Hip Displaysia

[Ditchjumper2]

When I purchased my last 2 Schnauzers they had all the necessary health checks, were KC registered and were lovely dogs. I knew nothing however about inbreeding coefficients. When the old girl was getting old I looked for another puppy. I checked coefficients (wish I hadn't tbh) and purchased a lovely puppy. However, as she has grown she is more and more wonky. I now suspect her of having hip displaysia.

She is being spayed mid November and whilst under will have her hips xrayed at the same time. I have never had a dog with this, and am gutted as the intention was to do agility with her also. Can anyone give me any advice please? It is what it is, I did all the checks so I just need to deal with it. She is the happiest, loveliest girl ever and it seems so sad. I accept she won't be doing agility.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Make sure the vet is one who can position the dog correctly and knows what they are looking at/has experience of taking x-rays for scoring. What age is she? X-rays for scoring are usually taken after 12 months.

What were the scores like on her parents, grandparents etc?
If it is diagnosed I would curtail any jumping on and off sofa, up and down stairs, in and out of cars. Mats and rugs down on any slippery floor surfaces. Build muscle with exercises like swimming and sand work.

 

[Mynstrel]

A lot of years ago when I was getting into agility one of the top dogs in the country was found to have next to no hip joints when x-rayed for breeding (she didn't breed him). The owner mentioned retiring him and the vet said hell no, being so fit is what's keeping him together! so never say never. Probably not top level and not too much but if she's wonky but not in pain be guided by your dog, vet and physio.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

CC she will be 12 months old.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've known top show dogs and a dog who was on the podium at the world working championships with no hips or elbows. But just because the dog can, doesn't mean it should. The wear and tear shows a lot younger. There are other ground based sports and activities which a dog can do

 

[Ditchjumper2]

A lot of years ago when I was getting into agility one of the top dogs in the country was found to have next to no hip joints when x-rayed for breeding (she didn't breed him). The owner mentioned retiring him and the vet said hell no, being so fit is what's keeping him together! so never say never. Probably not top level and not too much but if she's wonky but not in pain be guided by your dog, vet and physio.

I have had horses with awful conformation that have always stayed sound so I get that. She isn't lame or in pain and is very jolly!

 

[splashgirl45]

Pretty girl

 

[Goldenstar]

We had one both parents tested good scores but our one had HD although she did need medication as she got older she lived to over sixteen and had a happy life .
We kept her slim monitored her exercise avoided ball throwers and thongs Like that .
I was gutted when we found out but she had a happy life .

 

[CorvusCorax]

That's why it's important to look back a couple of generations, it can skip.

OP, were you able to find out the scores of parents or grandparents? If the score is abnormally high on one side and low on another it tends to indicate accidental damage but the vet should be able to tell you that. Genetic dysplasia is usually more even.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

It sucks both that something seems to/might be wrong, and that you'll probably have to adjust your future plans accordingly, but she's still adorable, that haven't changed.
Until you find out exactly what the problem is, all you can do is focus on strengthening her muscles, keeping her slim, and if you don't already know how to do massage, and stretching, perhaps look into doing that. Once you know what the problem is, you will hopefully know whether acupuncture, Shiatsu for dogs/learning to do acupressure yourself, glucosamine supplements or something else will be relevant to try in her future.

About having looked up inbreeding coefficients, and such stuff, nothing is a guarantee. It can only minimise the risk for bad things occuring, not 100% prevent all bad crap from happening. It's a bit like how wearing a seatbelt, and driving safely increases the odds for you arriving home safely, but still doesn't guarantee that you can't encounter someone else driving like an idiot. On the other hand, the later doesn't make using seatbelts pointless.
At least you know that you tried your best to avoid this from happening to your little cutie. It's not much of a comfort, but better than knowing you didn't do anything.

 

[Bellasophia]

I see she is a mini schnauzer.Hip dysplasia is more often found in the standard schnauzer than a mini.
However ,there is a condition in the minis that resembles HD..
see this excerpt..

Myotonia Congenita ​

This inherited muscle disorder causes a Miniature Schnauzer’s muscle cells to be over-excited, leading to muscles that stay contracted after exercise. Without the ability to release their contracted muscles, over time, the dog tends to develop the following issues:

• A stiff or bunny hopping gait
• Bulging muscles that make it difficult to move properly
• A swelling tongue that makes swallowing a challenge
• Problems balancing, causing them to fall or stumble

Although there is no cure, a healthy diet and medication can go a long way to help treat the issue. However, dogs that do have it won’t be able to exercise like a normal dog.

In 2002, the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine team“developed a molecular genetic test to detect the mutant skeletal muscle chloride channel (CIC-1) allele that causes myotonia congenita in Miniature Schnauzers and to analyze the relationship of affected and carrier dogs.”

So, if you haven’t yet purchased a Mini, you can ask the breeder to conduct this simple DNA test to see whether or not myotonia is present. Also, it’s wise to always request parental documentation to ensure that they don’t carry the disease either.

Bearing this possibility in mind,I would also do a simple test to exclude this.

