Hoof X-rays: continue barefoot or put shoes back on?

ester said:
I thought you could maybe do both together, just possibly tricky finding the best bit option while introducing other new kit.

I wasn't suggesting it as a long term solution, just that when re-establishing the basics/correct way of going it might be a) possible, b) better to take it out of the equation.

Fwiw frank much prefers a single joint over a french link and hates a lozenge but will also go in anything, just a bit differently so his definition of hate is lower than others.

There are a lot of options out there now, almost too many! A couple of friends have had fitting clinics and been pleased with the results.
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Ah yeah OK - I was thinking more of long term/permanent solutions. I agree, there are too many options out there! I didn't think of fitting clinics, I had asked for advice from the Bit Bank but I suppose without seeing how the horse goes themselves, how would they know?

I did go through a phase of lunging him in just a rope halter, but our school is massive and spooky (to Bruce...) and he broke free, galloped madly around the school, wound himself up even more and when I eventually caught him he was a sweating, snorting, rearing mess. So I went back to a bridle. I now use an Equi-Ami lunge cavesson with bit clips - so I can work him on the Equi-Ami from the bit, but not interfere with the action with the lunge line, which I clip to the cavesson. He only really does his gurning when you take up a contact; so it's the action of the bit that he doesn't like, not the fact he has it in his mouth, I guess.

Deffo will try a single jointed one to start with, as I have access to one that I can try; then will consider a fitting clinic if no joy; and can look at bitless if I'm getting nowhere.
 
ponyparty said:
Collected pinworm treatment and administered first dose yesterday. Consists of:
Panacur 5 day
Ivermectin wormer administered rectally x 1
Ivermectin "paint" - applied after washing the area.

However, I've been applying Camrosa ointment for a week now - so he had already stopped rubbing his tail, his skin is healing and the hair is growing back. I will be VERY interested to see if there are any dead pinworms in his poo, or if (as I suspect) I've just wasted £80 on worming treatment for a horse with nothing more than sweet itch...!!

I can't get hold of the remedial farrier I want, he was meant to phone back last Thursday/Friday and hasn't. I know he's really busy and not technically meant to be taking on new clients, but he did say he'd sort something out as I was a vet recommendation.
In the meantime, my barefoot trimmer has recovered from his illness and will be in the area this Sunday - so I'm going to have him look at Bruce and see what he thinks. If he gives me some good options, which the vet will consider, I'll try that path first. If he agrees that for the sake of Bruce's other problems, I should just get him shod, then I'll harangue this remedial farrier with renewed vigour. His feet are not overly long in the meantime, so he's not desperate for a trim. I actually think it might have been good for them to just have a rest and let a bit of hoof wall grow down. They're looking a bit raggedy, but nothing that a walk up and down the lane wouldn't sort out.

He is going well on the lunge - he still works hollow to begin with but I find the longer I work him, the more he relaxes (I found this ridden as well, it always took him a while to loosen up and start relaxing down into the contact). I'm currently doing, for example:
10 mins warm-up in walk
5 mins trot with lots of transitions down to walk and back again
5 mins trot/canter, lots of transitions
10 mins in Equi-Ami in walk/trot
10 mins cool down in walk
Does this all sound ok to you guys, am I on the right track? Equi-ami is only to be used for 10 mins and it's a big ask considering he's been out of proper work for some time now; I've got it on a fairly loose setting, I'm not asking him to bring his head in but rather down and out.

Last night, as someone had conveniently left poles in the school, I also did some zig zag poles, trotting poles on the ground and raised at alternate ends. Just a couple of times of each, to keep him interested. He certainly seemed to enjoy the pole work more - pricked his ears forward and looked interested, bless him! Will try and incorporate that every other day or two.

We have a classically trained, international grand prix dressage trainer coming to the yard this weekend running clinics so I'm going to have a groundwork session with him on Sunday hopefully, get a few exercises I can be doing with B to encourage him to work over his back properly.

Bitting - I've now tried the Myler ported loose ring and eggbutt snaffle from the Bit Bank, I'd say he goes marginally better in the eggbutt but still does his usual gurning. He hasn't got his tongue over the bit in either... yet, but still not ideal; if he's resisting the bit/uncomfortable in his mouth, this will be reflected in head/neck carriage and travel down his back. I'm going to try a single jointed Happy Mouth next (as someone has one they can lend me), any other suggestions welcome! I prefer French link as I think they're kinder but... some horses do go better in a single jointed bit, and he does have a dainty little mouth. So we shall see.

