Hmm, a leg yield question/musing... Any ideas?

[only_me]

Why...it is a horse who is evading and being schooled out of it...he is unfitt and being conditioned at the same time.

If a person chooses to judge the ride without understanding the mechanics vrs technical or without asking instead making an assumption of what they think is happening/do not understand/has missing information through vocal explaination that is their choice...I personally find any misconception can be clearedupby asking/talking/discussing what is happening and why teh rider is taking the route they have.....those who choose not to I leave alone and do not push any ofmy views/points/opinions on...those people who are rude when stating thier opinion...I also do not bother with either.

BTW...for those who have not read prior....I was/am still injured...that is not me on the horse...Oh....and the horse in the video...has year end standings both locally and internationally that says the training works even if one does not agree with what is going on in the video....so if someone "would never ride with me ever"...that is their choice and I respect that...I really doubt it will affect my business or reputation

Sorry just picked one to quote

I *think* I understand what you mean by cores - are you talking about the anterior, posterior and lateral slings?
These are the slings which involve the muscles you've mentioned above.

In the UK we talk about one core - diaphragm, trans ab, external obliques and pelvic floor but there are various ways of explaining how to engage them, and none of the images actually name the muscles as it is too confusing to normal folk

For those reading this and want to improve your core, try some local Pilates courses, learning about your core and how to activate it is much easier in real life

As for using your seat bones for drop aids etc. that's all very well in horses that you produce yourself, but what happens when you sell on and needs to be ridden by average riders

 

[cptrayes]

They are...I amgoing totry the share/copy/paste thing...if it does not work there are two videoson the thread I made....these videos show the good/bad/ugly of training the Dressage horse



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp8Rb49r5D0&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

^^This is my horse being very strong...forward is being controlledby the core HH so the reins are free for the balancing(outside) and flexing(inside)...you can see how forward and hard he is pulling on the bit by the "on the forehand" transition that happened at the last moment for a sec before the rider rebalances the longitudinal flexion...below we see the same discussion being done at the trot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TmZoh7iTeA&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

I do hope this one comes out...you see where Copper is crooked in the yield yet absolutely no bodymovment/hip drop/legmovemnt is seen from the rider...the correction is done through a slight drop aid in the lateral core to the seat bone

(hold on...this one is not copying...may have todo it in another post)

Here we see a loop being emplyed in the movement to soften the pollthrough longitudinal lmanipulation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFvMswQaxvg&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

Tempo training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9k3zRTY20s&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

I'm not sure what any of those videos are supposed to be illustrating? All I can see is four short examples of a tense horse being worked in too slow a rythmn that he is finding too difficult and is stifling any suspension he might have, by a rider who is far from the best rider I have ever seen.

If they were supposed to illustrate anything correct, I'm totally baffled

 

[Baggybreeches]

I'm not sure what any of those videos are supposed to be illustrating? All I can see is four short examples of a tense horse being worked in too slow a rythmn that he is finding too difficult and is stifling any suspension he might have, by a rider who is far from the best rider I have ever seen.

If they were supposed to illustrate anything correct, I'm totally baffled

NOOO noo no you are mistaken! As am I, we are wrong! Apparently.....

 

[Alaadin]

I'm not sure what any of those videos are supposed to be illustrating? All I can see is four short examples of a tense horse being worked in too slow a rythmn that he is finding too difficult and is stifling any suspension he might have, by a rider who is far from the best rider I have ever seen.

If they were supposed to illustrate anything correct, I'm totally baffled

This!

 

[crabbymare]

OP, you still with us ?
Has any of this helped ?

Probably helped them on their way to the funny farm and having read this thread I may well join them

 

[nieghham]

I'm not sure what any of those videos are supposed to be illustrating? All I can see is four short examples of a tense horse being worked in too slow a rythmn that he is finding too difficult and is stifling any suspension he might have, by a rider who is far from the best rider I have ever seen.