AKC Canine Health Foundation | Myotonia Congenita in Miniature Schnauzers

www.akcchf.org

good luck with her…this is a wonderful breed( I‘m on my second.)

 

[Ditchjumper2]

That's why it's important to look back a couple of generations, it can skip.

OP, were you able to find out the scores of parents or grandparents? If the score is abnormally high on one side and low on another it tends to indicate accidental damage but the vet should be able to tell you that. Genetic dysplasia is usually more even.

No I haven't checked as yet.

Bellasophia that's interesting! She only displays signs when she had been running about on the beach which she loves. She gets that rolling sway and becomes disunited. She paces then. It's equally hard stopping her jumping on furniture they both like to look out of the window. She is my third I love them too

 

[splashgirl45]

Perhaps get some steps so she doesn’t jump on and off the sofa , you would have to train her to use them otherwise she is likely to continue jumping on and off

 

[skinnydipper]

If she does have hip dysplasia there are exercises she can do to help build and maintain supporting muscles.


Regular hydrotherapy. The physio recommended underwater treadmill. Extension of joints is greater in treadmill than swimming and they use their hind limbs more, swimming is primarily fore limbs.

Stepping over cavaletti poles to get her to lift her hind limbs. 6 poles, shoulder height apart, poles wrist height.

Down to stand. Sit to stand.

Ramp or lift in and out of vehicle.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

Skinnydipper.....I lift her in and out of cars and off sofa etc. The cavelitti I can do easy enough too as have poles plus your other suggestion. I need to investigate the hydrotherapy!

 

[Clodagh]

Bellasophia’s suggestion sounds worth investigating if the x rays do t show it? I’m not sure what would be the best outcome for you and her. Either way it should be manageable. Good luck.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I wouldn't panic until you have had x rays, hopefully your vet is experienced in both positioning and reading plates. I have had a GSD with atrocious hips (scored in the 90s when x rayed at 6 years old), and lived until she was 13 never having a days lameness.
If your little one does have signs of hd then don't despair, physio and hydro will help . If she is insured you should be able to get it paid for, my little heeler still has physio every 6 weeks after surgery 2 years ago and the insurance still pays for it .

 

[Ditchjumper2]

Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am trying to keep positive but was gutted. My dog vet specialises in surgery and knows his stuff. I do tend, with horses and dogs, to have a pragmatic approach. Sometimes just because you can doesn't mean you should. I would never put a horse of mine through colic surgery for example. I will do what is best for her though. We will see what happens once she is xrayed.

 

[Bellasophia]

From what I can see online ,the myotonia test costs 42 pounds..you can do this test at home with the kit they send you.
you swab the mouth with the swab stick they send you…return it by post to the lab,in the sealed bag they provide..and you get the results sent to you.

Foresight Health® Myotonia Congenita

Our Foresight Health® single test for Myotonia Congenita is ideal for breeders and owners who want the reassurance of genetic health testing.

www.petgeneticslab.co.uk

I would do the test first before you go more more expensive investigation,including x rays etc..

if it is this condition,there will be no surgery..the treatment is lifelong management of the dog.( diet ,specific excercise management and medication as advised by the vet)

note…another thought is if you start to excercise to build muscle,and it is not dysplasia,but is actually the above condition,you will only worsen the condition.
Another reason to rest for this asap.

 

[skinnydipper]

note…another thought is if you start to excercise to build muscle,and it is not dysplasia,but is actually the above condition,you will only worsen the condition.
Another reason to rest for this asap.

Can you share the link for that information, please.


From what I have read this morning there is increased muscle stiffness from inactivity. Muscle stiffness can improve with exercise.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am trying to keep positive but was gutted. My dog vet specialises in surgery and knows his stuff. I do tend, with horses and dogs, to have a pragmatic approach. Sometimes just because you can doesn't mean you should. I would never put a horse of mine through colic surgery for example. I will do what is best for her though. We will see what happens once she is xrayed.

Not strange at all that you felt gutted. It sucks that it happened to your dog, and it sucks being in the situation where it's like your body are gearing up to do battle, but then you're put on hold because you don't yet have the info about why, where, or how.

I was going to post a link to another company in UK that offers Myotonia Congenita/CLCN1 gene tests, but I think LABOLINK's test is a few pounds more expensive than the test @Bellasophia have already posted a link to.

I don't know how long it takes to get an answer to one of those DNA tests, or if it's worth trying to get an answer to that before doing X-rays, but if it is Myotonia Congenita, there's apparently medications available that you can try giving her that often helps.
According to the google results I was able to find, it is if someone have Myotonic Dystrophy, that it's good to try to build more muscles, not Myotonia Congenita. Though on the Paw Print Gentics info page (a company in USA which also offers Myotonia Congenita/CLCN1 gene test), it says:
"Episodes do not appear to be painful and the muscle stiffness may improve with increased exercise. Episodes can worsen with cold and excitement."

