Hoof gurus- upright hooves

ihatework said:
Mitchen sounds like you have a good vet.
I wouldn’t turn him away, I’d keep chipping away at his work but I’d probably put eventing on the back burner this year. See if you can get the HPA in better alignment first. I have no strong feelings on whether the horse should be shod/unshod for that process but I do think the wonky balance he has created himself unshod might be telling.
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Alignment back to what it was last summer? But then he was lame when it was aligned like that... that's my dilemma..

My vet doesn't think we should be trying to alter his angles aka lowering the heels as he feels it'll make him sore at the toe... So I'm not too sure what we can actually do to it.

All a bit frustrating!
 
wingedhorse said:
Offer to pay a consultancy fee?
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Oooh yes good idea- I'd be happy to pay something like that. Though his barefoot landing photos are on a lost phone so I would only be able to send new shod landing footage which is annoying.

Thanks for the idea I shall investigate!
 
I still keep going back to the point though- if we are saying this alignment is incorrect and likely to cause issues then we are disputing the whole idea that allowing a horse to self trim and grow the foot he wants is a successful way forward. Essentially we are saying the "man made" hoof, that he had when shod last year, is preferable. Which throws up everything I thought I believed in when it comes to feet/barefoot approach.

With regards to why I posted... I am a massive pessimist. I get so anxious about every decision I do/don't make for my horses, completely paranoid about whether I'm doing the right thing- which is probably the product of historical circumstances. I was also curious as to anyone that had experienced similar- aka a "worse" HPA when the horse has been allowed to grow its own hoof.

The only thing I can be sure of is that the horse is, currently, the happiest and most comfortable he has been. Even if the x rays say otherwise. Its a difficult dilemma.

I'm probably repeating myself... currently my head is spinning with work related stuff :P


ycbm said:
If you had not taken x rays I would be telling you to crack on. But you did. And the x rays tell a very, very different story. And might yet prevent you from joining the ranks of people with retired or PTS eight year olds.

As I said above, you trust your vet, follow his advice. Mine would be telling you not to increase the pressures on those changing feet and event that horse this year if you want him to stay sound.


I think you need to ask yourself a question as to why you posted this thread. You have a vet you trust, yet you needed the support of other inexpert people on this forum before you were prepared to follow his advice. Why? If you have doubts, listen to them.
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Michen said:
I still keep going back to the point though- if we are saying this alignment is incorrect and likely to cause issues then we are disputing the whole idea that allowing a horse to self trim and grow the foot he wants is a successful way forward.
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No we aren't. We are saying that your horse is a work in progress, who has made good progress, but on the strength of his x rays is not yet ready to be shod, studded and jumped fast on uneven ground.

It's not the current situation which is the concern, it's your plan to radically increase the amount of stress those feet will take by eventing them this season.
 
Your horse is sound and happy - I would work away. We can get ourselves too precious about issues when like us not all horses are the same shape. If he is sound and work built up at a suitable pace there is no reason he will not stay sound or that he has an underlying issue. He is upright - not all horses are perfect. You can probably slowly adjust the angle minutely but how many horses have a perfect HPA?
I'd crack on and monitor. Eventing is not that stressful at amateur level..
 
SusieT said:
Your horse is sound and happy - I would work away. We can get ourselves too precious about issues when like us not all horses are the same shape. If he is sound and work built up at a suitable pace there is no reason he will not stay sound or that he has an underlying issue. He is upright - not all horses are perfect. You can probably slowly adjust the angle minutely but how many horses have a perfect HPA?
I'd crack on and monitor. Eventing is not that stressful at amateur level..
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When I say the plan was for him to go eventing, I’m meaning an event a month at 80cm on good ground so perhaps 4/5 this season depending on what sort of summer we have (I don’t, or have ever run my horse on bad/hard ground). He’s about 85% there fitness wise for xc and is already schooling, jumping once a week, etc etc so there isn’t going to be some intense increase in work, other than longer canters out hacking so longer routes.

It’s so hard to ever know what to do with them, I’ve spent all evening reading about how their skeleton develops- I had no idea that geldings on average take 6 months longer than mares to mature! The more I read and learn the more I think riding them at all compromises them so much that you wouldn’t know where to draw a line.

I will see how things go and monitor, I know him well enough to pick up when something isn’t right and if plans need to change they will change- I will take this week by week. It’s not going to be me in the saddle anyway unless I miraculously get my nerve back. Regardless of how things go it will be interesting to re x Ray in say six months and see if, as predicted by some users on here and my vet/farrier, his angles have relaxed again.

