Home barefoot rehab support for someone please

paddy555 said:
to a point yes but if walking a lame horse just makes it move even more badly then it usually has a knock on effect to somewhere else in it's body. Depends whether that potential further damage is an acceptable risk or will make matters worse.

The ideal is letting it wander without a human demanding a walk or a herd to bully it.
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It's not ideal if it doesn't cure it. I've had one here that was lame for four years including several spells of field rest, the last one a whole year. Horse was still lame. I walked it and walked it and it was sound within three months. For me, that's also the point of a flat road. They move with least effort on a flat hard surface and don't do themselves further damage elsewhere. You can't stop the damage til you get a heel first landing. You can't get a heel first landing if you don't strengthen the heel. It's not chicken and egg, the heel and foot balance has to come first or the damage never stops. Rooney's experiments showed this clearly.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rehab horses move because the herd bullies it? The rehabs I've had have followed the lead horse, not been pushed by it.
 
ycbm said:
It's not ideal if it doesn't cure it. I've had one here that was lame for four years including several spells of field rest, the last one a whole year. Horse was still lame. I walked it and walked it and it was sound within three months. For me, that's also the point of a flat road. They move with least effort on a flat hard surface and don't do themselves further damage elsewhere. You can't stop the damage til you get a heel first landing. You can't get a heel first landing if you don't strengthen the heel. It's not chicken and egg, the heel and foot balance has to come first or the damage never stops. Rooney's experiments showed this clearly.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rehab horses move because the herd bullies it? The rehabs I've had have followed the lead horse, not been pushed by it.
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everyone is entitled to their own opinion so we will have to differ. I personally wouldn't walk a horse that is lame (unless of course a vet requested it) I don't disagree with your theory I would just not force a lame horse into daily walks. I have seen horses where that has been done and I can see little to recommend it. To my mind rehabbing a horse takes as long as it takes.

Again on herd dynamics we will have to differ. I have seen plenty of horses lower down the pecking order, or poorly, being bullied. (not necessarily barefoot ones)
 
No-one is talking about forcing any lame horse to walk. The ones I have seen and the ones I have done were overjoyed to get out and about. Very few horses who will benefit from a barefoot rehab will be noticeably lame in walk.

Of course horses get bullied. A rehab who is being bullied should be removed from that environment. All movement by a rehab should be undertaken willingly.
 
ycbm said:
No-one is talking about forcing any lame horse to walk. The ones I have seen and the ones I have done were overjoyed to get out and about. Very few horses who will benefit from a barefoot rehab will be noticeably lame in walk.

Of course horses get bullied. A rehab who is being bullied should be removed from that environment. All movement by a rehab should be undertaken willingly.
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Gosh, we are not talking about forcing a hobbling horse to walk, like ycbm said. It is not until you lunge her on a circle in trot that you see the lameness. She had a blast going out for a walk yesterday, poor thing is bored being on turnout by herself. But I am certainly going to stick to turnout in the arena and a potter about on the yard, as I don't appear to know what I am doing!
 
So very sorry, not read all replies... late to the party!!

Hoping I can provide some reassurance re vets.. I eventually got support from mine for my old boy but no farrier supported me so I went to an equine podiatrist (best thing I ever bloomin did!)... it was October when I took the plunge. The hardest winter I can remember for the southern counties too. The ground was frozen for some weeks.

My boy had lami and navicular. It was PTS or turn away... so I turned away. 10mo later we were xc/ht over the hardest summer ground! He went round twice without flinching.

Personally, I think you can over-do rehab. Sometimes just letting Mother Nature fix her beasts is a good option.
 
I don't dispute for one moment that turning away works for a fair proportion of horses. Especially turning away on hard ground like you did.

But can I ask you to explain what you mean by 'you can overdo rehab' ? I've never known one done progressively make a horse worse. Is that what you meant?
 
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ycbm said:
I don't dispute for one moment that turning away works for a fair proportion of horses. Especially turning away on hard ground like you did.

But can I ask you to explain what you mean by 'you can overdo rehab' ? I've never known one done progressively make a horse worse. Is that what you meant?
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What I mean is that I see some people try and regiment the whole process... when just turning away could provide the time and stimulation needed.

Never heard of it making a horse worse, but perhaps I have seen it take much longer. Stabling doesn't give the stimulation required... and actually, right at the beginning, it was yourself and other helpful people on this forum that told me the same thing (iirc) - of which I am eternally grateful. If it wasn't for you suggesting a mineral change, he would be back in the stable and not turned out 24/7, even as a laminitic.
 
Evening :)

We slo-mo'd her front feet today. To my very untrained eye it looks like they are landing square when viewed front on. She is landing toe first on her LF and flat on her RF. Her RF is the foot that we are more worried about due to her conformation. Her RF is also the one that will show heat and a pulse sometimes.

Should I be aiming for flat or heel first?

We had a slight drop in temperature so half of the arena was much more firm so I decided that would be enough for her to be walking on for the last couple of days.

I did take some (rubbish!) pictures of her feet, haven't got a clue as to what we should be hoping for long term :o
 
Heel first, but it will arrive over a few weeks in the toe first foot. Flat is good, as in it will not cause damage, heel first is better as it is shock absorbing.

