Hmm, a leg yield question/musing... Any ideas?

[Maia]

An exercise I've been told to do in lessons and recommended on countless occasions to help supple and engage any horse is leg yielding on a circle - yielding in to make the circle smaller, then back out again.

This is an exercise, even under instruction, I have always found very difficult/experienced resistance with/just not got!

Current homework is lots of LY, including the above exercise.

Now here's the problem:
With current horse we can LY on the straight, through the turns and out of a circle (I.e. going from 10m to 20m) but LY in is just not happening and poor lad is just saying "no, can't, don't get it". This is on either rein.

Soo I've say down, thought a lot about what's going on and why isn't not happening and then realised...

Surely we are not LY in but infact asking for half pass on an ever decreasing circle? No wonder we are coming up against a wall as neither has he been taught this nor is he ready for it!

Question is, am I right or am I missing something?

Penny for your thoughts

 

[Santa_Claus]

With the circle leg yielding exercise I have never leg yielding in as to do so you will also need to ask for outside bend because as you say if you maintain the inside bend you will infact be asking for half pass.

You can leg yield in as said with outside bend but I tend not to as the exercise would often be used with a younger less balanced horse so outside bend and leg yield moving on to a 10m circle is a big ask therefore far more sensible to spiral in and then leg yielded out.

 

[Booboos]

I've never heard of a leg yielding in to make a circle smaller...which I suppose doesn't in itself mean much, but logically it would not be a leg yield it would be quite a difficult half pass.

 

[Maia]

See I have always, always, always been taught LY in then LY out, maintaining the bend... Because the 'in' comes first I have always found this really difficult, as have the horses, as that is the bit that is hard!

I am cross with myself for not thinking about it before though, particularly with current lad who initially I thought was just being a sod, then I realised it was a cant/don't get it response.

Well we learn I suppose but I am surprised that right from pony club days, through to baby horses/exracehorses, and some otherwise great instructors, this is what I've been taught to do ... No wonder I've never got it right *hangs head in shame*

 

[Goldenstar]

Think of it as spirling in and leg yielding out when you are 'in ' LY out as slowly as possible say three steps LY then ride the line of the slightly bigger circle then a few more steps LYthen the line new bigger circle them a few more steps this way you learn to be in control of the LYand soon as you feel it going astray you ride the line of the circle you are on sort out and start the LY again.

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

I like this exercise as i've found it can help with horses balance and get them working through both sides. I'd start with a spiral in and leg yeild out, but then introduce a counter bend on the 20 meter circle before spiraling then once they stop resisting the counter bend, let them straight and spiral. Eventual works into the leg yeild in then out with no resistance and a horse who won't fall out on the outwards leg yeild as you have the outside shoulder. Not sure if that actually made any sense anywhere but in my head lol.

 

[GinaGeo]

I've always ridden it as a spiral in and then leg yield out. If I want to leg yield in, for example if horse is escaping through the outside shoulder slightly, then I'll do it on outside bend.

 

[nieghham]

The bends of the leg yield and half pass are differnet.

half pass is not as easy but can be done.

it is with the riders connection over the back and the weight drop applications that often take the spiralling exersice out of whack

Some riders do not realize that the seat bone placement has shifted often dropping the hip opposite of the direction taken and lifting the other too far out of the saddle disrupting the actual leg application placement vrs applicated aid confusing the horse as to the actual movement the rider is asking for.

it is with this displacement that riders often go from the leg yield to a half pass type of ride or having the horse straighten out in the spiral too much, the hind or front end drifts or leads instead of being even in the movement, this often takes the connection out of the riders seat placing it all into the hands disrupting the longitudinal suppleness that is needed to support any lateral work in circles. The riders seat bone displacement affects the hips which often affect the cores...since it is through the core HH that one regulates the rythym/forward so the hand HH can balance/soften'n'round and keep the tempo beat the horse often loses balance taking the tempo out....rythym may or may not be affected depending on the horses topline strenght/training/rider influence

The spiral is not just for the horse but to also train the rider how to engage the drop aids correctly as well as being able to indentify the application sites vrs practical application while developing a feel for the differences between rythym and tempo development.
The rider learns to control their angles while developing their own core and back muscle memory developement ...seat vrs back vrs hand activation....troubleshooting/ect.
It is during these lateral exerscies that rider errors generally show through and the effect on the horse is often seen through the lack of selfcarraige and hoof fall placement.