If they were supposed to illustrate anything correct, I'm totally baffled

No...that is not the point of those videos...in fact...the original purpose of those videos were for encouragement

See...several riders I knew/clients were having very discouraging times....we all have them as we move up....several were going to quit and felt uselss...been there myself several times over the years...they needed to see everyone ...every single rider/trainer can have that bad of a week nevermind a day no matter who they are or the level they rider

Copper is actually known for his temperment....his original breeder started this marketing line as he is a stallion who passed it one....everyone said I did not understand because I had the perfect horse and could ride and so actually could the person on top

I posted those videos to show that no...we all have our very horrid days and even teh best trained horse can be a trainwreck to ride

Now...why are they on youtube and not my computer and a disc and a spare disc....because the house fire showed me that that could be an effort in futility and the destruction of the disc that had all the other stuff in another location that got destryed showed me that several back up systems are needed

all I have left until next show season is what is left on youtube including the videos you saw that a friend gave me and what I have on my photobucket...and this will ensure I never lose them


Why is it posted here....as I told the person who wanted to view it to see the rider use the cores that this horse is actually trying to run through the rider (hence what you are all seeing and I have never denied) but you can not see her use the cores


What I am failing to understand is why anyone thought they would see different from what I said would be show....good....bad...ugly....I never said the end product was shown or perfection was reached...just that even when the horse is at the worse you do not see the riders core actually engage after being asked by another member to see it

are there certain members here you guys do not answer or are soft trolls you just ignore or something...did I do another goof in answering someone?

 

[kerilli]

are there certain members here you guys do not answer or are soft trolls you just ignore or something...did I do another goof in answering someone?

No, definitely not. We really a pretty friendly bunch 99.9% of the time, I promise! Trolls tend to get hounded out pretty quickly.
As said above, we do like to have some idea of who we're talking to and of what they have done.

 

[ihatework]

I'm starting to question my own understanding here!!

I really cannot see from those videos where the rider is using her 'cores'. Is this me being really dumb? All I'm seeing is a fairly average rider making the same mistake/errors that many other average riders (I include myself in that statement) make when things aren't going hunky dory with the horse - loss of balance and reliance on the rein.

Maybe I'm just pretty self aware of my own shortcomings and expect others to be the same?

 

[Turks]

Can I dip a toe in here and ask for some suggestions on this topic as to how I can release tension in my back that runs through to my shoulders blocking my hands. I have worked to still my hands and this can give trainers the impression that my hands are quite good but it belies a stiffness in my back and shoulders. Horses resist my hand and rightly so I'm afraid! I would love to ride by feel and instinct but mine's just plain wrong when it comes to this! I believe I need to use core muscles rather than bracing back. Doing it is another matter. Any suggestions / exercises much appreciated.

This minefield might not be the place for a newbie to venture but its very relevant so here goes... I would hold my breath but that's wrong too!

 

[ihatework]

Can I dip a toe in here and ask for some suggestions on this topic as to how I can release tension in my back that runs through to my shoulders blocking my hands. I have worked to still my hands and this can give trainers the impression that my hands are quite good but it belies a stiffness in my back and shoulders. Horses resist my hand and rightly so I'm afraid! I would love to ride by feel and instinct but mine's just plain wrong when it comes to this! I believe I need to use core muscles rather than bracing back. Doing it is another matter. Any suggestions / exercises much appreciated.

This minefield might not be the place for a newbie to venture but its very relevant so here goes... I would hold my breath but that's wrong too!

This is something I'm working on myself at the moment, in an attempt to fine tune a few things to allow me to take the next step up in my riding.

Taking the horse out of the equation I think the first thing to work on is to try and to be able to feel which areas/muscle groups you are using at a given point in time and where points of tension are. Once you have that the key is then being able to 'force' your body to relax that area (which is not always as easy as it sounds). I am finding pilates a really good way to start this process, although with pilates it is really essential to get the right instructor ... if you are in a big group session and it all feels a bit easy/pointless then you are doing it wrong.

The other off horse thing I have planned shortly is an intensive simulator session. I am hoping this might help highlight a few body positioning errors - will feed back when I've done it.

On horse exercise - on I learnt at Talland - every now and again look over your outside shoulder directly behind you. The main aim of this is to bring your inside hip up and forwards ... but another positive side effect I have found is that it can help to break a cycle of brace/tension in the back/shoulders

 

[Turks]

Ihatework - thanks for that. I have a feeling Pilates would help but I would struggle to get to regular sessions. Will give some thought and try the other exercises in meantime. Thanks. Will try to report back. Alignment must also be key I guess as if not truly balanced body will have to work harder to hold itself.