Feeling more positive this week anyway, thanks everyone for all your input so far x
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I understand about the shoes you have to do what is right at the time, as for the itching one of my horses only rubs his tail and only in the summer I think its just an irritation from bites and the heat, as he never rubs his mane or anywhere else, I put wonder gel on the top of his tail and it does stop it but you have to do it everyday, I cant use strong products on his skin he is allergic to so many things so I just stick to what I know his ok with.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I understand about the shoes you have to do what is right at the time, as for the itching one of my horses only rubs his tail and only in the summer I think its just an irritation from bites and the heat, as he never rubs his mane or anywhere else, I put wonder gel on the top of his tail and it does stop it but you have to do it everyday, I cant use strong products on his skin he is allergic to so many things so I just stick to what I know his ok with.
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Thank you. And yeah - last summer he rubbed his forelock as well as his tail, which makes me suspect sweet itch/bite irritation. I am kicking myself for not just sticking with Camorsa ointment, which I know works and he's not allergic to. But he has had pinworm previously (or so I've been led to believe...), and it's renowned for recurring and being an absolute beast to get rid of; so I guess that's why the vet thinks it's that.

Guess I'll find out when I see his poo later? How long do these wormers take to work, I wonder?
 
Don't expect to see any worms. I didn't, and yet I am convinced mine had pinworm, because his itchiness definitely decreased after treatment, and he's never been particularly itchy otherwise. As I mentioned above, I did double dose Pyrantel, then a week later the Panacur guard. By the time I finished the 5 day Panacur (and had washed his tail area to get the ivermectin residue off), he stopped being itchy. Previously, he'd try to back into me in the field to solicit a bum scratch a few times! Other days he'd seem ok, until I groomed him around his tail area, and doing that would then seem to make him more and more itchy (maybe like scratching a mosquito bite?).
I would do the 5-day, give him a good wash and see what he's like after. BTW, how did you manage to spend £80 on the wormers? I'm afraid you may have been unlucky there! I spent £30 for the double pyrantel plus Panacur, and another £9 for two tubes of Mole valley ivermectin (which was enough to do the "ivermectin wash" thing around the anus. Vet told me proper ivermectin wash was difficult to get my hands on, and just to take a regular wormer).

BTW, I also washed all my grooming kit in Virkon S, and sprayed a few places around the yard with it that I'd seen him rub his bum on (fence posts).
 
supsup said:
Don't expect to see any worms. I didn't, and yet I am convinced mine had pinworm, because his itchiness definitely decreased after treatment, and he's never been particularly itchy otherwise. As I mentioned above, I did double dose Pyrantel, then a week later the Panacur guard. By the time I finished the 5 day Panacur (and had washed his tail area to get the ivermectin residue off), he stopped being itchy. Previously, he'd try to back into me in the field to solicit a bum scratch a few times! Other days he'd seem ok, until I groomed him around his tail area, and doing that would then seem to make him more and more itchy (maybe like scratching a mosquito bite?).
I would do the 5-day, give him a good wash and see what he's like after. BTW, how did you manage to spend £80 on the wormers? I'm afraid you may have been unlucky there! I spent £30 for the double pyrantel plus Panacur, and another £9 for two tubes of Mole valley ivermectin (which was enough to do the "ivermectin wash" thing around the anus. Vet told me proper ivermectin wash was difficult to get my hands on, and just to take a regular wormer).

BTW, I also washed all my grooming kit in Virkon S, and sprayed a few places around the yard with it that I'd seen him rub his bum on (fence posts).
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Thanks for that - interesting that you didn't see any worms. I discussed with the vet and she recommended we try this approach first. That is very disappointing about price, if I'd realised I could pick some of these things up from a country store rather than buy from the vets at inflated prices, I would have done that instead :( now I'm wondering about the double pyrantel too, whether I ought to give him that as well, a week after the Panacur... Off to google if I can get it anywhere else! He did have a rectal ivermectin wormer too - a whole tube of it up the bum.

I've washed one of his rugs and the other will be done when the 5 days is up, and will be Virkoning surfaces at the weekend - he is in a sweet itch rug constantly and vet seemed to think it unlikely that eggs would transfer to surfaces as he is unable to come into direct contact with any; I'm just going to keep washing his rugs regularly, weekly probably. Hadn't thought about grooming kit, I'll have to Virkon that too... What fun!

His butt is looking better every day and the hair growing back nicely, so that's something at least...
 
Fingers crossed it will do the job... In case it does turn out to be a sweet itch thing in the end, I find the biteback products (particularly the sweet relief cream) to be quite economic and effective. A few friends of mine on the yard have horses with full SI and after years of trying all sorts have settled on this stuff. I use it on sheath and in ears against midges/ear biting flies on my gelding. A 500g tub costs £12 and lasts me the entire summer (for the smallish amounts I need. The full-on SI horses need more.). Definitely cheaper than a similar amount of camrosa ointment.
 
