Hoof experts, some questions...

[HufflyPuffly]

Doodle is still in the midst of her abscess, we thought we'd got there and were on the thrid day of dry poulticing when the most amount of gungy puss came out . So we now have shoes off, and have been hot tubbing and wet poulticing again, we've not had any more puss so will be going back to dry poulticing today.

First question, has anyone had this where more puss seemed to come out with a dry poultice? I know Doodle is 'special' but it does seem odd!

Second part, when we took her other shoe off she has some seperation of the hoof wall in the same place on the other foot and had a small bruise in the same place as the abscess on the other foot. Could the wedges have caused the bruise and then an abscess come from that? I'm not trying to knock the wedges but its curious she has 'injuries' in the same places on her feet, which as she likes to put her weight to the inside it makes sense to me it would have taken more pressure. The part b to this is what could have caused the hoof seperation? I'm treating with some hydrogen peroxide 2/3 times a week now just in case there are nasties lurking, but I'm not sure what exactly has caused the issue? Could it be again the weight to the inside, with shoes putting extra pressure on her hooves? (Never had issues like this before with normal shoes)

Picture of the abscess'y foot after the shoe was removed but before the farrier tidied up the edges:

The outside edge doesn't look too great here either but actually not that bad, it is the edge to the top where quite a cavity has formed. Her none abscessed foot is better than this one, but still has some seperation to the inside edge.

Final question, I want to buy her some hoof boots so I can walk her out. I tried a little amble last night and she's still quite sensitive on stones and landing toe first (which you would expect for the abscess'y foot, but she is preferring toe first on both feet). She's happy on grass and better on the smooth, but our yard and lane are quite stoney until we get to the road and smooth tarmac! Now her feet are longer than wide, but I'm concerned that if I get her boots that are long enough there will be too much movement for the width? I'm looking at the Easyboot Epic and her feet measure about 110-120mm wide and 130-140mm long, so would need the 2 at least but this is freshly trimmed feet measurements, so I'm not sure if I should go for the size up?

Ah why is this one so complicated! Good job she's pretty .

x x

 

[xgemmax]

Cavallo do a slim version of their boots for feet that are longer than they are wide

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Cavallo do a slim version of their boots for feet that are longer than they are wide

I've had a look at the Cavello Trek slim ones but they are even wider than the EasyBoot Epics for the length needed , thank you.

x

 

[ester]

I think the wedges could have caused the issues/abscess, it is changing things and you might have ended up with some necrotic tissue in the hoof which then generated the abscess. It is partly why people aren't surprised if they abscess while transitioning.

Boots - I'm not a pro as have only needed one type/size! The people at Equinepodiatry supplies, hoof bootique, saddlery shop will all happily talk about them with you and suggest what might best work/what would be forgiving fit wise.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Ah ok, well fingers crossed her feet recover quickly!
Yes I think I need to contact the experts as I'm just going round in circles!

x x

 

[supsup]

I'm not really surprised to hear that your horse has a toe first landing, even on the non-abscess hoof. Generally, toe-first landings go together with a weak back of the hoof, which in turn is often present when the horse "needs" wedges (wouldn't need them if the heels and digital cushion where strong).

As for boot recommendations, your measurements are a bit too vague. Try and get measurements that are accurate to the mm, for each of the hooves (they may need different size boots). If you really have hooves that are a full 2cm longer than wide, then I'd suspect that is in part down to a long toe/low heel shape, which may well change if you intend to do some barefoot rehabbing. Even if not, having a side-on picture might be helpful to see how steep/shallow the wall angle is on the hoof, and whether it has any flare. Those things will also be important for picking the right boot model. The shops named above all give good advice on models if you provide them with a bit more information and pictures.

If all you really want is to lead in hand until the abscess is gone, then shoe again, you could just buy some eva foam pads (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/66FIT-Interlocking-Floor-Guard-Peices/dp/B004OW24CM) for a fraction of the price, and tape them on with duct tape for your walks.

 

[SusieT]

is this a cushingoid horse? the separation is quite common with them.

