Hock spavin- ethanol, steroids, arthramid etc...

[SusieT]

When you thinki about it logically, if the aim is to fuse the joint it shouldn't matter when it is done as the pain is coming from the joint and once fused it is stable - so timing should not make a difference.

 

[ycbm]

When you thinki about it logically, if the aim is to fuse the joint it shouldn't matter when it is done as the pain is coming from the joint and once fused it is stable - so timing should not make a difference.

I understood it as the timing make a difference to whether the joint fuses or not. Not all chemical fusion results in a fused joint.
.

 

[Polos Mum]

I understood it as the timing make a difference to whether the joint fuses or not. Not all chemical fusion results in a fused joint.
.

No this seems to be the big risk - you know you are making the situation a lot worse by melting the remaining cartilage. If it then doesn't fuse - your horse is F&^%ed

 

[IrishMilo]

When you thinki about it logically, if the aim is to fuse the joint it shouldn't matter when it is done as the pain is coming from the joint and once fused it is stable - so timing should not make a difference.

I think the general hope is that you treat as non-invasively as possible while the joints fuse naturally - if that happens at all. I guess that's the theory/ideal scenario but I read somewhere that only 25% of them fuse on their own which is quite concerning...

 

[Michen]

Not yet. My vet recommended either Cartrophen (IM injection once a week for four weeks then topped up as required) or steroids into the joint with HA first. We haven't discussed fusion at all yet as I imagine most vets see it as a last resort/use it in the most extreme cases. Post back with what you go for and your experience and I'll do the same. It sounds like we're on the exact same journey TBH. Two young idiotic Connies both with mild changes.

Indeed, although Boggle has never shown any pain or behavioural issues. We found the hocks by accident really so that makes me less inclined to do anything drastic.

 

[Michen]

Thought I’d update this thread (IrishMilo don’t know if this could be useful for you). Bog two weeks post steroids has a big improvement lameness wise but still not 100%. He said barely noticeable in straight line, just the odd stride. Moving to 1/10 consistently, sometimes 2 after flexion.

I’m a bit gutted. I hoped for 100% which was maybe optimistic. We are also going to try Tilden and my vet wants me to bring him back into work and continue with as much walk and hacking as poss. Maybe I’m being unrealistic, I keep reminding myself that when fit and in work there was no lameness relating to the spavin and hoping that this long lay off won’t mean we will never get back there.

Also going to have 6-8 weekly physio to make sure any tightness etc is picked up on promptly, as the last thing I want is anything secondary developing as a result of this low level lameness (which my vet thinks is unlikely at the level it is).

 

[ITPersonnage]

Sorry to hear that, but two weeks isn't very long, was the vet expecting it to be 100% better? You can only do what you can do, sounds like you've got it all covered. Fingers crossed time and some gentle work will improve him again.

 

[Michen]

Sorry to hear that, but two weeks isn't very long, was the vet expecting it to be 100% better? You can only do what you can do, sounds like you've got it all covered. Fingers crossed time and some gentle work will improve him again.

I think if it’s going to make them 100% sound then it tends to happen fairly quickly. But he’s not been ridden for those two weeks so it may be that he needs the combo of work too.

My vet wasn’t disappointed by any means, but he was hoping we’d get a total success. He did say he’d have no issue with that level of lameness and him being in full, normal work.

But of course I had a horse in Feb with NO visible lameness even after flexion so that’s what I want back. But I wonder with these things if they sort of spiral when a horse is laid off.. a bit like racehorses where they seem to sometimes fall apart when taken out of training.

 

[Caol Ila]

Spavin is simply osteoarthritis of the lower three hock joints. All the stuff I read about it (and arthritis in general) stresses that movement helps; obviously not going nuts, like running Badminton or riding a Grand Prix dressage test, but light work, hacking, etc. It's therefore not surprising that Bog started to present symptoms of it while he was laid up.

My quarter horse had a diagnoses of hock arthritis by the time she was 11. Her and everything else at the barn. It seems to be endemic in QHs and QH crosses, and the US vets doled out steroid and HA injections like your corner drug slinger. It's so crazy there that *preventative* hock injections were (and maybe still are) a thing. There's no evidence it works preventively, but nevermind. Needless to say, we were so blase about these things that we continued on with the horse's previous work, so long as we didn't have aspirations beyond low level dressage and trail riding. I did, of course, which was why I bought Gypsum. The hock injections gave my QH and myself a few more happy years of Training/First Level dressage (Prelim/Novice in British English), jumping, and trail rides, and she continued to seem untroubled when trail riding and popping over little fences after I sold her. The dressage thing wasn't right for her, though. But it never was.

Point is, I would work him and see how he goes. The work alone could help him!

 

[Bernster]

Late to this thread and I suspect you’ve read up loads on this. Cartrophen does seem an effective treatment and I know a few horse folk who swear by it. Wasn’t that also the injection Harry meades horse had when it went off games following a reaction to the injection? Anyway, it’s very common.

As caol ila says, work and exercise is a big help. My girl had hock spavin and steroids helped but you’re right, it worked pretty quickly (like days afterwards) plus rehab programme but she had ks too Which required more rehab.

 

[Auslander]

Late to this thread and I suspect you’ve read up loads on this. Cartrophen does seem an effective treatment and I know a few horse folk who swear by it. Wasn’t that also the injection Harry meades horse had when it went off games following a reaction to the injection? Anyway, it’s very common.

I'd second this. Alf has had a fair few things done to help out his arthritic hocks - Tildren, shockwave, steroids etc. He has had a monthly Cartrophen injection for the last two years, and is better than he's ever been as long as I keep them up - I really notice if I miss one.
He does bite me 10 mins after every injection - but it's a small price to pay for still being able to bounce around at 23, after a very high intensity career!