Ooh thanks for the tip supsup - will have to try that stuff. Maybe once he's all healed up and hair has grown back. The only thing is, he's also allergic to lots of products! Neem oil being one of them. Doesn't look like there is Neem in that one though, so worth a try if it can save me money. My poor bank balance at the moment :(
 
Update: Trimmer came out yesterday. I was hoping for a definitive answer - I got lots of information but probably more questions than answers!

I'll try to remember all the key points:

- Bruce's feet are looking amazing, compared to the first time trimmer saw them
- He is walking fine on flat concrete, but still picks his way over challenging surfaces - our yard surface is amongst the most challenging type, concrete/rubble so trimmer agrees he should be booted to cross this... although less challenging surfaces e.g. just a bit of gravel etc should be OK and he should be asked to cross them.
- Trimmer agrees it would be a shame to nail shoes on now, after such a massive improvement, but that equally Bruce is under the vet and insurance company are involved so I need to take vet advice. Even if I put shoes back on him now, we can take them off again and his feet would still be much better than when trimmer first saw him. If I do go down shoeing route, get farrier to use extra thin clenches and choose farrier very carefully, use one who will work with me for the aim of taking shoes back off.
- Trimmer is going to look into alternative shoeing options and try to find a local contact for me e.g. glue on shoes, or a sort of resin shoe which they paint on in layers and then just trim off x weeks later as the hoof grows.
- Vet originally said that 6 weeks of working B in Equi Ami and he should be ok to get saddle fitter back out and start ridden work. I'm not going to, for various reasons, but the point is that vet seemed to think it's going to be a short rehab time. Whether this is too optimistic, I don't know. Anyway, trimmer said for such a short rehab it would be a shame to put shoes back on - if it were going to take 6 months, then maybe worth it.
- He also said that I should speak to my vet - explain to vet how much the hooves have improved, show comparison photos of Bruce's feet when he had retracted soles, severe bruising, which had abscessed. This is still growing out - you can see the discolouration of the sole, it has nearly grown out but he is still sensitive in that area. He just needs time - and stimulus - to grow new sole.
- If I'm to keep him barefoot, he's recommended trying to get an area of pea shingle for him. I don't think this'll happen, what livery owner would want to do that? Even if they agreed I'd have to pay for it myself and what if I then moved? So I don't know how practical that'll be. Will have to see.

I took some photos yesterday after the trim, my lovely boyfriend will put them next to old photos in photoshop later and I'll post them then so easy to compare.
Will be interesting to compare when I first took shoes off, to when trimmer first saw B, to now.

So - no answers really! I think the option I want to go for is temporary, non invasive i.e. glue on or other alternative shoes, if vet will agree to it. But if not, then I think I will just get him shod, as it will only be short term and trimmer is happy that we will be able to get his feet back fairly easily. He's growing good quality hoof down, just need the crap stuff to finish growing out and he'd have lovely feet.
 
Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue.
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)
 
ester said:
Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue.
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)
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I agree you need to look at the bigger picture and do what is going to be best and easiest to get right at this stage.
Also the rehab is not just 6 weeks, the 6 weeks lunging is just the start, the whole rehab will take as long as it takes and to a degree will be a lifelong commitment, I think your vet has not made that very clear and your trimmer is being too literal in her interpretation or lacks understanding of how long it can take to build up the body correctly.
 
ester said:
Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue.
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)
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Thanks ester - have sent a link about the easyshoe performance to my trimmer.
I'm thinking it'll probably just be easier to shoe him for now... as long as I choose my farrier wisely then hopefully his feet won't be too bad when I take the shoes back off again! So annoying when you see how good they're looking though. Still - feet are easier to fix than spine, so got to focus on that really I guess?!
 
be positive said:
I agree you need to look at the bigger picture and do what is going to be best and easiest to get right at this stage.
Also the rehab is not just 6 weeks, the 6 weeks lunging is just the start, the whole rehab will take as long as it takes and to a degree will be a lifelong commitment, I think your vet has not made that very clear and your trimmer is being too literal in her interpretation or lacks understanding of how long it can take to build up the body correctly.
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I fully agree BP - I don't for a second believe that 6 weeks of lunging in an Equi Ami is going to cure my horse! And do realise that it'll be a lifelong commitment, ensuring he's working correctly to keep that spine elongated.
The vet is Italian so I think the language barrier doesn't help, but he did say he saw no reason why he shouldn't be ridden after steroid injections and 6 weeks rehab on the lunge in Equi-Ami.
I dont even particularly believe that the Equi Ami is the best thing long term, hence why I'm also doing groundwork clinics and looking at other forms of exercise that can help. I'm still doing the Equi Ami too though.

