Homozygous for tobiano x fewspot?

Spot_the_Risk

Spot_the_Risk

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As the title really! Our fewspot mare (appaloosa x Welsh D) produced a near leopard fill last year by a chesnut section D.

Whenever I see a stallion listed as homozygous for markings, I wonder what he would produce in our mare. As a fewspot crossed with a solid she is likely to throw a spotted (some helpful person on here told me that, and the mare proved them right!) but what do you think a crossing with a homozygous for tobiano stallion would produce?

Maybe I should breed another foal from her just to find out...!
 
Have you tried the Color Calculator? Bit of fun if nothing else, although don't expect to find few spot listed! You will have to put in the mare's base colour and fill in the other info, same with the tobiano, is he a black or bay ?

www.animalgenetics.us
 
Been having this conversation elsewhere regarding claims of Appaloosas being, supposedly homozygous and producing 100% colour, how can anyone claim that when they haven’t even located the genes yet and most App registries insist that non characteristic individuals are bred to one with at least characteristics, so many matings have appaloosa coat patterns contributed by both parents a thing some people forget.

A true few spot on a solid outcross will throw mostly loud leopard and near leopards, which is what you found, spotted blankets, occasional snow-caps, though usually with a mare of that pattern, just varnish, characteristics and rarely a non charateristic solid!

The appaloosa patterns are a lot more complex than other coat patterns and don't lend themselves as a 'whole complex' to Mendels simple inheritance model as would a Tobiano paint. Closed registries together with rules on breeding solid or non characteristics back to a patterned individual do not allow for experimentation in this area, but I am sure that Non Characteristic Appaloosas are capable of throwing limited coat patterns with the help of Chestnut coats and the boost of the sabino gene. Equally though not broadcast, true few spots are capable of throwing solids.

Even with the Tobiano gene there is a minimal form of expression which does not have white on the body so even here claiming a horse will always produce “colour” ( funny calling it coloured when it’s the white that makes it stand out!) may be problematic.

Right soap box is back under the stairs. If you cross her with the paint gene you are probably going to get a tobiano with spots on the white area’s, if you google image pintaloosa you will see what you are likely to get, there are some quite loud results! But bear in mind that the main appaloosa registries will not allow registration if you outcross to paint genes.
 
Could be interesting....! You'd definitely get the tobiano pattern from the homozygous stallion.... and if your mare is a true homozygous fewspot then she will add spots to the mixture...

Could look fab, or could be a real mismatch of markings!!
 
Is it Pintaloosa or Appiano???

The stallion I've used - not a few spot though he's leopard - covered a dun and white coloured mare - and the filly they got was a spotted and coloured - she's dun and white with spots.


On another tack slightly - and sorry for the hijack - seing as you seem to know tons about this...

I've been told crossing my solid chestnut to a chestnut based leopard appy - I could get anything from leopard to plain chestnut or most inbetweens (just not few spot) - so blanket/snowflake etc...

Is that right? And is there any combination that is more likely than the others?

I'm enjoying the uncertaintly a bit, Appy breeding seems to be much more complicated...
 
Hi there,

Just would like to make one comment Francisthedog...you say your mare is Appaloosa x Welsh D? If that is the case then she is NOT a true few spot (more likely a faded out colour) as to be a few spot she HAS to have inherited the LP gene from BOTH parents which she is not going to have done if one was a Welsh D. To be a true few spot both parents have to have been carrying (AND passed on) the spotted gene. You were lucky (50% chance) that she threw a spotted foal and could well do that again for you!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been told crossing my solid chestnut to a chestnut based leopard appy - I could get anything from leopard to plain chestnut or most inbetweens (just not few spot) - so blanket/snowflake etc...

Is that right? And is there any combination that is more likely than the others?

I'm enjoying the uncertaintly a bit, Appy breeding seems to be much more complicated...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh gosh yes the appaloosa patterns are very complicated and are certainly not as simple as other coat colour or pattern genes! But then that’s part of the surprise element in breeding them which is very interesting.

My sister and I have done a lot of research into the inheritance of the coat patterns and the extent and distribution of the white. We have witnessed true few spots that have thrown non characteristic foals; one of these was actually to a blanket appaloosa, just characteristics and just appaloosa varnish so homozygous in the usual context? I would not make that claim nor that an appaloosa would produce 100% colour!! There has not been any practical research done by out crossing to back these claims, so inheritance in the App is pure theory.

There is a very complex relationship between the coat patterns and I would say from observations that the biggest clue lies in looking at the ancestors patterns, and what a horse has already sired or birthed, this can give you more of a clue as what you are likely to get and how much white it will have rather than get hung up with all the Homozygous claims, no one has even found the “gene” yet. I also believe that the non characteristic can contribute especially if from a line of appaloosas and not as a result of an outcross.

If your chestnut is not of appaloosa descent then your best bet is to look for a snow cap (white blanket), with a blanket that extends forward of the hip, that has patterned appaloosas in it’s immediate pedigree. Or a true Fewspot. Look carefully at what it has already foaled/sired. You will have a bit of an advantage with a chestnut in that it is more susceptible to extension in white patterns if they are inherited and if the mare has sabino markings this also seems to have a role to play.

Most of the True Few Spots that I have studied throw loud leopards or near leopards when bred to solids, with the occasional just varnish and rare characteristics and very rare non characteristics. Most of the snow-caps even those that are fully extended and look like few spots mainly throw snow-cap blankets which can be very minimal with a few dribbles of white over the rump. I think that it is this pattern the snow-cap that could be sex linked and be more expressive in males.

When breeding to a leopard or near leopard or even a spotted blanket, you again need to look at the pedigree and progeny, but if you mare is not an appaloosa nothing I have seen so far would suggest you would not get a true few spot but you could get a snow cap, spotted blanket, near leopard, leopard, just the varnish pattern which fades sometimes revealing spots, a characteristic, or a non characteristic. (Varnish could also appear in conjunction with the other coat patterns).

So basically do your research before you choose the stallion if you want to increase the likelyhood of coat patterns.
 
I wasn't actually looking for an appy stallion, but the stallion that ticked the boxes I wanted happened to be an appy...

My mare is chestnut but with a lot of flaxen in her mane/tail not a true plain chestnut - and has white socks etc. from a long line of chestnut mares but her sire was grey, grandsire (Dams sire) was bay - but the mare line has stayed determinedly ginger!

Of his foals that I saw as near yearlings, there was a leopard, and two blankets, and last year they had another 2 blankets, and their first was a blanket. They also have the spotty dun and white foal from the dun and white mother. I think they've only had one that was solid but i'm guessing as he was born black he could spot out later if he fades? There could be a few spot or leopard underneath?

I'd be happy with a chestnut, any markings will just be a bonus...

You can see a little more of his markings here...
100_0454.jpg


And these are both out of the black mare...
080607astiatstud021.jpg
 
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