Long term you are hoping for soundness, even if her feet look seriously odd :) Handsome is as handsome does.
 
ycbm said:
Heel first, but it will arrive over a few weeks in the toe first foot. Flat is good, as in it will not cause damage, heel first is better as it is shock absorbing.

Long term you are hoping for soundness, even if her feet look seriously odd :) Handsome is as handsome does.
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Could you explain why it should be heel first please? I can find equal amount of articles pro heel first and pro flat. To someone who doesn't understand, I would have thought the rocking of the heel first landing to be detrimental? As in, the hoof should take the weight evenly.
 
Demented Elf said:
Could you explain why it should be heel first please? I can find equal amount of articles pro heel first and pro flat. To someone who doesn't understand, I would have thought the rocking of the heel first landing to be detrimental? As in, the hoof should take the weight evenly.
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I have questioned this myself many times. I've probably come across the same anecdotes you have. Take it all on board but do not stress.

Thing is, the study numbers are small with many variables not taking into account history or conformation etc etc. Interestingly, my new mare changes what she does depending on her seasons almost so how can you get a proper control? It's very subjective. Unless you have a model with hundreds of not thousands and have arms where breed, sex and baseline characteristics are separated out you just can't.

Right now, my mare is heel first. This is because she has thick soles, fairly high heels and tough lateral cartilages so she just stomps wherever she pleases. Plus, it's winter and grass is low in sugar and not in season. When in season, she becomes very sensitive and I have watched carefully to see if its grass... i'm uncertain as yet as she in one case. So, she becomes very sensitive, tummy becomes sore, back is a bit dippy, feet go all stinky... then, all of a sudden, snorting dragon about to climb up the cotswold way like a goat and heel landing again.

This mare also dishes but still lands heel first on "good days" lets call it. I can hear it for a start... when she lands flat I can hear the change... it's more of a "fap fap fap" rather than the "c-lap c-lap c-lap" that I get when she strides out sound. The stride isn't all that shorter but she is a bit more up in her neck.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that just bear in mind what's "your normal" - what is "sound" for you. And it may change... listening to your horse certainly takes on new meanings when barefoot :)

My barometer is how she is in herself. If those hooves take me up the rocks, she's clearly well.
 
hollyandtheivy said:
I have questioned this myself many times. I've probably come across the same anecdotes you have. Take it all on board but do not stress.

Thing is, the study numbers are small with many variables not taking into account history or conformation etc etc. Interestingly, my new mare changes what she does depending on her seasons almost so how can you get a proper control? It's very subjective. Unless you have a model with hundreds of not thousands and have arms where breed, sex and baseline characteristics are separated out you just can't.

Right now, my mare is heel first. This is because she has thick soles, fairly high heels and tough lateral cartilages so she just stomps wherever she pleases. Plus, it's winter and grass is low in sugar and not in season. When in season, she becomes very sensitive and I have watched carefully to see if its grass... i'm uncertain as yet as she in one case. So, she becomes very sensitive, tummy becomes sore, back is a bit dippy, feet go all stinky... then, all of a sudden, snorting dragon about to climb up the cotswold way like a goat and heel landing again.

This mare also dishes but still lands heel first on "good days" lets call it. I can hear it for a start... when she lands flat I can hear the change... it's more of a "fap fap fap" rather than the "c-lap c-lap c-lap" that I get when she strides out sound. The stride isn't all that shorter but she is a bit more up in her neck.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that just bear in mind what's "your normal" - what is "sound" for you. And it may change... listening to your horse certainly takes on new meanings when barefoot :)

My barometer is how she is in herself. If those hooves take me up the rocks, she's clearly well.
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Gosh, good, answer - thank you for taking the time :)
 
Flat is correct for shoes otherwise the leverage of a rigid shoe smacks the toe down on the floor with horrible concussion.

Landing heel first in a barefoot horse allows the frog to play its proper role as a shock absorber.

If you look at the Rockley footage every lame horse that comes sound changes to a heel first landing. I've not seen a sound rehab, or any hard working barefoot horse in fact, who lands flat
 
Demented Elf said:
Gosh, good, answer - thank you for taking the time :)
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Mind you, this mare has never had shoes on so theres another little factor ;)

p.s. as my mare is a very mareish mare, I have found that agnus cacts really helps us in spring/summer. NOt saying for you to try or anything but just to show there there is quite a bit of finger in the wind as well as proper science :)
 
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All of my horses who I've taken BF have ended up with a heel first landing. In actual fact I've only ever had one toe first landing and that is my current one. I believe comfortable movement and self trimming is the way to cure that in him. He's 18, been shod all his working life. Is sound and in work. Only been BF for a month.
 
ycbm said:
Flat is correct for shoes otherwise the leverage of a rigid shoe smacks the toe down on the floor with horrible concussion.

Landing heel first in a barefoot horse allows the frog to play its proper role as a shock absorber.