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate every viewpoint even if they are sometimes hard to hear- but that’s the beauty of HHO!
 
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Michen said:
When I say the plan was for him to go eventing, I’m meaning an event a month at 80cm on good ground so perhaps 4/5 this season depending on what sort of summer we have (I don’t, or have ever run my horse on bad/hard ground). He’s about 85% there fitness wise for xc and is already schooling, jumping once a week, etc etc so there isn’t going to be some intense increase in work, other than longer canters out hacking so longer routes.

It’s so hard to ever know what to do with them, I’ve spent all evening reading about how their skeleton develops- I had no idea that geldings on average take 6 months longer than mares to mature! The more I read and learn the more I think riding them at all compromises them so much that you wouldn’t know where to draw a line.

I will see how things go and monitor, I know him well enough to pick up when something isn’t right and if plans need to change they will change- I will take this week by week. It’s not going to be me in the saddle anyway unless I miraculously get my nerve back. Regardless of how things go it will be interesting to re x Ray in say six months and see if, as predicted by some users on here and my vet/farrier, his angles have relaxed again.

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate every viewpoint even if they are sometimes hard to hear- but that’s the beauty of HHO!
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I think that sounds like a sensible plan.
I’m also a massive worrier / pessimist and I’ve decided that the only thing you can be guaranteed of with horses is that something will go wrong! They have to be one of the most fragile animals on the planet, or is it like you say, the fact that we ride them / keep them as we do, which makes them this way!! Best not to think about it in too much detail me thinks!!
 
Michen said:
When I say the plan was for him to go eventing, I’m meaning an event a month at 80cm on good ground so perhaps 4/5 this season depending on what sort of summer we have (I don’t, or have ever run my horse on bad/hard ground). He’s about 85% there fitness wise for xc and is already schooling, jumping once a week, etc etc so there isn’t going to be some intense increase in work, other than longer canters out hacking so longer routes.

It’s so hard to ever know what to do with them, I’ve spent all evening reading about how their skeleton develops- I had no idea that geldings on average take 6 months longer than mares to mature! The more I read and learn the more I think riding them at all compromises them so much that you wouldn’t know where to draw a line.

I will see how things go and monitor, I know him well enough to pick up when something isn’t right and if plans need to change they will change- I will take this week by week. It’s not going to be me in the saddle anyway unless I miraculously get my nerve back. Regardless of how things go it will be interesting to re x Ray in say six months and see if, as predicted by some users on here and my vet/farrier, his angles have relaxed again.

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate every viewpoint even if they are sometimes hard to hear- but that’s the beauty of HHO!
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sounds sensible to me. it's not a huge ask, or huge stress and he doesnt need to be racing fit to do it.............there comes a point (to my mind) when you simply need to know if your horse, can horse!
 
Don't get too hung up on reading about the maturity of the skeleton. The legs stop growing quite early, it is the back and neck that are last to mature, which is why putting a heavy weight onto a young horse is not a good idea. Our "traditional" way of some ground work at 2 ish, backing at 3ish + and then riding away/schooling and light work at 4 has stood the test of time unless there the animal is hugely immature and there is an obvious reason not to break in. And I know of plenty of horses that have been broken in a 2 and go on to work and live well into their 20s.

Lots of horses manage without perfect conformation. Years ago when you could go round the stables at Badminton on dressage day I was amazed at some of the weird and wonderful conformation faults of those Advanced Event horses and one of the soundest animals I knew which raced and did endurance well into its 20s had the worst twisted foot I have ever seen. No vet would have passed it.

I think it would be a good idea to send the X rays to Nick at Rockley and by all means pay a consultation fee! Then carry on gently following the vet's advice. After all as you say, you want to know if it can be a horse and do things!
 
Thanks OH. I have emailed Nic so fingers crossed. I know she will want the barefoot footage of his landings which I now don’t have and can’t re take as he’s been shod but an opinion on the x rays would be very helpful.

I guess those horses may have always had that sort of confirmation whereas boggles is a new change, but as my vet said he will probably change angles again as other things change.

I will tick along and see how he goes, this would be a very different conversation if the horse felt like he did last year or appeared to be going backwards in any way but he’s quite the opposite.

Will update on Rockley opinion if I’m able to get one :)
Orangehorse said:
Don't get too hung up on reading about the maturity of the skeleton. The legs stop growing quite early, it is the back and neck that are last to mature, which is why putting a heavy weight onto a young horse is not a good idea. Our "traditional" way of some ground work at 2 ish, backing at 3ish + and then riding away/schooling and light work at 4 has stood the test of time unless there the animal is hugely immature and there is an obvious reason not to break in. And I know of plenty of horses that have been broken in a 2 and go on to work and live well into their 20s.