 

[ester]

Yes Susie she is.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I'm not really surprised to hear that your horse has a toe first landing, even on the non-abscess hoof. Generally, toe-first landings go together with a weak back of the hoof, which in turn is often present when the horse "needs" wedges (wouldn't need them if the heels and digital cushion where strong).

As for boot recommendations, your measurements are a bit too vague. Try and get measurements that are accurate to the mm, for each of the hooves (they may need different size boots). If you really have hooves that are a full 2cm longer than wide, then I'd suspect that is in part down to a long toe/low heel shape, which may well change if you intend to do some barefoot rehabbing. Even if not, having a side-on picture might be helpful to see how steep/shallow the wall angle is on the hoof, and whether it has any flare. Those things will also be important for picking the right boot model. The shops named above all give good advice on models if you provide them with a bit more information and pictures.

If all you really want is to lead in hand until the abscess is gone, then shoe again, you could just buy some eva foam pads (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/66FIT-Interlocking-Floor-Guard-Peices/dp/B004OW24CM) for a fraction of the price, and tape them on with duct tape for your walks.

is this a cushingoid horse? the separation is quite common with them.

Well the wedges were never put on for hoof issues, she appeared to have strained one of the ligaments/tendons down the back of her pastern, so they were only put on for lower limb issues rather than hoof ones. However as she has been in shoes for most of her life I don't doubt that she has hoof issues!

Ok interesting, the actual measurements fall within that range, will write them down tonight so I remember them . But yes they are much longer than wide... Will get some more angles tonight. The vet and farrier are both massively against trying her barefoot, but as the oppertunity has arisen then I'd like to try as much as I can to improve her feet whilst the shoes are off.

She is Cushingoid, yes. Not heard of that before, her feet were ok in normal shoes (with respect to the seperation only), but an interesting point! I wonder if a horse with cushings and such wonky feet really could ever go barefoot, maybe the vet and farrier are right! Need to get the abscess sorted first and go from there really.

Thank you for taking the time to reply .

x x

 

[LD&S]

I'm no expert far from it but from what I've read and researched there are very few horses that can't go barefoot though the transition can be much longer with some than others and also the will of the farrier and vet play a large part. Having them open to new ideas is useful, if however they are just see the solution as being a set of shoes you may not get the help and support that would make it possible and more importantly successful.
Have you had a look on the Rockley web site, there might be some ideas there.

 

[missyclare]

I'll probably get zinged for this, but I can tell you what I see. There is a need for a good balanced trim. I can see the cause of the abscess. It is excessive bar, meaning its too high. The bar ramp ends halfway back on the frog. Once the weight and the ground meets the end of that bar ramp, the support from the ramp is lost, then it punches into the hoof. See it? Exactly where the abscess is. Now look at punch on the other side. The wall is also higher than the sole on the sides where the separations are. Note how the act of flaring and separation has also punched back and changed the shape of the sole. It should be round. There is also a toe callous showing imbalance and is feeding the separation on the medial side. All these things hurt the horse. A good trim and remove the insults and allow the hoof to heal without being damaged again. Many think that the bars should be left alone and worn off with movement, but if the horse is lame with an abscess from those bars already, how are you going to do that? You need to manage them and stop the punching into the hoof, so the hoof can heal....then you start moving and the horse getting it right about the bars. You want the abscess to blow cleanly and strongly and be done. That's not going to happen if the insults are still there, causing more damage with every step. Make sense? So a good trim is in order. Boots are not needed. She needs to move and as pitiful as it looks, that's exactly what she needs to do to resolve this. The dry poultice is allowing the hoof to dry up a bit, which makes things stronger and more flexible instead of mushy and flaccid from tubbing it. This is the power that helps to spit that abscess out...with movement. Dry is good. If she's Cushingoid, then a balanced trim is more imperative than ever.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I'm no expert far from it but from what I've read and researched there are very few horses that can't go barefoot though the transition can be much longer with some than others and also the will of the farrier and vet play a large part. Having them open to new ideas is useful, if however they are just see the solution as being a set of shoes you may not get the help and support that would make it possible and more importantly successful.
Have you had a look on the Rockley web site, there might be some ideas there.