I make sure all students work on themself and the horse since it is here the coach establishes the foundation for both horse and rider

 

[Tonks]

it is with the riders connection over the back and the weight drop applications that often take the spiralling exersice out of whack. Some riders do not realize that the seat bone placement has shifted often dropping the hip opposite of the direction taken and lifting the other too far out of the saddle disrupting the actual leg application placement vrs applicated aid confusing the horse as to the actual movement the rider is asking for.
it is with this displacement that riders often go from the leg yield to a half pass type of ride or having the horse straighten out in the spiral too much, the hind or front end drifts or leads instead of being even in the movement, this often takes the connection out of the riders seat placing it all into the hands disrupting the longitudinal suppleness that is needed to support any lateral work in circles. The riders seat bone displacement affects the hips which often affect the cores...since it is through the core HH that one regulates the rythym/forward so the hand HH can balance/soften'n'round and keep the tempo beat the horse often loses balance taking the tempo out....rythym may or may not be affected depending on the horses topline strenght/training/rider influence
The spiral is not just for the horse but to also train the rider how to engage the drop aids correctly as well as being able to indentify the application sites vrs practical application while developing a feel for the differences between rythym and tempo development. The rider learns to control their angles while developing their own core and back muscle memory developement ...seat vrs back vrs hand activation....
troubleshooting/ect. It is during these lateral exerscies that rider errors generally show through and the effect on the horse is often seen through the lack of selfcarraige and hoof fall placement. I make sure all students work on themself and the horse since it is here the coach establishes the foundation for both horse and rider

Yes, I agree with some of this. However, your horse has to learn the cues to 'stop' with the rein aids first. It is then when we put a change in the seat posture before the rein aid to stop that the horse then learns to make an association and understands what the weight aids/seat postural changes mean. The seat aids taught alone without the use of rein aids being understood first produce very variable behavioural responses, some of which are not 'stop'.

As such, if your horse has some confusion regarding what pressure in the mouth means, or the rider has not introduced the change in seat posture before the rein pressure applicaiton, this will produce confusion in the horse and you may get some undesired repsonses such, as loss of line, resistence, etc.

In its' most basic form the neutral leg position asks for 'go', the leg aid applied further behind the girth asks for a yeilding of the quaters - but only if properly taught and then undestood by the horse. Simultenous pull back of the reins is what we use to motivate the stop and the release rewards this behvaiours once stopping has been performed. The reins (both direct and indirect) then control the shoulders which ultimately control straightness.

Technically as the legs control both 'go' and 'yeilding' of the quarters and the hands control the 'stop' and the 'turn' repsonse (control over shoulders) and that this is what the horse is trained to understand first, it is more likely that there is a fault with either 'go' 'yield' 'stop' and 'go' before there is a problem with the seat. The aid/cue that provokes the most amount of behaviour change in the horse is the rein aid or the stop aid. They are more motivated to eliminate this pressure than any other.

Therefore, one must look at leg and rein pressure from the rider and how the horse understands these pressure before looking at anything else. Again, rhythym is first trained through the stop/slow aids from the reins and not the seat. The seat aids are very useful in maintaining rythym but this tends to be used by more experienced riders who have a balanced seat. At such, it is these riders who tend not to have a problem with their weight aids in this type of exercise, so as an instructur one would first suspect incorrect application of the rein/leg aids when this exercise goes wrong.

I would first suspect that the rider has a problem with co-ordinating these aids simultaneously (stop/slow/turn/yeild, etc) and would worry about their seat or weight distribution once they have improved thier co-ordination. Indeed, it is very difficult to keep your seat stable if your left hand is consistenly pulling back more than the right. This is because the 'brain' needs time to change its proprioceptors to reorganise the body. Yes, core is crucial but it only form part of a whole.

I would agree with your last statement. However, if one breaks down leg yeilding on a circle/spiraling in, one should break down the components.

