Hobble for travelling-or any other options?

You mention an alternative route coming in from the other direction could you not go a bit out of your way to use that perhaps?
 
Welsh D - I was thinking and I probably could detour around to come from the other direction, it would take about 30 min longer and the roads are very narrow, twisty and full of potholes so wouldn't give him the smoothest ride, but then if he's being bumped around he mightn't be able to paw! The other road although very undulating has a good surface and is wide, in that you don't have to stop and squash into the hedge when you meet something! and has lines (a bonus in Ireland) so is an easier drive for me and them once you go very slowly. I could try detouring for a few trips but we will have to come the direct way eventually and I think that road is now his trigger so I wonder will it always be or if I go the other way a few times will he forget about the other road?
 
buzzles said:
Welsh D - I was thinking and I probably could detour around to come from the other direction, it would take about 30 min longer and the roads are very narrow, twisty and full of potholes so wouldn't give him the smoothest ride, but then if he's being bumped around he mightn't be able to paw! The other road although very undulating has a good surface and is wide, in that you don't have to stop and squash into the hedge when you meet something! and has lines (a bonus in Ireland) so is an easier drive for me and them once you go very slowly. I could try detouring for a few trips but we will have to come the direct way eventually and I think that road is now his trigger so I wonder will it always be or if I go the other way a few times will he forget about the other road?
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Horses don't forget. :) I think your instinct to set new habits is the right one. The whole point of stereotypies is they "work" - they displace the anxiety/stress into a movement or behaviour that gives the horse release. So your two options are to reduce the stress and/or to redirect the behaviour. "Training" (which isn't training in the way people usually mean it, it's actually habituation or desensitisation) can help in both areas but there are other mechanisms at work that can be addressed. (If anyone is really interested read Temple Grandin's work.) With the pawing while standing you displaced the pawing into walking in a circle and possibly, without meaning to the tap on the leg acted not just as punishment but as a way of bringing him out of that almost manic state horses can get into in those situations.

Horses used to wear "kicking chains" for pawing and kicking, the reasoning being that the chain punished the behaviour. But, knowing what we know now, it makes you wonder if it was the constant pressure of the cuff and the chain that helped in at least some cases. Of course horses also learn what gets attention so not every pawing or kicking horse is necessarily showing a containment vice per se, but they are all showing some level of frustration.

Btw, we are often taught these stereotypies are the prevail of domestic animals but I once watched a deer weave like a loony waiting its turn to jump through a gap in a hedge. Clearly he had not read the book!

Anyway, blah blah blah. All I'm saying is a mat or even hobbles does not necessarily "work" because it is somehow punishing for the horse and that simply "practicing" without any other measures will get to the root of the problem. He is not so stupid to not recognise his own driveway and it will always frustrate him that he can't get there faster, the key is how much will it frustrate him and how can you best help him release that without trashing your trailer.
 
Thanks tarrsteps- that's very interesting and what I thought myself. I wouldn't call it a vice as such, it's just a way for him to express his impatience at wanting to get home and as he's only been really bad the last few times I want to nip it in the bud now before it becomes an even more engrained behaviour and possible harder to stop. Lol at the weaving deer- all animals (and people) get impatient and frustrated and they each have their own ways or expressing it, I just need to teach him that he can't express it quite as vigorously! He learned to stop pawing in the stable and under saddle very quickly so hopefully it will only take the mat or a few trips with hobbles to distract him or train it out of him. Interestingly he's only been worse recently when he's been out less frequently, he wasn't as bad during the summer when he could be out 2 or 3 times a week sometimes. He's pretty much the perfect horse in all aspects, both riding and on the ground so if we can sort this little blip out it will be great.
 
buzzles said:
The trigger is the road from our village (about 10 min away) is very undulating and twisty - its known as the rollercoaster road! and once we hit this he knows we're nearly home and so gets impatient and starts pawing very vigorously.