Yes I agree, feel a little let down by both the vet and farriers reaction to be honest. They are both fantastic but both not keen on the whole barefoot idea...
I've had a nosey on Rockley it's a great source of info.

I'll probably get zinged for this, but I can tell you what I see. There is a need for a good balanced trim. I can see the cause of the abscess. It is excessive bar, meaning its too high. The bar ramp ends halfway back on the frog. Once the weight and the ground meets the end of that bar ramp, the support from the ramp is lost, then it punches into the hoof. See it? Exactly where the abscess is. Now look at punch on the other side. The wall is also higher than the sole on the sides where the separations are. Note how the act of flaring and separation has also punched back and changed the shape of the sole. It should be round. There is also a toe callous showing imbalance and is feeding the separation on the medial side. All these things hurt the horse. A good trim and remove the insults and allow the hoof to heal without being damaged again. Many think that the bars should be left alone and worn off with movement, but if the horse is lame with an abscess from those bars already, how are you going to do that? You need to manage them and stop the punching into the hoof, so the hoof can heal....then you start moving and the horse getting it right about the bars. You want the abscess to blow cleanly and strongly and be done. That's not going to happen if the insults are still there, causing more damage with every step. Make sense? So a good trim is in order. Boots are not needed. She needs to move and as pitiful as it looks, that's exactly what she needs to do to resolve this. The dry poultice is allowing the hoof to dry up a bit, which makes things stronger and more flexible instead of mushy and flaccid from tubbing it. This is the power that helps to spit that abscess out...with movement. Dry is good. If she's Cushingoid, then a balanced trim is more imperative than ever.

Ok thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts it makes interesting reading. That picture she did need a trim yes as it was just after the shoe was removed by the vet. can I ask where you think the abscess is from that picture? It's come out right in the crevice in the corner, would this still be from the bar?

Here are some pictures of her good foot after shoe came off and she had a trim.

I'm obviously not an expert but thought this foot didn't look too bad. Bonus of she actually looked to walk on it much better today!

This hoof measured exactly 113mm wide and 132mm long. I was stupid enough to have re-poultcied her bad foot before taking either pictures or measurements!

Thanks again for explaining your thoughts to me.

x x

 

[ester]

You do have to be aware that sometimes extra bar material is there because of failings/lack of support elsewhere, particularly frog wise IME. Frank's bars always overgrow when he is frog shedding and I would be cautious as to whether removing much of them would be the best thing.

AH I do have to say I do think I would be led by the horse on this one as to whether she is comfortable enough to go without or not.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

You do have to be aware that sometimes extra bar material is there because of failings/lack of support elsewhere, particularly frog wise IME. Frank's bars always overgrow when he is frog shedding and I would be cautious as to whether removing much of them would be the best thing.

AH I do have to say I do think I would be led by the horse on this one as to whether she is comfortable enough to go without or not.

Well I will be leaving any trimming to my farrier, but can certainly ask him about the bars.
Though I am leaning more towards letting Doodle grow her feet as she wants for the moment, I feel a lot of her issues have come from us interfering and changing her foot balance. I think a break and just giving her a time to have her feet as she's comfortable might be good at the moment. I know this might sound mad, and might not be the best way to transition her to barefoot, but I am trying to get her sound in her limbs first. Not sure that makes any sense lol!

I was all set to buy her boots today, but then she walked in from the field really well on her good bare foot. I'd put a poultice type boot on her bad foot, which although stayed on it did not keep the mud out, so a plan b for tomorrow! Anyway waffling again, and back to going in circles on the boot front lol. If she's not comfy I do want to get her boots, I've had enough of her being uncomfortable , but then no boots will probably help her feet...

 

[ester]

Did you see the horsecrocz that ffion has been using? they wouldn't keep mud out but would could keep plastic bag on that would?

If I were you I would have the conversations with the boot people/work out what would fit/if anything will if you do decide you need them, and if you don't then fab, if you do you will know what to get .