But increased exercise could just as well imply building up endurance in the muscles, as building up muscle mass. If it is MC, causing her muscles to have problems relaxing, it sounds sensible to me that the more muscle mass to relax, the more difficult it gets.
For the time being, perhaps it's safest to try to just maintain her muscles as they are. Except perhaps looking into giving her massage and stretching as I've already suggested, that might help her muscles relax.

Anyhow, in case it isn't MC, without still is HD, or some other skeletal problem, I assume that you would not think that your veterinarian is good at his job, if he was the type to just gung ho recommend surgery at any opportunity he gets, only because he specialises in it. So hypothetically, if he does end up recommending surgery as an option, he would only do it because he really think it's a good option to help your girl.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

@FinnishLapphund thankyou and yes I trust him implicitly. It was more a generalised comment in that some people put animals through excessive procedures for the owners benefits rather than their animals. Sometimes one has to take an overall view that is what I meant. As far as Dazzle is concerned she will get whatever treatment is best for her. I really do appreciate everyone's advice. You can Google all you like but real life people's experience is much more valued.

 

[Bellasophia]

Can you share the link for that information, please.


From what I have read this morning there is increased muscle stiffness from inactivity. Muscle stiffness can improve with exercise.

I think you’ve misunderstood me…if the dog has myotonia congenita ,increased excercise is not recommended. As described above..limited excercise will be the norm if it is myotonia congenita.
Given this dog is a mini schnauzer,it seems more likely to be this condition ( listed as one to test for in mini schnauzers,before breeding them)
if it is the hips then as people have mentioned excercise will help develop muscle to stabilize the area…but before the poster does this she needs to be sure what condition the dog has.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think you’ve misunderstood me…if the dog has myotonia,increased excercise is not recommended. As described above..limited excercise will be the norm if it is myotonia,

Could you share the link, please?

 

[Bellasophia]

Until the poster has seen the vet and had tests done my suggestion was based on my knowledge of the breed andd there are many links describing this condition..
here is one..

Myotonia Congenita (Discovered in the Miniature Schnauzer)

Myotonia congenita is a muscle disorder that affects dogs from birth, causing stiff movement and delayed relaxation of muscles after exercise.

www.wisdompanel.com

most similar linksdescribe the following.. quote from above

“””For Veterinarians​

Here’s what a vet needs to know about Myotonia Congenita​

The clinical signs of Myotonia congenita can be seen in puppies only a few weeks old. Affected dogs suffer from muscle hypertrophy with stiff movements. There may be difficulties rising after rest or in attempting rapid changes in posture. Affected dog may also display a "bunny-hopping" gait. Additional clinical signs include superior prognathism (protrusion of one or both jaws), ptyalism (excessive flow of saliva), dental abnormalities, and increased respiratory sounds during exercise. The tongue of affected dogs is enlarged and stiffens when touched.
Affected dogs may need assistance after rest or during muscle cramping to allow them to get to their feet and move normally. Some assistance may also be needed for everyday tasks such as stair climbing.””

if it is this condition I doubt the same excercise regime would be applied to a dog suffering from cramping muscles and needing rest periods to recover,as you would give a dysplasia dog who needs a regime to build up muscles to support the joints.

 

[skinnydipper]

if you start to excercise to build muscle,and it is not dysplasia,but is actually the above condition,you will only worsen the condition.

Can you share the link to the information which supports this. Thank you.

Everything I have read today contradicts that statement.

 

[Bellasophia]

Skinny.D.
Here you go…lots of links here.

Long-term outcome of myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism in 2 dogs

Two dogs were diagnosed with myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism and treated with trilostane. One dog showed temporary improvement, but the other dog showed no improvement. The dogs survived 2383 and 1902 days, respectively. Findings suggest ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

not one mentions increasing excercise..all suggest drugs to relax the cramping muscles are the suggested treatments.

In the meantime,let’s hope the dog has something entirely curable and her vet gets answers.

 

[skinnydipper]

Skinny.D.
Here you go…lots of links here.

Long-term outcome of myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism in 2 dogs

Two dogs were diagnosed with myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism and treated with trilostane. One dog showed temporary improvement, but the other dog showed no improvement. The dogs survived 2383 and 1902 days, respectively. Findings suggest ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Different diagnosis - myotonia associated with Cushings.

Nothing I have read supports your statement that exercising to build muscle will worsen the condition (myotonia congenita)

 

[Bellasophia]

Long-term outcome of myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism in 2 dogs

Two dogs were diagnosed with myotonia associated with hyperadrenocorticism and treated with trilostane. One dog showed temporary improvement, but the other dog showed no improvement. The dogs survived 2383 and 1902 days, respectively. Findings suggest ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

it was the second link with the articles I was referring to..as in “lots of links”
it is in pale type at the bottom of the quoted page..nbci articles..
click on link and go to references..lots of links.

I was clear in my previous post…your insistence is bordering on stalking.

 

[skinnydipper]

I was clear in my previous post…your insistence is bordering on stalking.

You have form for posting misinformation, insisting you are right and not apologising when you are proved wrong.

Stalking, that's rich coming from you.