Also those who’ve used hobbles for travelling before, did they work and how did you use them, should I use them all the time or stop in the village on the way home and put them on?
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Two points. Please don't think I am criticising, these are just a couple of pointers that might help.

No.1 the road is very twisty and undulating.

That speaks volumes to me. Are you in a big 4x4 so you can't feel what the trailer is doing behind you by any chance? Are you sure you are not taking the bends too fast? Does the road have uneven cambers? Is your horse really impatient because he has reached this road and thinks he will soon be home. More likely the road is making him paw the ground as he is stressed by being driven along it?

You may think you are going slowly but its a bit different when you are a horse stood in the back of the trailer unable to see where the vehicle is going next and unable to balance accordingly. Suggest you put a plastic cup of water on the boot of your car and see how long it lasts before falling off when you approach the twisty road (put another in your trailer so it won't get blown away). I know its very illegal and very dangerous but how about just for five mins standing it the trailer whilst someone tows you without the horses in, so you can get a idea of how the horse feels - no peeping out of the window now!!! I did that and nearly brought my dinner back up!

No.2 Hobbles

Hmmm. Had a friend who did this to her horse. But forgot to take them off prior to unloading. The poor horse panicked, threw its head up onto the roof of the trailer and nearly knocked itself out, that's a hell of a bang to a horses head to nearly make it unconcious as they have such thick skulls. I'd be worried in case the horse stressed so I would try them in an enclosed area first out of a trailer.
 
buzzles said:
I wouldn't call it a vice as such, it's just a way for him to express his impatience at wanting to get home

He's pretty much the perfect horse in all aspects, both riding and on the ground so if we can sort this little blip out it will be great.
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Just to add that this is exactly how my old cob was. The only other time that he would pipe up in the trailer was if I had a navigation failure and had to go twice round a roundabout! I swear he was counting the exits and then he would neigh and stamp until I got back on track!
 
applecart- I'm 100% positive it's not the actual road. He's fine going out and was fine coming back until recently when he obviously started to recognise the specific undulations and bends- it's usually at one certain spot he starts and then keeps going. I drive really slowly and have even driven extra slow thinking maybe it was the road and I was going a little too quick, I mean creeping along- (in second gear and not past 20 km/hr- even slower on the very bad bends) - feel sorry for the poor drivers who get stuck behind me as there's nowhere to overtake or pull in and let them past! Actually he was worse the slower I went! I do have a 4x4 but it's not a huge one- I can feel the whole trailer shaking and jumping when he starts stomping. He's a good traveller, I've driven much worse roads that were twistier and bumpier and full of potholes and there's not a peep out of him.
If I do have to try the hobbles I will for sure try them on him in the stable first and would never forget to take them off him before unloading- that sounds like it was more a case of forgetting and making a mistake than the actual fault of the hobbles with your friend and mistakes generally do cause accidents! I was very lucky with my lad when he was stomping so hard that he broke the pin and knocked down the breast bar that he didn't go through the front of the box, a scenario I don't want repeated!
Thanks for you thoughts though.
 
Tiddlypom- love it, like your very own sat nav in the back! My old lad used to neigh when we turned off onto the lane to announce to the other horses on the yard he was nearly home and they'd all neigh back at him!
 
Just to say "vice" is just a word, slang for what is technically called a "sterotypy". I know it's a loaded term but it doesn't mean to imply your horse is "bad".

I think that is the key to this sort of thing, actually, to not see the horse as "bad" but just as the whole scenario as a puzzle to be solved. Sounds like you're on it! :)
 
l dont think he's bad, just picked up an annoying habit! l guess what l meant as not a vice is when l've seen horses with vices like weaving, cribbing or wind sucking it seems to calm them down when they're stressed, like its a way theyve found of coping with a stress amd it relaxes them or else theyve discovered they like the effect it has on them. My lads stomping is a sign of impatience and he's just expressing it and letting everyone else know rather than hes getting stressed and this calms him down. l dont think l'm explaining myself very well and the difference between a vice and an undesirable behaviour is probably for another thread!
 
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