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Yeah they looked really interesting, going to try bag + boot I have tomorrow. But if that doesn't work will order her a croc .

Yes I think that will be the best course of action, fingers crossed there is a boot for her 'special' tooties .

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Bonus pic of her abscess foot, after its trim.

 

[HashRouge]

If it's any help, I have a 23 year old Arab mare with cushings and I don't know if our experience might help at all. She had her shoes taken off when she was 19 and generally does very well without them though she is retired and I do have to be very careful when the summer grass came through. In terms of separation, your mare's feet look very similar to my girl's - it seems to be one of those things I can't do anything about. She has prascend and I try to keep to a low sugar/ high fibre diet as much as possible, but she is a very, very fussy eater so I can't get her diet as "good" as I would like it to be. She won't eat any of the recommended supplements like pro hoof and heaven forbid I try adding mag ox to her feed! I tried for a very long time with various different feeds, mixing all sorts in etc, but it doesn't matter, she just isn't interested. I actually don't feed her at all in the summer as she won't eat anything (more interested in the grass) but in the winter she is more co-operative, and I can get her to eat linseed and formula 4 feet in her feed, but anything else and she won't have it. Because of this her feet probably aren't as good as they could be, even for a cushings horse. But she is generally very happy without shoes on, even on our stony tracks too and from the field. She is also much sounder - she had her shoes taken off initially when she was struggling with arthritis and soft tissue injuries. I actually didn't do any in-hand walking or anything with her to start with, I just let her chill in the field and get used to it. I do think she's so much more comfortable now - I wish I'd taken them off years ago! But it is harder with cushings and I'd be surprised if you ever get rid of that separation. Also, someone might have mentioned this, but abscesses are not unusual for cushings horses and my mare sometimes has a run of them in the Autumn. I find though that without shoes on I can generally leave her alone and they burst and drain on their own without the need for farrier/ poulticing. She has had far fewer since she was established on the prascend though.

 

[Gloi]

I'm another one with a pony with Cushings with almost identical feet to this one. I ride mainly in boots and he is pretty sound like that. He used to get a lot of abscesses but very few since he had his shoes off. He seemed to be prone to getting infection through the nail holes.

 

[WindyStacks]

Get thyself i) over to the barefoot facebook group and ii) a trimmer.

Why not use your usual farrier I hear you ask? Well, because he let the bars get in that state in the first place, the frog is terribly contracted and I could drive a bus through that white line.

Having that enormous gap is going to mean that the outer wall chips like hell as it HEALS. At this point, your farrier/vet/fellow liveries will tell you that your horse "cannot cope" without shoes.

Surround yourself by people who know how to look after barefoot horses as opposed to people who've only ever had shod horses.

 

[ycbm]

That abscess is on what is called the seat of corn. It's called that because so many horses get abscesses (corns) in that spot, often thought to be caused by shoe pressure in shod horses.

In my opinion, your abscess has been caused by a wide open white line at that spot, which is a dietary/metaboloc issue. The Cushings is your problem.

Again in my opinion, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the bars. I almost never trim a bar. I've never had a horse abscess in that spot. Rockley never trim bars at all. They rarely have abscesses at all, and never, to my recollection, in that spot.

In future, I would be asking the farrier/trimmer to dig out as much gunge as he feels happy to do. Use a strong disinfectant on the resulting trench, drying, and back filling with a disinfectant paste that will stay in (keratex putty or red horse paste come to mind, or possibly Stockholm tar.)