If you look at the Rockley footage every lame horse that comes sound changes to a heel first landing. I've not seen a sound rehab, or any hard working barefoot horse in fact, who lands flat
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Thank you, I have looked at Rockley, I had just been looking at other articles etc. You can never have too much information :D Yours is a good explanation, thank you :)

hollyandtheivy said:
Mind you, this mare has never had shoes on so theres another little factor ;)

p.s. as my mare is a very mareish mare, I have found that agnus cacts really helps us in spring/summer. NOt saying for you to try or anything but just to show there there is quite a bit of finger in the wind as well as proper science :)
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Ahh, a little sneaky :p but still worthwhile information :) I only have mares, and rarely have any problems with seasons.

FfionWinnie said:
All of my horses who I've taken BF have ended up with a heel first landing. In actual fact I've only ever had one toe first landing and that is my current one. I believe comfortable movement and self trimming is the way to cure that in him. He's 18, been shod all his working life. Is sound and in work. Only been BF for a month.
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The proof is in the pudding then, thank you, I won't be happy until she is landing heel first ... sob :eek:
 
I was all set to give her 10 minutes walking up the drive yesterday, the weather was gorgeous :)

However she had other ideas and for some reason decided she was in training, and every time I looked at her she was on the move around the arena. So she came in with raised pulses, arena wasn't hard yesterday so she obviously just overdid it.

Pulses were gone again by this morning. We had snow, but not cold, so she has been in the arena, moving about but not too much. No pulses when I last checked, so obviously cold hooves in the snow have helped.

So I presume I don't actively walk her until she can cope with a lot of movement on the sand?
 
She will have a lot of blood going to her feet to resolve the damage she already has, so raised pulses are not an issue unless she's a known laminitis risk. Pulses without soreness are nothing to worry about in feet where the shoes have only just come off.

When you say 'on the move' do you mean running around? Because if she's running around that wouldn't be a reason not to do some steady walking, and if she's walking and walking that would make ten minutes walking in hand pointless.

I know this is easy to say and hard to do, but try not to worry.
 
ycbm said:
She will have a lot of blood going to her feet to resolve the damage she already has, so raised pulses are not an issue unless she's a known laminitis risk. Pulses without soreness are nothing to worry about in feet where the shoes have only just come off.

When you say 'on the move' do you mean running around? Because if she's running around that wouldn't be a reason not to do some steady walking, and if she's walking and walking that would make ten minutes walking in hand pointless.

I know this is easy to say and hard to do, but try not to worry.
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Thank you, I'm not worrying :) I've had enough experiences with pulses to know it is always doom and gloom!

Yesterday she was trotting and cantering, don't know what got into her! She didn't do so much today, no pulses.

Then I will experiment with a bit of tarmac walking the next few days :)
 
I have put some pictures of her hooves in an album on my profile, if anyone could tell me how to transfer onto the thread it would be very much appreciated :)

Should I fill any divots in with hoof paste?

Have been walking for ten minutes on the drive the last few days with no problems. Shoes have been off just short of 2 weeks, I will do some slo-mo tomorrow to see how she is looking, farrier is back on the 9th of January to see how she is looking and whether he needs to adjust anything.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome :)
 
Has she had a serious abscess on the left fore about two months ago? There appear to be exit holes on the hoof and on the sole.

Looking good, except for the disaster of a frog, again in the left fore. It will come back though. Very nice soles, showing the raising cracks at the point of the frog that suggest contact is increasing. And a very strong change of angle on the left fore particularly.

Please ask the farrier not to trim her frogs or sole, if you can do that.
 
ycbm said:
Has she had a serious abscess on the left fore about two months ago? There appear to be exit holes on the hoof and on the sole.

Looking good, except for the disaster of a frog, again in the left fore. It will come back though. Very nice soles, showing the raising cracks at the point of the frog that suggest contact is increasing. And a very strong change of angle on the left fore particularly.

Please ask the farrier not to trim her frogs or sole, if you can do that.
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No abscess that I was aware, gawd, as you know she has been lame, but not abscess lame.

Will ask my farrier not to touch the frogs or sole :)

Should I fill in the holes with hoof paste?
 
No, in wouldn't. The kind of bugs that cause problems love being kept in damp dark places and hate fresh air!

I think she's likely had an abscess. They aren't always that lame with them. There's a hole in the edge of the sole and a matching split line on the hoof a third of the way down.
 
ycbm said:
No, in wouldn't. The kind of bugs that cause problems love being kept in damp dark places and hate fresh air!

I think she's likely had an abscess. They aren't always that lame with them. There's a hole in the edge of the sole and a matching split line on the hoof a third of the way down.
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Ok, thank you.

She was definitely lame at that time, in fact that was when she was nerve blocked and x-rayed, interesting.
 
Demented Elf said:
Ok, thank you.

She was definitely lame at that time, in fact that was when she was nerve blocked and x-rayed, interesting.
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Well I'd be prepared to eat my hat if the lameness wasn't due to an abscess that exited at the sole and leaked or at the very least caused some damage at the coronet, which has since grown down. The line on the outside is clear and it matches positioning of the hole at the edge of the sole at the bottom. Soles grow forward from the heel so it looks further forward now, but it wasn't at the time it happened.

I think you can probably forget about the lameness in that foot at that time being anything that will cause any problems in future.
 
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