.5yr old filly has a hind gut problem. She has a thickened bit of large intestine with a small impaction before it, it can be felt rectally. Shes had this at least two years now, might even have been born with it, don't know... Twice she has had gastrogard and both times it made her mildly colicky/uncomfortable all the time, i didn't know she had the thickened bit of large intestine problem when she had the gastrogard but i will never give her any again. Mix of gastrogard, steroids and sedation badly affected her, twice, and it took months to get her right, when she was quite bad with it she was quite weak on her back legs each time, the left hind slightly worse and her problem bit of intestine is on her leftside but don't know if that had anything to do with that, i thought it was probably because she was spending a lot of time lying down, she was also stupidly spooky, shes a spooky sort anyway but was much worse back then. Also really dragged her back toes, which she does also do for a few days after sedation (sedation really slows her gut movement). A few months of doxycycline sorted all that out after which i looked at the different supplements available for hindgut problems but in the end decided to try micronized linseed, pink powder and a Vit E supplement. She has been on these almost a year now and so far she is doing well on them (touchwood!). She is about 400kg and has 500 grams of micronized linseed a day split into 4 feeds with speedibeet, grass nuts and a handful bran to soak up the water as she also has tooth problems and hates watery feeds. She has adlib hay and no grass at all.
 
Tnavas said:
cptrayes - this is not so much to do with hindgut acidosis but recently a nutrtionist suggested that horse be given a small bulk feed shortly prior to riding as it stops acid slopping around reducing the risk of ulcers and for those with ulcers it buffers them.
.
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He is always feed immediately before riding. It's just my normal routine so I didn't have to change anything when I found out that it was good for horses with ulcers.
 
nikkimariet said:
Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes ;)

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.
Click to expand...

I was hoping PS would tell me what she used. Thanks :)
 
My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?
 
Silverfire said:
Not quite the same as acidosis but my 3.5yr old filly has a hind gut problem. She has a thickened bit of large intestine with a small impaction before it, it can be felt rectally. Shes had this at least two years now, might even have been born with it, don't know... Twice she has had gastrogard and both times it made her mildly colicky/uncomfortable all the time, i didn't know she had the thickened bit of large intestine problem when she had the gastrogard but i will never give her any again. Mix of gastrogard, steroids and sedation badly affected her, twice, and it took months to get her right, when she was quite bad with it she was quite weak on her back legs each time, the left hind slightly worse and her problem bit of intestine is on her leftside but don't know if that had anything to do with that, i thought it was probably because she was spending a lot of time lying down, she was also stupidly spooky, shes a spooky sort anyway but was much worse back then. Also really dragged her back toes, which she does also do for a few days after sedation (sedation really slows her gut movement). A few months of doxycycline sorted all that out after which i looked at the different supplements available for hindgut problems but in the end decided to try micronized linseed, pink powder and a Vit E supplement. She has been on these almost a year now and so far she is doing well on them (touchwood!). She is about 400kg and has 500 grams of micronized linseed a day split into 4 feeds with speedibeet, grass nuts and a handful bran to soak up the water as she also has tooth problems and hates watery feeds. She has adlib hay and no grass at all.
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Crumbs you've had some problems there. Well done for coping with them. I was intrigued by one bit of what you wrote, and that is that my boy started to drag his hind toes ever so slightly when he got touchy to ride, and that has now gone again so it seems it was connected.
 
cptrayes said:
I was hoping PS would tell me what she used. Thanks :)
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I think I mentioned it you on the omeprazole thread :) I do hope it works for Ace.

springtime1331 said:
My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?
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It is expensive at first - but CS is now on a maintenance dose and perfectly happy with that. Although we increase it slightly on show days.
 
springtime1331 said:
My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?
Click to expand...

Someone else said they are feeding 90 grams in three lots. It's 35% fat and 18% sodium of my memory serves me right (it's on their site). The ingredient list also states monoglycerides, but when I looked that up I found its an emulsifier used to bind oil and water into a solid. So I reckon if you feed about 50g of margarine mixed thoroughly with 50g of bicarbonate of soda, available in 25kg sacks from eBay, that would mimic equishure. I think I'd mix it and leave it overnight.

If I was using equishure now, I'd try replacing one dose at a time and see what happens.
 
NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far.

CPT - thanks for that, I will give it a go. I wonder if I should have a bash with it before my next tub of egusin arrives? Won't get here till the 3rd and mare was vile today. Tried to simultaneously bite and kick whilst putting her saddle on, but fine to girth. Then in school was grinding to a halt, threatening all sorts of naughtiness and wanted me off after approximately 5 mins. Was a much nicer girl on the egusin but finished 21 day course 4 days ago.
 
cptrayes said:
Someone else said they are feeding 90 grams in three lots. It's 35% fat and 18% sodium of my memory serves me right (it's on their site). The ingredient list also states monoglycerides, but when I looked that up I found its an emulsifier used to bind oil and water into a solid. So I reckon if you feed about 50g of margarine mixed thoroughly with 50g of bicarbonate of soda, available in 25kg sacks from eBay, that would mimic equishure. I think I'd mix it and leave it overnight.

If I was using equishure now, I'd try replacing one dose at a time and see what happens.
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If using margerine - really read the ingredients carefully as many have some form of dairy product in them - I was really surprised at this' when searching for Dairy free for baking for my friends little girl who is totally dairy free.
 
plum duff said:
Have a look at this thread it compares rite trac which used to be neigh-lox and other supplements http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...n-Rite-Trac-(used-to-be-quot-Neigh-lox-quot-).
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That thread illustrates how much this is trial and error and how every horse is individual. There are some posts on there about how effective Settlex is, whereas mine was on a big dose of Settlex as a preventative when I changed to the new season haylage, gradually over a week, and it didn't prevent anything!