1. A yielding of the quarters away from leg cues.
2. A turn of the shoulders to follow the arc of the circle. (this is cued by the direct and indirect reins which asks for the turn response.)
3. A direct rein aid which cues a slight lateral neck bend INTO the direction of movement. Technically LY asks for a lateral neck bend AWAY from the direction of movement.

Any lateral work that ask for a bend into the direction of travel/movement is much more difficult for the horse.

 

[nieghham]

Tonk our training methods are a little different.

I do not use the rein for stop...I use the core HH from the very beginning...I train off the seat aids from day one...again to me the seat aids are not the same as activating the seat bone or drop aids.

Cores are my engine for go as well as downward transitions supported by the aids as needed...it is through the cores I develop ryrthym and tempo I will control with the hand HH (inside leg to outside hand) and I do this through forward riding of the transitions with correctly timed aids to the foot fall for the best influence over the horse.....to me speed has little to do with hh as much as it comes to the correct timing and execution of the aid

By the time I am doing a spiral exercise the balancing/rounding outside hand rein contact is a consistant....the horse is over in the connection with longitudinal suppleness developed to support the lateral movement being asked.

The drop aids are engaged and the application vrs activation site are clean and separated so the rider can be spine over spine yet still light and independant in the seat activation and hip angle placement/enagement....I have been trained to do this through the core...all horses are trained this way with future upper level movments in mind

In my training...the core has alot to do with it...the seat is an encompassing aid that can include the seat bones acting together/individually ...with or without the support of the back...as a drop aid or simple activation aid with or without the hand but it is fueled by the core

 

[Goldenstar]

The two posts above show why this is such a good exercise because however you are trained it is for the rider an exercise that checks how well you can coordinate and regulate the aids to perform the exercise well.

 

[Tonks]

Tonk our training methods are a little different.

I do not use the rein for stop...I use the core HH from the very beginning...I train off the seat aids from day one...again to me the seat aids are not the same as activating the seat bone or drop aids.

Cores are my engine for go as well as downward transitions supported by the aids as needed...it is through the cores I develop ryrthym and tempo I will control with the hand HH (inside leg to outside hand) and I do this through forward riding of the transitions with correctly timed aids to the foot fall for the best influence over the horse.....to me speed has little to do with hh as much as it comes to the correct timing and execution of the aid

By the time I am doing a spiral exercise the balancing/rounding outside hand rein contact is a consistant....the horse is over in the connection with longitudinal suppleness developed to support the lateral movement being asked.

The drop aids are engaged and the application vrs activation site are clean and separated so the rider can be spine over spine yet still light and independant in the seat activation and hip angle placement/enagement....I have been trained to do this through the core...all horses are trained this way with future upper level movments in mind

In my training...the core has alot to do with it...the seat is an encompassing aid that can include the seat bones acting together/individually ...with or without the support of the back...as a drop aid or simple activation aid with or without the hand but it is fueled by the core

Firstly, I don't follow a 'method' I use equitation science. These are scientific principles regading what we know about equine behaviour and how they learn given their cognitive abilities/limiations.

Are you telling me that you don't use a bridle, bit and reins at all? You ride your horses only with a saddle or bareback with your hands behind your back? You don't use any pressure in the head/mouth region?

I doubt it. I think you are not aware of how you have incorporated the use of 'negative reinforcement' (a form of conditioning) through the use of the bridle, bit and reins and how this interplays with secondary reinforcers and classical conditioning. Conditioning cannot be avoided and is found to occur in pretty much all species. If you use any type of pressure and release you are using negative reinforcement.

My guess is that you're not aware of how negative reinforcement and classical conditioning play a role when using the 'seat'.

 

[nieghham]

Firstly, I don't follow a 'method' I use equitation science. These are scientific principles regading what we know about equine behaviour and how they learn given their cognitive abilities/limiations.


All top riders who have competed on the FEI/Olympic level have allimmersed themself in a methind...it is through this consistancy that their training progresses. Most if not all top Dressage riders train within that system under on coach...all these methods are based on equitation science and behaviour with the scales loosely dictating the step of progress used


Are you telling me that you don't use a bridle, bit and reins at all? You ride your horses only with a saddle or bareback with your hands behind your back? You don't use any pressure in the head/mouth region?

