Holocaust denial bishop expelled from Argentina

Sooty

Sooty

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5800802.ece

I didn't know that holocaust denial is a crime in many countries. This was being discussed on a talk show this morning, and someone commented that it is strange that this man can find enough evidence to believe in the resurrection, but claims there is not enough evidence from an event that happened 60 years ago to substantiate its existence. Barking!

Should holocaust denial be a crime in the UK? Despite my own background I have to say no, it shouldn't. Holocaust denial is a theory, an idea, and it seems very dodgy to make having an idea a crime. No matter how vile it is - unless it is used to cause harm or stir up hatred, in which case it is covered under existing legislation.
 
Freedom of speech, to my mind, means that you should pretty much be able to say whatever you like - and not be punished for it.

I don't know enough about this Bishop to have an opinion on him really - but as with all of these people who deny that there was a holocast (or that it was on the scale it was) I don't understand how they can refute such clear and damning evidence. As with many denials of this nature - I think there is more to it than an a total disbelief that it happened, and possibly indicates a deeper mental abnormality or refusal to admit the truth because of some signifcant event or connection in their own lives.
 
Whilst I don't see how anyone could deny the holocaust actually happened, I don't think disbelieving should be a crime, unless, as you say, it's used to stir up hatred/cause harm. I don't think anyone should be told what to believe; some people still think the earth is flat, that evolution is a load of bunk, etc, etc.
 
i think that everyone should have a right to question historical facts as these are generally written by the victors who may lack objectivity in some of the conclusions they arrive at. However it is a fact that a great many people were killed by the Final Solution and if questioning the happpenings of those times people need to show great tact and sensitivty and maybe this Bishop was more guilty of ignorance.
 
I don't believe it should be a crime. I feel that the evidence of the holocaust having occurred is strong and robust and can easily withstand the theories of those who would deny that it happened. I tend to think that to say this particular episode in history needs special protection, that it cannot be denied, makes it seem like the evidence cannot withstand scrutiny. (NB, I don't believe that to be the case)
 
Well this particular bishop also says that girls and universities do not mix. The reason? WELL universities are about ideas. REAL girls are not about ideas.Hence they don't mix!!
 
yes that is a good point blackstar, but having read a little bit of what theis man has said, i dont think he is dening the event happened more the extent of it, and to be fair there are some discrepancies about the numbers involved.
Where as i personally believe it doesnt matter if it were one million or ten and it was an episode in history that needs to be remembered for the horror it was, i can see why when the figures from one source say 4 million and another says 100'000 (at one camp) that certain persons would then question all the facts. As PF so rightly says people will believe wht they want and i believe the Bishop and like minded individuals are misguided in the extreme but we wold be on a very slippery slope making ignorance a crime.
 

I wnder what Saint Peter will say to him if he reaches the gates?
Somehow I doubt he will get in..
Vile man, to not respect the terrible sufferings of so many and to dismiss the obvious evidence left behind.
I think I prefer him to be allowed in especially if he were to preach in public, he would then be left with no doubt about how he is viewed by the majority of people.
 
I have read through these forums for quite a while but feel I must comment on this subject. Considering this man supports a belief, massively prevalent it may be, albeit having no concrete evidence to support any of its factors, there is no explanation given as to why he point blank dismisses the Holocaust.

This was an event that had many surviving witnesses testifying exactly the same incidents, Auswitchz, the concentration camp preserved so people would remember the horror. The thousands of bodies in trenches in the photographs, The retaining of all valuable possessions that made the Natzi’s so rich. The bloody madness of obsessive control. I have a right to free speech too and I think shame on him.

I thought his religion encompassed compassion and understanding.
 
I am not sure religion is about compassion and understanding. It is often about power and control. I can see why the catholic church would wish to distance themselves from this man, particularly as their own complicity in the persecution of Jews at the time has been open to question.

Personally, I support freedom of speech. Which gives me the freedom to say I find this man's views abhorrant.
A
 
If incitement of the people would have been illegal in Germany before 1949, the holocaust would not have happened - if that isn't reason enough to make it illegal then I don't know what is - and I don't see how turning a fact into a matter of "believing", is not incitement of the people. And i won't even mention his position in that context...
 
Absolutely, Arabelle. There is a HUGE difference between free speech and deliberately ignoring an overwhelming body of evidence in order to incite racial hatred - which is what Holocaust denying does. It implies that the Jews have overexaggerated the number of deaths for sympathy.
Let us not forget that enormous numbers of disabled people and gypsies were also exterminated.
Saying "i don't believe x people died at Ypres" is a LOT less inflammatory than "i don't believe x people died in the Holocaust", or even "the Holocaust did not occur".
His stance is despicable.
Racial intolerance, including anti-semitism, is on the rise across the world. In order to avoid such terrible things happening again, we must continue to digest the fact that this was allowed to happen once, and within living memory. Allowing anyone with a public voice (and this is really important, no-one cares what anyone says in private!) to make a point of denying what happened in WW2 is the first step on a very dangerous path imho.
 
There was a big thread on Holocaust and denial in soapbox a couple of weeks back Sooty, I'll see if I can find it.

You guys seem to be confusing two issues though. Holocaust denial IS NOT always about denying that it didn't happen full stop, more that they deny the extent of the event. They dont believe THAT many people were killed as a result of it. Plus issues of conspiracy theories etc.

The reason it is a crime in places like Austria and Germany is that it's still a very raw topic for the populations. Not many people know that Germany didn't even come to accept what had happened until the 1970s when a new generation started asking questions about the war. The reason that it's illegal is so a) it's never hushed under the carpet again and b) so people don't forget how bad it actually was. If you're allowed to deny the Holocaust, you're also denying the existence of the Nazi party too.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...=67&fpart=1

You've also got to remember that there's massive evidence to suggest British politics and the military ignored what was going for a good 3 years before they did something about it. If they knew very well what was going in these "labour" camps, why did they choose not to do anything. That's denial surely? If they'd have done something, maybe it had never got that extreme.


Oh and not just Jews lying about numbers, but historians in general.
 
This is a fascinating thread. As a Jewish member of this forum, I am heartened by many of the replies.

No matter what the facts are, there are people in the world who will not accept them.

Aside from the death camp survivors, and the actual gas chambers and ovens still there for all to see, the Nazis kept impeccable records.

With so many resourses to go to for proof, I do not accept that Holocaust denial comes from ignorance.

Sadly, I believe Holocaust denial is a symptom of profound hatred.

Should it be a crime? In Germany, certainly, where the Germans have taken years to come to grips with their own history.

As for the rest of the world, if you wish to deny the Holocaust in your own home, amongst friends, the law doesn't have the right to step in.

However, if you are using a public platform to incite hatred of any kind, of course the law should intervene.

In the case of the Bishop, this man is in a position of moral authority. He should never have been reinstated by the church, and should be shunned (as he has been) by all people of good will.
 
as teapot says the issues are getting mixed up here. it is not about whether the holocaust existed, not even the bishop is doing that, but about the extent and the exact details. Considering that the Nazi's razed Treblinka to the ground, burnt the records and denied it was ever even there, not all the drecords from that time are complete by any stretch of the imagination. i dont agree with the Bishop but he has the right to question the facts.
Whether a man in his position should be doing such questioning in public is completely another. Both catholics and protestant religions have been guilty of great atrocities in the past but surely the current church is, as someone said above, allegedly about compassion, forgiveness and understanding so his behaviour, which most people would agree, is insensitive in the least, is not really something the church should condone.
 
Hi all, If anyone was wondering I deleted my last post because I thought it was too harsh. By the way, Teapot, I agree with all of your observations.
 
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