 

[Errin Paddywack]

My 5 yr old pony had occult spavin. Bone spavin lameness eases with exercise, occult spavin doesn't. He was off for a year with no improvement then vet told me to bring him back into fairly hard work for two weeks after which he would x-ray him. This was in 1973 so there weren't the treatments then there are now. Anyway he came sound and the x-rays showed that at last the bones were fusing. He was still sound when I lost him at 23 and he worked hard all his life. Wasn't one to take things quietly, everything had to be done as fast as possible.

 

[SEL]

I think if it’s going to make them 100% sound then it tends to happen fairly quickly. But he’s not been ridden for those two weeks so it may be that he needs the combo of work too.

My vet wasn’t disappointed by any means, but he was hoping we’d get a total success. He did say he’d have no issue with that level of lameness and him being in full, normal work.

But of course I had a horse in Feb with NO visible lameness even after flexion so that’s what I want back. But I wonder with these things if they sort of spiral when a horse is laid off.. a bit like racehorses where they seem to sometimes fall apart when taken out of training.

I know my physio tells me to keep working my arthritic shoulder so the muscles surrounding it are as strong as possible. Her view is painkillers when it is playing up and crack on, otherwise you end up with the muscle tone falling away which puts more pressure on the joint, so you use it less etc etc.

Depending on how Boggle gets on, I'd still put a vote in for the gel injections into his hocks in time.

 

[Caol Ila]

I know my physio tells me to keep working my arthritic shoulder so the muscles surrounding it are as strong as possible. Her view is painkillers when it is playing up and crack on, otherwise you end up with the muscle tone falling away which puts more pressure on the joint, so you use it less etc etc.

Depending on how Boggle gets on, I'd still put a vote in for the gel injections into his hocks in time.

When Gypsum was diagnosed with hock arthritis at 26, my vet said the same thing: keep working her and keep those muscles as strong as possible.

 

[LaurenBay]

Haven't read all the replies but I just wanted to add my Ruby's story.

She was diagnosed with arthritis in both hocks, she too was young. We started off with steriod injections, they lasted around 3-4 months and wore off, we tried them again, this time we did them along side of a tildren drip. This lasted around 3 months again. My vet suggested taking her to newmarket and trying the fusion with ethanol. We gave this a go, and we had a fab 7 months, she seemed to be loving her work and going better then ever and I thought we had cracked the issues. Unfortunately after 7 months she was not right again and x rays showed the fusion had failed, it looks like she was going so brilliantly because the nerves had been killed off during the operation. At this point my vet said the only other option was pins into the bones which I did not want to put her through. I got a second opinion from a different practice and after looking at the previous x rays, said either surgery or I could try Athramid injections. He gave it only a small percentage of actually working though so I decided against this (insurance had run out by this point)

 

[IrishMilo]

Thought I’d update this thread (IrishMilo don’t know if this could be useful for you). Bog two weeks post steroids has a big improvement lameness wise but still not 100%. He said barely noticeable in straight line, just the odd stride. Moving to 1/10 consistently, sometimes 2 after flexion.

Thanks for updating! Mine wasn't positive to flexion but was put at 1/10th lame as he was not tracking up as much on the left as he was the right (vet said even that was super picky). I've decided my course of treatment will be laser therapy (starting October), and then Cartrophen - if that doesn't work then I don't really know. The more I've read the more effective and longer-lasting Cartrophen seems to be vs. steroid jabs.

Milo does seem much happier in himself, the only difference now is that I've stopped all schooling work and lightly hack him for a few KMs most days, plus he got a course of Omeprazole and is on YuMove. We've just started trotting and a little bit of canter in straight lines. He's does still kick his heels up occasionally but no where near as bad as he was pre-diagnosis. Must admit I'm feeling a bit bleugh about it regardless. I'll never feel comfortable jumping him properly again which is what I live for.

 

[Michen]

Thanks for updating! Mine wasn't positive to flexion but was put at 1/10th lame as he was not tracking up as much on the left as he was the right (vet said even that was super picky). I've decided my course of treatment will be laser therapy (starting October), and then Cartrophen - if that doesn't work then I don't really know. The more I've read the more effective and longer-lasting Cartrophen seems to be vs. steroid jabs.

Milo does seem much happier in himself, the only difference now is that I've stopped all schooling work and lightly hack him for a few KMs most days, plus he got a course of Omeprazole and is on YuMove. We've just started trotting and a little bit of canter in straight lines. He's does still kick his heels up occasionally but no where near as bad as he was pre-diagnosis. Must admit I'm feeling a bit bleugh about it regardless. I'll never feel comfortable jumping him properly again which is what I live for.

Great news that Milo is happier and I get what you mean re not feeling comfortable.

Yours seems very quick to tell you if he's in discomfort though, which is in some ways a blessing as if you did decide to jump again etc, you'd soon know if it was causing him an issue. Mine would do everything with his ears pricked even with a leg hanging off and that makes it very tricky for me to know if he's in discomfort or not. I have to be super careful that I don't take his enthusiasm and zest for life and break him because he wouldn't flag an issue.

FWIW, my vet said he would have no issue with him being in full work (jumping, low level eventing, hunting) with the level of lameness he's seeing. He said he's a lot sounder than most competing at decent level. But of course it's irrelevant to me at this time anyway as I'm adding an extra 6 months to give the ligament injury every chance of a full recovery, so only intend to hack in walk with the odd trot anyway!