Of course not....but the rein is supporter...the connections are developed through the cores/back/seat of the rider

I doubt it. I think you are not aware of how you have incorporated the use of 'negative reinforcement' (a form of conditioning) through the use of the bridle, bit and reins and how this interplays with secondary reinforcers and classical conditioning. Conditioning cannot be avoided and is found to occur in pretty much all species. If you use any type of pressure and release you are using negative reinforcement.

I use pressure and release as is done in all riding through HH and rider alignment manipulation and control of all angles

My guess is that you're not aware of how negative reinforcement and classical conditioning play a role when using the 'seat'.

This is a discussion that is much like which is better the French Masters or German...who is better Phillips Karl or Inga Klimke or Udo/Uno...it all comes down to training and yes mine is in the true classical master and what one has found success with and that the horse is happy and content to work within as well

 

[Tonks]

I do not agree with you that all methods are based on equitation science and there are many practices out there, both from professionals and amateurs that are definitely not consistent with what we have learnt from science.

However, as far as I'm aware Yogi Bresner and Kyra Kyrklund are advocates. I'm guessing that someone like Anky does not use what we have learnt from equitation science. In fact, there is a whole debate in competitive dressage regarding welfare - as such, those in the feild of equitation science would agrue there needs to be an increased awareness of scientific understanding in equtation. Yes, the great masters have a lot to teach us and in fact often their methods are often supported by science.

"Of course not....but the rein is supporter...the connections are developed through the cores/back/seat of the rider"

I don't really understand what these means for the actual practical application of the aids. What does connections are developed through the core (s?) back, seat, etc. This does not tell me anything about what you do on board or how you train the horse to respond to the seat.

That is because we train it first using negative reinforcement. Once the horse understands that pull on the reins means stop we then alter our seat posture prior to this [use of negative reinforcement - pull on the reins]. Yes, there does appear to be some 'natural' reponse to change in seat posture that the horse will respond to but something as overt as a downward transition has to be trained.

"Rider alignment manipulation" - Sorry but I can feel myself getting a bit cross here....what does that mean for a rider sat on a horse???? It tells me nothing. It's simply not clear and if you were my instructur and said that to me - I would want a clear definition plus demonstration.

 

[Tonks]

Right, I will try to explain why so many of the great masters state that the seat aid should be given prior to the rein aid, as others have described when they have talked about the half halt etc.

Pulling on the reins is very easily trained to give you the wanted behaviour from the horse, ie, the 'stop'. Althought babies may give you some weird responsed most horses quicky learn that this is what the rider wants. This is because they are by nature, extremely motivated to remove this adversive stimuli (ie, the pressure from the bit in the mouth.)

Therefore, if we pair this consistent reponse (stop) with a seat aid we are able to teach the horse in a way which is easy for it to understand. It simply makes a connection between what goes before (change in seat posture) and what follows (rein aid to stop.) The horse begins to then repond with a stop from the seat aid alone.

If the seat aid comes after - learning is hap hazard.

The reason why it is more difficult to attempt to 'use' the seat without pairing it with the rein aid is simply because a change in seat posture does not signify to the horse that you mean stop.

If you got on a youngster and started to change your seat (without the use of the rein aids) I bet you would not get 'stop' everytime - you'd get speeding up and so on. This is because the horse, by nature, is simply not programmed to 'stop' from a change in seat posture.

They are however, programmed by nature to avoid the discomfort of a pull of the reins. Therefore, this is why it is so uesul to use this natural phenomenon with a pairing of a change in seat posture to produce the desired response.

Now, you can train a horse using seat before rein - but you would perhaps inadvertinently reinforce or train other behaviours.

 

[nieghham]

I do not agree with you that all methods are based on equitation science and there are many practices out there, both from professionals and amateurs that are definitely not consistent with what we have learnt from science.