 

[HufflyPuffly]

If it's any help, I have a 23 year old Arab mare with cushings and I don't know if our experience might help at all. She had her shoes taken off when she was 19 and generally does very well without them though she is retired and I do have to be very careful when the summer grass came through. In terms of separation, your mare's feet look very similar to my girl's - it seems to be one of those things I can't do anything about. She has prascend and I try to keep to a low sugar/ high fibre diet as much as possible, but she is a very, very fussy eater so I can't get her diet as "good" as I would like it to be. She won't eat any of the recommended supplements like pro hoof and heaven forbid I try adding mag ox to her feed! I tried for a very long time with various different feeds, mixing all sorts in etc, but it doesn't matter, she just isn't interested. I actually don't feed her at all in the summer as she won't eat anything (more interested in the grass) but in the winter she is more co-operative, and I can get her to eat linseed and formula 4 feet in her feed, but anything else and she won't have it. Because of this her feet probably aren't as good as they could be, even for a cushings horse. But she is generally very happy without shoes on, even on our stony tracks too and from the field. She is also much sounder - she had her shoes taken off initially when she was struggling with arthritis and soft tissue injuries. I actually didn't do any in-hand walking or anything with her to start with, I just let her chill in the field and get used to it. I do think she's so much more comfortable now - I wish I'd taken them off years ago! But it is harder with cushings and I'd be surprised if you ever get rid of that separation. Also, someone might have mentioned this, but abscesses are not unusual for cushings horses and my mare sometimes has a run of them in the Autumn. I find though that without shoes on I can generally leave her alone and they burst and drain on their own without the need for farrier/ poulticing. She has had far fewer since she was established on the prascend though.

Thank you for sharing, does sound like its the cushings in fighting against here. Doodle will eat anything lol, so might try some of the supplements and might cut down the grass nuts and see if further diet tweaks can help. Very hopeful that maybe she isn't a lost cause on the barefoot idea!
I knew abscesses were common with cushings but as she's been on her pea send for over a year I was surprised by the sudden appearance. I think the wedges have maybe set this all off, but the underlying cause is the cushings.

I'm another one with a pony with Cushings with almost identical feet to this one. I ride mainly in boots and he is pretty sound like that. He used to get a lot of abscesses but very few since he had his shoes off. He seemed to be prone to getting infection through the nail holes.

Thank you, it's so nice to hear positive stories. She's really quite sound on her good foot until we got stones in the separation, so maybe we will be able to be bare with help from boots.

Get thyself i) over to the barefoot facebook group and ii) a trimmer.

Why not use your usual farrier I hear you ask? Well, because he let the bars get in that state in the first place, the frog is terribly contracted and I could drive a bus through that white line.

Having that enormous gap is going to mean that the outer wall chips like hell as it HEALS. At this point, your farrier/vet/fellow liveries will tell you that your horse "cannot cope" without shoes.

Surround yourself by people who know how to look after barefoot horses as opposed to people who've only ever had shod horses.

Well I have to defend my farrier here, my other two are both bare and doing well. I really feel her lifetime in shoes and then however many weeks in heartbar wedges have been more detrimental than his trimming skills...
He had done a brilliant job for the past 6/7 years with my horses, but all of Doodles issues have meant he isn't keen for her to bare as it will not be straightforward, and he feels not in her best interests which I do understand his (and the vets) point of view!

But asking people who are really knowledgable about barefoot is never a bad thing, I've joined the Facebook group so absorbing all the info there!

That abscess is on what is called the seat of corn. It's called that because so many horses get abscesses (corns) in that spot, often thought to be caused by shoe pressure in shod horses.

In my opinion, your abscess has been caused by a wide open white line at that spot, which is a dietary/metaboloc issue. The Cushings is your problem.

Again in my opinion, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the bars. I almost never trim a bar. I've never had a horse abscess in that spot. Rockley never trim bars at all. They rarely have abscesses at all, and never, to my recollection, in that spot.

In future, I would be asking the farrier/trimmer to dig out as much gunge as he feels happy to do. Use a strong disinfectant on the resulting trench, drying, and back filling with a disinfectant paste that will stay in (keratex putty or red horse paste come to mind, or possibly Stockholm tar.)

Yes the cushings does seem to be a prime candidate here for causing the issue, with maybe the pressure of the wedges tipping it over the edge. Will look into stuff to plug the gap as 'keeping everything crossed' we have had no puss for 2/3 days now, so hopefully the abscess is done now!

Thank you everyone I'm learning so much, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts here!

x x x