 

[TrasaM]

Can I dip a toe in here and ask for some suggestions on this topic as to how I can release tension in my back that runs through to my shoulders blocking my hands. I have worked to still my hands and this can give trainers the impression that my hands are quite good but it belies a stiffness in my back and shoulders. Horses resist my hand and rightly so I'm afraid! I would love to ride by feel and instinct but mine's just plain wrong when it comes to this! I believe I need to use core muscles rather than bracing back. Doing it is another matter. Any suggestions / exercises much appreciated.

This minefield might not be the place for a newbie to venture but its very relevant so here goes... I would hold my breath but that's wrong too!

I had Alexander technique lessons to try to sort out my one sidedness. It teaches you to recognise where you are holding tension as well as good posture. It's taken me a while to learn that I can release tension in one part of my body without letting another bit go too floppy. Highly recommend it for design with ingrained imbalances.

 

[TarrSteps]

I'd agree very much with ihw's post - it really is something that's much easier to address off the horse first. You could also try a gym ball - not quite the same as a horse but useful all the same.

There are a number of books/videos that address posture and relaxation in riding - have you tried any of those?

 

[Nicnac]

Can I dip a toe in here and ask for some suggestions on this topic as to how I can release tension in my back that runs through to my shoulders blocking my hands. I have worked to still my hands and this can give trainers the impression that my hands are quite good but it belies a stiffness in my back and shoulders. Horses resist my hand and rightly so I'm afraid! I would love to ride by feel and instinct but mine's just plain wrong when it comes to this! I believe I need to use core muscles rather than bracing back. Doing it is another matter. Any suggestions / exercises much appreciated.

This minefield might not be the place for a newbie to venture but its very relevant so here goes... I would hold my breath but that's wrong too!

Like you I cannot commit to regular Pilates as work gets in the way. I have a gym ball and a balance board (is that what it's called?) both have made a difference to core strength.

And FWIW - leg yield out/spiral in!

 

[Baydale]

I've always found leg yield on the circle incredibly difficult so, although I do use it now and again, I tend to use shoulder-in to renvers and back again as a suppling exercise. I find it's better than doing a dodgy leg yield with varying angle, loss of forwardness etc and if you start it all in walk they seem to get the hang of it. I found this, if it's of any use?

http://www.volkerbrommann.com/ph-pdfs/PRHP-080100-Dress.pdf

Another thing that I do is if they get at all stuck in any lateral work, ride forward into medium, then once you've re-established the forwardness have another go. I think you can get so hung up on angle etc that you forget to ride forward and it gets worse and worse, whereas once you're forward and straight again it becomes easier.

I hope that makes sense. It's Friday afternoon and my brain's capacity has been vastly reduced by a week at work.

 

[Maia]

Hmmm... Think I am more confused now then before I posted! Probably doesn't help that I lack the coordination to carry a mug of coffee without spilling it!!!

What I think I have learnt (in very simple terms) is:
•LY out from circle - fine
•if keeping bend throughout - spiral in, don't LY
•if LY in, change bend and only decrease by a few m until secure.
•SI and renvers can be a useful variation for suppleness.

No disrespect to some of the more thorough posters but LY in itself is not a problem - my horse will do it anywhere provided he has slight outside or no flexion with reins knotted and left on his neck if I want him too - it was the realisation that what I was (inadvertently) trying to HP on an ever decreasing circle that I wanted to check and to see how others rode the exercise to avoid doing this.

And to the poster who asked another whether they rode their horse bareback without a bridle with the insinuation that this was impossible... Actually all my horses have been broken bareback in a head collar and now they are more established are regularly ridden bareback in a head collar with the rope loose on their necks... It is possible and if you YouTube it there are some stunning riders that do just this (and no, I don't class myself as one of them. Likewise I appreciate this doesn't suit every horse and have had horses that have gone just as well in a double/pelham

 

[Maia]

*iphone posted before I had finished!

Likewise I appreciate this doesn't suit every horse and have had horses that have gone just as well in a double/pelham and have needed it as quite frankly a head collar alone would have been a death wish! Point being it *is* possible to ride and get good results without a rein aid!

 

[Turks]

Nicnac, tarrsteps and Trasam - many thanks for pointers. Thought Pilates DVD might be compromise (recommendations welcome!). Have arranged for some lunge/video sessions with livery so I can compare that following schoolmaster lesson t'other day. Between horses at mo so thought ideal time to make serious change before inflicting myself on next!