But tome...what you nare describing are coaches who do not bother themselves learning any theory and just winging it...that is not a reflection on a system or method but their own teaching methods themself

However, as far as I'm aware Yogi Bresner and Kyra Kyrklund are advocates. I'm guessing that someone like Anky does not use what we have learnt from equitation science. In fact, there is a whole debate in competitive dressage regarding welfare - as such, those in the feild of equitation science would agrue there needs to be an increased awareness of scientific understanding in equtation. Yes, the great masters have a lot to teach us and in fact often their methods are often supported by science.

Anky as a human being is really alovely person you know...but that does not mean her riding style and rolkur are accepted or are not the bain of the Dressage world...even "riding deep" was not something the Dressage masters I used trained.....that came about in the 90's though rolkur has been around muchmuch longer...that is not a method but a system

"Of course not....but the rein is supporter...the connections are developed through the cores/back/seat of the rider"

I don't really understand what these means for the actual practical application of the aids. What does connections are developed through the core (s?) back, seat, etc. This does not tell me anything about what you do on board or how you train the horse to respond to the seat.

again...that wouldtake a book to explain...practical application is teh exectuion of the aids....again...aids can be used independantly...as a team...as a group and are interchangable....practiacl application is the word used to describe the engagement of aids without having to go into minute detail a sto which aids are being used if the term is a general one

That is because we train it first using negative reinforcement. Once the horse understands that pull on the reins means stop we then alter our seat posture prior to this [use of negative reinforcement - pull on the reins]. Yes, there does appear to be some 'natural' reponse to change in seat posture that the horse will respond to but something as overt as a downward transition has to be trained.

again...we have different training is all...my is true classical Dressage training using pressure/release as the supporting aid to the core which also works off the pressure/release by activating/directing the breath in the diaphram....even the closing of the thigh is a pressure/release...the activation of the left muscle along the spine by contracting and relaxation (just one of many ways to use engagement of the back) is pressure/release...the closing and opening of the shoulder blade is pressure/release as is any bending and relaxation of the angles

"Rider alignment manipulation" - Sorry but I can feel myself getting a bit cross here....what does that mean for a rider sat on a horse???? It tells me nothing. It's simply not clear and if you were my instructur and said that to me - I would want a clear definition plus demonstration.

And in a lesson you would havealready understood what this meant...you would have been trained to activate each muscleasan independant thorugh contraction/relaxation/kinetic weight placment/angle adjustment.

I really did not know that to participate in these thread it was a rule that onemust be a coach at all times and teach....that is not the purpose of me being here...for discussion on differences of ideology....training differences....even just the differences the two countrues had

I am not here to step on toes...to overtake a board...to be all that and a bag fo potato chips...just wanted tocome to a board that shared opinions/ideas...discussed differences

Now I know....sorry for not understanding....I read the rules of the forumb and may have missed this one.....no worries....there are other areas to play...if playing is not allowed at all...please let me know now...I will not be offended...every board has their own flavour and I may be the unintentional sour grape is all

 

[PapaFrita]

 

[mik]

so I need to wiggle my bottom, and support myself with the reins whilst riding spirals, dressed in blue, matching blue bandages etc and drooping acid through my core... Simples, then I get leg yield, with the wrong flexion, and that is half pass. Gosh Must tell Carl Hester, he is doing it wrong...

 

[kerilli]

Cores are my engine for go as well as downward transitions supported by the aids as needed...it is through the cores I develop ryrthym and tempo I will control with the hand HH (inside leg to outside hand) and I do this through forward riding of the transitions with correctly timed aids to the foot fall for the best influence over the horse.....to me speed has little to do with hh as much as it comes to the correct timing and execution of the aid

Please can you explain this, because in the U.K. we are taught that we have one 'core' (i.e. all the core muscles of the torso working together to make one stable core) so your plurals totally confuse me, in amongst all the other confusion!