It seems that there are only good reports of equishure, rite-Trac and egusin, so if he does not settle with the change to alfalfa and no beet, I will probably test margarine/bicarb and then one of the others if that does not work.
 
Tnavas said:
If using margerine - really read the ingredients carefully as many have some form of dairy product in them - I was really surprised at this' when searching for Dairy free for baking for my friends little girl who is totally dairy free.
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Ooh, thanks for that. It never occurred to me.
 
springtime1331 said:
NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far.

CPT - thanks for that, I will give it a go. I wonder if I should have a bash with it before my next tub of egusin arrives? Won't get here till the 3rd and mare was vile today. Tried to simultaneously bite and kick whilst putting her saddle on, but fine to girth. Then in school was grinding to a halt, threatening all sorts of naughtiness and wanted me off after approximately 5 mins. Was a much nicer girl on the egusin but finished 21 day course 4 days ago.
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Mine is a saint compared to that :) He just does a go slow and kicks out if you put your leg on. And he looks for things to spook at.

I'd try it, why not, Tesco have both ingredients, open tomorrow. You'll be mighty cross if it works and then a very expensive but now unnecessary supplement is delivered, though!!
 
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I am feeding 90g of equishure however I feed predominently hay (with grass in the day time but the grass is limited as by the time they have come in, been groomed, ridden for a couple of hours it takes a fair amount out of their grass time) ) If I was feeding haylege I suspect I would need more than 90g. I fed marksway hh a couple of years ago to a couple of horses for a very short time and it affected the hind gut adversly compared to hay.

In view of the cost I did consider mixing my own "equishure" but then decided it would probably be inconclusive. It may work but if it didn't I would be no further forward as I still would not know if that resolved my problem.

Once it worked there was no going back and I wouldn't replace it, maybe see if it could be reduced slightly, but the benefits have been too great.

BTW I have found that all bicarb is not created equal. I ran out of bicarb and it was on back order. I ordered a kg from somewhere else. It was clear from the horse that it was of lesser quality. A cheap sack of bicarb on e bay would be a non starter for mine.
 
nikkimariet said:
Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes ;)

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.
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Yup that's what I meant .
Thanks
 
paddy555 said:
I am feeding 90g of equishure however I feed predominently hay (with grass in the day time but the grass is limited as by the time they have come in, been groomed, ridden for a couple of hours it takes a fair amount out of their grass time) ) If I was feeding haylege I suspect I would need more than 90g. I fed marksway hh a couple of years ago to a couple of horses for a very short time and it affected the hind gut adversly compared to hay.

In view of the cost I did consider mixing my own "equishure" but then decided it would probably be inconclusive. It may work but if it didn't I would be no further forward as I still would not know if that resolved my problem.

Once it worked there was no going back and I wouldn't replace it, maybe see if it could be reduced slightly, but the benefits have been too great.

BTW I have found that all bicarb is not created equal. I ran out of bicarb and it was on back order. I ordered a kg from somewhere else. It was clear from the horse that it was of lesser quality. A cheap sack of bicarb on e bay would be a non starter for mine.
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I know in my heart that he would be better off on hay, but it would be so difficult to manage compared to wrapped haylage :( The current batch of haylage (a year's supply from my normal supplier) smells acidic when I open it.

Some bicarb isn't food grade and I would not buy that, but there seem to be reputable suppliers of 100% sodium bicarbonate on eBay. I've bought ten kilos from one of them, and a 2kg tub of vegetable only 'spread' from Bookers and I am going to wean him slowly off Omeprazole to prevent acid bounceback and onto that and see what happens.

At £1 a kilo, I can whack the dose up to whatever he will eat :)



Thanks to everyone who pointed out the stuff about long term Omeprazole use. It is anecdotal at the moment, but that doesn't make it untrue. And in any case I would prefer a drug free horse, of course.
 
Have you considered feeding any clays such as montmorillonite? (sp?!) I've just seen some impressive results from an emergency diarrhea dose of 97g twice a day. Daily use would be much less that this though or you would probably end up with an impaction! The stuff I got from my vet was called Bio-Sponge but at £60 (no that isn't a typo!!) a day I'm looking into an alternative!!!!
 
Goldenstar said:
Have you tried hyperdrug for bicarb ?
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this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer.

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet, etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot".
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes. Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.
 
springtime1331 said:
NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far.
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CS gets 135g approx a day, split over 3 feeds.

We basically dropped it down as far as we could with him remaining comfortable. Any lower than that and he gets grumpy and sod-like lol.

We stuck with the SLH.

Goldenstar said:
Yup that's what I meant .
Thanks
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I wasn't picking on your spelling - just didn't know if we were talking about same thing :) (my spelling is horrendous!)
 
cptrayes said:
I know in my heart that he would be better off on hay, but it would be so difficult to manage compared to wrapped haylage :( .
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How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?
 
Tiddlypom said:
How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?
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When desperate for storage I mad a shed with old pallets and tarpaulins.

Use two layers of pallets as a floor, with a tarpaulin secured between them, keeps out rising damp and vermin (to a reasonable degree) then bolt the next lot to them as sides then attach the plastic tarpaulins, sealing the seams with duct tape - secure the tarpaulins to the
pallets using a strip of wood to reduce the chance of ripping. For the door hang two or more tarpaulins that overlap to help waterproof.

Once the hay is inside the whole thing is quite stable.

If you can't build the above stack the hay and cover with tarpaulins weighting it down with old plastic milk containers filled with water. Friends of mine used to store all their hay like this - they used layers of straw as a base to protect the bottom bales.
 
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