 

[tristar]

omg! i never use leg yield, dont like it! some top trainers say it disengages the hind quarters! give it up and save yourself a lot of worry!

i want to get on a horse, i ride forward, within the horses rhythm, achieve longitudinal suppleness as well as the other types, i make the effort to sit in a way that does not impede the horse from what i am asking him to do, and avoid going behind the bit at all costs.

its all getting too complicated, who wants all that stuff! riding should be about liberating the horse to show his true energies,, and give him the chance to show you what he is capable of, you may be suprised.

 

[Tonks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp8Rb49r5D0&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

^^This is my horse being very strong...forward is being controlledby the core HH so the reins are free for the balancing(outside) and flexing(inside)...you can see how forward and hard he is pulling on the bit by the "on the forehand" transition that happened at the last moment for a sec before the rider rebalances the longitudinal flexion...below we see the same discussion being done at the trot

I think as riders we are always learning. I do indeed, see myself on video and think 'oh my god' that's not what it felt like and have to go back to the drawing board and I feel pretty frustrated with myself.

However, I think that the video's you have shown do not confirm what you have stated in your posts.

In the first video above, I do not see a horse that is being 'controlled by the core'. I see a horse that lacks obedience [and therefore understanding] of the rein aids. I know that sometimes our horses are fresh but this is what adquate turnout/lunging is for so that we can eliminate this 'disobedience'.

I think in this video you are struggling to control the speed of the feet and therefore, your horse lacks rhythm.

I would argue that you are misintepreting 'being on the forehand' with a horse which is actually leaning on the bit. He is responding by applying his own pressure. Horse normally do this when there is confusion regarding pressure in the mouth due to inaccurate pressure/release timings.

I am also a bit confused regarding the end of the video. This would have been a prime opportunity to 'use the seat' to ask for this downward transition from trot to walk. However, what you do is pull on the reins, remain in standing position in the stirrups and it is the pull on the reins that asks the horse to stop.

This alone, is enough for your horse to a) have confusion about what the seat means and b) cause confusing regarding pressure in the mouth because you did not release as soon as the horse gave the desired response.

In addition, this is not what you claim to do.

I see a horse that is not 'on the aids' but one that leans and dictates the speed of his own legs.

In the next video, which shows canter I think you overthink your 'core/s' to point where it is a little rigid and at times you come slightly behind the verticle which actually forces your seat bones in a 'driving position'.

I would argue that your horse feels a slightly 'driving seat', that is perhaps a little rigid. Couple with his lack of obedience to the rein aids you have a horse that is 'made' strong.

Can I also pick up on your point where you state that the "reins are free for the balancing(outside)". What does this mean?

To 'balance' means "Keep or put (something) in a steady position so that it does not fall". Therefore, is your outside rein attempting to hold the horse's head/neck/shoulder up?

This phrase really tells us nothing about the actual mechanical action of the rein.

The reality is that your outside rein asks for an indirect turn of the shoulders and can also ask the horse to stop/slow it's feet (couple with the other rein, of course.) Nothing more, nothing less. It is up to your horse to balance himself.

I may be completely barking up the wrong tree and i do admire your bravery in posting video's to open yourself up for criticism.

 

[Tonks]

omg! i never use leg yield, dont like it! some top trainers say it disengages the hind quarters! give it up and save yourself a lot of worry!

i want to get on a horse, i ride forward, within the horses rhythm, achieve longitudinal suppleness as well as the other types, i make the effort to sit in a way that does not impede the horse from what i am asking him to do, and avoid going behind the bit at all costs.

its all getting too complicated, who wants all that stuff! riding should be about liberating the horse to show his true energies,, and give him the chance to show you what he is capable of, you may be suprised.

I have to say, I think this is a very good attitude! Like we're taught in good old fashioned pony club....."just get on with it and stop messing around!!". This says a lot about YOUR attitude in being able to truely get the horse off the leg with obedience, without any messing. Here, here!! So much napping is caused by this lack of attitude from the rider. And, it's this lack of obedience that rears its ugly head then in all others aspects of the work - refusing???? spinning?????.

If I give my ISH too many chances to deviate from what I say we should do, I'll end up on the floor - it all starts from simply going forward in a medium walk without any changes in pace from him. He's not allowed to alter the line/straightness either.

He's totally adorable but he does like to 'open discussions' about what are doing!! Bless.

I think lateral work is useful for number of reasons though and does have it's place. But, there's a lot of be said for simply going forward in a rhythm. Here, here!!