 

[Goldenstar]

Naughty naughty hehe

 

[kerilli]

oh, and fwiw, in response to the OP's original question:
LY in and out on a circle is very common, and yes, you straighten after LY out, and then put the horse slightly into contrabend to ask for LY back in. Maybe you're asking for too much LY, I was taught to do say 18m to 20m and back to 18m again, at least at first. If horse is clueless I ask with slightly more contrabend a few times until it understands.
(Contrabending is very useful, also when going large. If overused it can put the horse on its shoulders a bit, BUT it is very helpful for teaching a youngish horse that it doesn't always have to follow its nose, that you are steering its BODY with your aids, which can be a bit of a revelation to them!)
Things to watch for: that you are slightly loading the seat bone you want the horse to step across towards. This is a major aid, subtle, and very useful. That you aren't twisting, or lifting the other seatbone. That you turn your shoulders very slightly in the direction of the way you want to go, and look that way, without tilting head (or maybe that's just me!)
Rein aids wise, obv swap inside and outside contacts, half-halts etc according to the new bend.

 

[Giggs]

Agree with Kerilli, completely confused by some of the rest of it........ Leg yielding in and out is a good exercise - as leg yielding is an "away" from the bend piece of lateral work, then the bend should be changed slightly (to the outside of the circle) in preparation to leg yield in. Its a great exercise for horses that tend to load their outside shoulder too much through a turn or fall out. I use it even more for riders who have the common problem of using too much inside rein (either to turn/create false outline) and therefore too much inside bend and a squint horse (loading outside shoulder too much). The changing of bend and leg yielding in is good for riders to become more aware of where the horses body is on the circle and improving their co-ordination and ability to be able to ride counter bend work in the future. I think things I'd check that may lead to problems (horse appearing stiff/resistant/unwilling to do the exercise) is that the rider has correctly positioned themselves for the leg yielding (e.g. if leg yielding in, their seat/legs/reins encourage bend to outside), or that they are crossing the inside rein over the neck (although when leg yielding in the inside rein is on the outside of circle if that makes sense?)...

 

[PapaFrita]

oh, and fwiw, in response to the OP's original question:
LY in and out on a circle is very common, and yes, you straighten after LY out, and then put the horse slightly into contrabend to ask for LY back in. Maybe you're asking for too much LY, I was taught to do say 18m to 20m and back to 18m again, at least at first. If horse is clueless I ask with slightly more contrabend a few times until it understands.
(Contrabending is very useful, also when going large. If overused it can put the horse on its shoulders a bit, BUT it is very helpful for teaching a youngish horse that it doesn't always have to follow its nose, that you are steering its BODY with your aids, which can be a bit of a revelation to them!)
Things to watch for: that you are slightly loading the seat bone you want the horse to step across towards. This is a major aid, subtle, and very useful. That you aren't twisting, or lifting the other seatbone. That you turn your shoulders very slightly in the direction of the way you want to go, and look that way, without tilting head (or maybe that's just me!)
Rein aids wise, obv swap inside and outside contacts, half-halts etc according to the new bend.

Now, THIS I understand.

 

[PapaFrita]

so I need to wiggle my bottom, and support myself with the reins whilst riding spirals, dressed in blue, matching blue bandages etc and drooping acid through my core... Simples, then I get leg yield, with the wrong flexion, and that is half pass. Gosh Must tell Carl Hester, he is doing it wrong...

More than one core. *tuts*

 

[Lolo]

I used to do the leg yielding in and out again with my horse. He used to curve himself in the opposite direction to where I was trying to make him go, and resist all attempts to rectify this (with the determination and skill that can only be acquired through 20 odd years of practice!).

It would only be for a few metres in, and then pushing him out again meant he HAD to drop back into the correct curve. It was a way of taking his way of controlling things and making it more my decision, and it really did help to get him working more correctly. It took a lot of effort to get him to actually leg yield in though, rather than to drag himself in using his shoulders and maintaining all resistance!

I don't know if that helps at all. And I'm a bit verbose, sorry!

 

[hadfos]

WOW....If I wasn't confused before I am now!!

 

[Goldenstar]

I have more than one core it's because I ate too much cake at Christmas .

 

[PapaFrita]

WOW....If I wasn't confused before I am now!!

I had to look LY and HP up to check if I'd not been doing them wrong for years...

 

[PapaFrita]

I have more than one core it's because I ate too much cake at Christmas .

LOL, I feel your pain

 

[hadfos]

I had to look LY and HP up to check if I'd not been doing them wrong for years...

Of course you have been I however do not know my left leg from my right so kinda fooooks me up in the 1st place HA x