Lots of horses manage without perfect conformation. Years ago when you could go round the stables at Badminton on dressage day I was amazed at some of the weird and wonderful conformation faults of those Advanced Event horses and one of the soundest animals I knew which raced and did endurance well into its 20s had the worst twisted foot I have ever seen. No vet would have passed it.

I think it would be a good idea to send the X rays to Nick at Rockley and by all means pay a consultation fee! Then carry on gently following the vet's advice. After all as you say, you want to know if it can be a horse and do things!
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I think from what you have written, Michen, that you are finding my counter view useful, so while that's the case I'll continue to give it. If you tell me to stop, I will.

I think people, maybe because they don't event themselves, are underestimating the step up in work that it is to take a horse which has only been show jumping ten fences at a time on prepared surfaces at slow speeds and send it a mile and a half across country over twenty five or thirty jumps where 'prepared take offs and landings' usually means 'packed with stone just under the surface grass'. Plus the additional work cross country training to get it there.

Aside from anything else, doubling the jumping speed will, I think physics says, quadruple the force that the lead foot is hitting the ground with (with a pedal bone wrongly angled, increasing the risk that the tip will hit the floor and bruise). Double the force, double or treble the jumping efforts, three or four times the distance cantered/galloped on a normal hack, less helpful surface......

Nothing would please me more than to be wrong to suggest erring on the side of caution and to see you having great success with him. But with a six year old with still changing feet, with history of bruised feet and multiple-foot lameness before he had even done any real work at five, nothing will make me agree with people encouraging you to increase his workload so much this spring either.
 
i think too much is being made of the term eventing here, its like the difference between tootling round elementary and working a horse at PSG...........both dressage, but one is rather more strenuous.

80cm is not burghley, doesnt require burghley prep or pace and should be well within his capabilities at a moderate fitness level, its basically a good canter round (and i teach many eventers who would agree).................you arent going to have to increase work level by 500% just to be ready is what im getting at.

OP i think you have a sensible approach.
 
ester said:
Michen might the footage/pics be on fb chat if you search?
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Ooh yes I could save that one onto phone from fb I think, though it’s such poor quality I feel a bit embarrassed sending that 😂 I’d taken a much better one outdoors since annoyingly. Still will give the general idea I think?
 
Hallo2012 said:
i think too much is being made of the term eventing here, its like the difference between tootling round elementary and working a horse at PSG...........both dressage, but one is rather more strenuous.

80cm is not burghley, doesnt require burghley prep or pace and should be well within his capabilities at a moderate fitness level, its basically a good canter round (and i teach many eventers who would agree).................you arent going to have to increase work level by 500% just to be ready is what im getting at.

OP i think you have a sensible approach.
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This is nothing much to do with fitness and everything to do with jumping biomechanics.

As everyone knows, jumping is the only activity where horses land with their entire weight forehand-down into only one foot.

Any increase in height, speed, or solidity and unlevelness of the surface the foot is landing on multiplies the forces by square of the increase (if my physics doesn't desert me).

Eventing not only increases at least two of those but also multiplies the number of consecutive efforts by three, (after doing a dressage and sj), bringing mental and physical tiredness and repetitive strain into the equation as well.

To do that on a horse you know has a pedal bone whose tip is angled to dig into the sole, who has already suffered from front foot bruising, is undeniably to take a risk.

Michen will probably get away with it. I hope so.
 
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I'm really resisting launching into a mechanics discussion that I know will be supremely dull for 99.9% of people :D :p
 
I was given a warmblood with a box hoof / club foot. He'd been shod all his life, once I got him I took his shoes off and he was barefoot trimmed from then on. Amazingly after a while his hoof eventually became 'normal'. IMO the shoeing had caused it or certainly made it worse.
 
Haha, well it is very interesting :p

Horses are fascinating because they have very little capacity for elastic energy recovery when moving - they can't superflex their backs like cats do (and dogs at high speed), or flex their limbs in stride like we do, so they rely overwhelmingly on not losing momentum through ground contact, like a stone skipping across water. And for that it's all about geometry - their movement, particularly at gallop, is like a series of vectors. The big role of their muscles is to be able to hold their bodies up and accurately place their limbs in a geometrically efficient way.

I personally believe that reason the angles in their limbs change a fair bit between age 2 and 8ish is because their bones compensate temporarily to give efficient geometry while they are their muscles are still developing, until the muscles have more precise control of the limbs and then the angles start to drift back to something more preferable. But that's just my theory - there are no academic studies that I'm aware of that look at that.

Jumping meanwhile is an entirely different kettle of fish with far more simple force equations.
 
if that was my horse and i had doubts, i would give him another 2 years minimum to mature and rectify himself by nature, yes i would ride and school him but not for comps, i would school him for his self, school and train for the benefit of the horse, very gently to reach a point where the whole horse rectifies itself and reaches a level of fitness as a consequence of quiet thorough gymnastics and not as an aim to compete.

he looks very immature to me.

take photos now and then at ten years, you will see a different horse.

.
 
I am no expert on X rays, but I also has an immature 5yo some years back. He was never lame, had no issues at all other than being weak and immature.

My vet advised not eventing until he was 6 years old.

We did that. Loads of relaxed hacking, some BS (only to 90cm initially) and general schooling. I was glad we did that as the horse went from 16hh to 16.3 in just over a year. I can't imagine he would have been strong in himself whilst growing like that.

To me the extra year was well worthwhile just to let him grow into himself. When we did event all the groundwork was done, he was well ready. He was sound and working BE to Nov, SJ to Newc, hunt, team chase and an all round good egg until he was 17.

If I had a horse who had already had mysterious lameness and who was immature in frame then I would give the summer to mature slowly.

With dodgy X rays I would also pay a consultation fee to Rockly.
 
That’s essentially what’s been done, the horse was five last year, did next to nothing- lameness found, time off and bought back into work over winter. Now about to turn six, sound albeit with different hoof angles that he’s grown himself.



Red-1 said:
I am no expert on X rays, but I also has an immature 5yo some years back. He was never lame, had no issues at all other than being weak and immature.

My vet advised not eventing until he was 6 years old.

We did that. Loads of relaxed hacking, some BS (only to 90cm initially) and general schooling. I was glad we did that as the horse went from 16hh to 16.3 in just over a year. I can't imagine he would have been strong in himself whilst growing like that.

To me the extra year was well worthwhile just to let him grow into himself. When we did event all the groundwork was done, he was well ready. He was sound and working BE to Nov, SJ to Newc, hunt, team chase and an all round good egg until he was 17.

If I had a horse who had already had mysterious lameness and who was immature in frame then I would give the summer to mature slowly.

With dodgy X rays I would also pay a consultation fee to Rockly.
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I know you're getting lots of mixed views but I guess that's the beauty of posing the question - you get lots of food for thought and ultimately, you go with what suits you best!

My only observation at this point is that shoeing will do a couple of things. 1. It prevents the hoof from 'spreading' as the horse lands on it, thus restricting its shock-absorbing properties. The hoof comes to a dead stop, which is intensified during jumping. Also, hooves are trimmed into a 'conventional' shape prior to shoeing and therefore the horse is prevented from growing the hoof it needs. You can event at lower levels quite comfortably without shoes and I'd want a horse like this to work barefoot so it could continue to improve the functionality of the foot, which it can't do in shoes.

A comfortable horse will ALWAYS land heel first and you can monitor this continually if it's barefoot. I take pretty much no notice of most other things other than this (I mean, not exclusively, as I check for signs of thrush etc but it's pretty much all I cast an eye over on a regular basis).
 
Michen said:
That’s essentially what’s been done, the horse was five last year, did next to nothing- lameness found, time off and bought back into work over winter. Now about to turn six, sound albeit with different hoof angles that he’s grown himself.
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Michen, I think Red thinks your picture in your opening post is of a five year old, not a six year old. That should in itself tell you something. That's no doubt you have improved him massively from when you bought him, but he is still very immature and weak looking for his age.
 
I have had another look at his photo - yes he is very immature and has lots of growing and filling out yet. So ride him, if vet agrees, and take it slowly this year.
 
ycbm said:
Michen, I think Red thinks your picture in your opening post is of a five year old, not a six year old. That should in itself tell you something. That's no doubt you have improved him massively from when you bought him, but he is still very immature and weak looking for his age.
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I think you might be more active on this thread than even I am C!

Will keep everyone updated especially if I get a response from Rockley re consult.
 
Michen said:
I think you might be more active on this thread than even I am C!

Will keep everyone updated especially if I get a response from Rockley re consult.
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As I said earlier, I'll stop the moment you tell me my comments aren't welcome. I think everything's been said now anyway, by various people. On balance, more in favour of you cracking on than not.

Out of interest, are you hoping to recover your gumption to ride him, or do you mean to sell him? (I'm not in the market, in case you think I'm fishing.)
 
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