I think unless I can quickly find a farrier who can put these fancy rubber/plastic shoes on, then I'm just going to get the best possible recommendation and go with traditional shoes. A shame that I can't get hold of Carl Wain, I know he's chocka though and not meant to be taking on new clients so I don't really blame him! Just don't want a farrier who is going to undo all my good work over the last nearly 6 months :(
 
Well, Bruce had shoes put back on his fronts on Friday - used Harvey Lymer in the end on a recommendation.
He put on shoes that are slightly wider at the heel, with two toe clips and a bevel on the toe to keep the breakover short.
He did say that we can try barefoot again at a later date, his soles are still pretty soft and we need to work on concavity.

Working him in this heat has been torture for both of us, I'm doing it either early morning or late evening but I'm exhausted from it all, it's no fun being pregnant in the heat :( hope it breaks soon, I am so fed up of being hot and sweaty and it's making me so grumpy!

Vet said he will reassess for steroid injections in about a week - but I'm not convinced it's safe to give them to him, his neck felt a bit cresty again last night! HOW? He is getting probably 2 hours max turnout, muzzled, soaked hay only, topped up with oat straw chop (using TopChop Zero at the moment but switching to Honeychop this week as he's finding the TopChop too palatable and scoffing it too fast!). I'm watching him like a hawk.

He has been sweating in his stable in his sweet itch rug, so I bought a lighter fly rug - clearly doesn't keep the midges away from his tail head as the two night's he's had that on, he's lad little scabs on his tail the next day. I can't win!

I've also wormed now with Pyrantel (as well as all the other wormers, washing his bum regularly, washing his rugs weekly, virkoning surfaces etc...) and the scabs are still appearing so I cannot believe it can be pinworm... SURELY..?!

Apparently the plonker got cast on Saturday too, I wasn't there and the girls on the yard managed to pull him over. He's not done that before! He stayed calm, I'm told, and is none the worse for it (as far as I can see). I haven't asked him to do much since, to be fair, as it's been too hot - so next time I pop him on the lunge will be monitoring closely.

Please tell me that one day I won't feel totally stressed out about this horse!!
 
Further update:

Vet came out to reassess on Friday, and also take blood for adiponectin test for EMS. He assessed Bruce on the lunge and said that generally he is very happy with his progress. He is building up condition and is working correctly in the Equi-Ami. However, he is not stepping under fully with his right hind; we have started him on Danilon (1 per day) and I am to continue working him, then vet is going to reassess in 3 weeks. If he is then moving correctly, we take him off Danilon and reassess without it - and if not then further investigative work will be done to locate where the source of pain is. Kissing spines is often a secondary condition that is caused by an issue further down. Just hope we can get to the bottom of it, treat it and get him back to full health.

Bruce has felt a bit flat at times, so vet has advised me to start him on Equitop Myoplast or equivalent. My local feed store had NAF M Power on special offer this weekend so I got that instead, my understanding being that it does a similar job. He's also advised me to reduce the work on the lunge to 3 times per week, but higher intensity/for longer in the Equi Ami. I gace him the weekend off (mainly because it was too hot for me to function!) and will recommence the rehab program tonight.

So, progress and feeling positive, but also some doubts over his hind leg soundness - and await the EMS test result.

I'm moving him to a new yard in the next few weeks too, with hard standing turnout pens so he can go out and move around without being on grass. Their paddocks are also much smaller and the grass isn't as rich (well it's all dead at the moment anyway!) so hoping he can also have some normal turnout too.
 
ester said:
Well not buying the myoplast was the right decision!
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Why so? I've read mixed reviews to be fair... Vet's reasoning is to help support the build up of muscle/topline, without upping the hard feed/calories too much.
I have had a google and a look at some old threads on here, can't really find much about the NAF stuff I've bought... the myoplast is just spirulina and sugar, I believe?
Knowing what a fussy so-and-so Bruce is, and having tasted spirulina myself (I used to put it in my smoothies - BLEURGH) I didn't want to risk spending that amount of money on something he probably wouldn't eat.
 
Why would you want to give him that much sugar when you don't need to.

Dr Marlin I think did a nice comparison of oats v. linseed v. spirulina and how small an amount of each you would have to feed.
https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMar...t®-and-spirulina:-separating/594424007428491/

It seems baffling why vets are so keen on it to me anyway.

What else were you feeding supplement wise currently as the NAF one has quite a lot of ingredients/minerals.
 
Well, quite... Espcially in a potentially EMS horse. I considered feeding pure spirulina but the taste is so strong, I just know he wouldn't accept it.

He's on Thunderbrooks Daily Essentials and a sprinkle of salt currently.

I haven't started the NAF supplement yet, his first dose would be tomorrow. I think I need to do more reading into this, if the same (or better) results can be achieved with linseed, what is the point of all this fancy, expensive, unpalatable nonsense?!

I think I have some linseed left in a feed bin in my garage... how long does it keep? I'd be reticent to start feeding oats, are they not terrribly heating? Or has this also been disproven (I've had people tell me that linseed is heating when it's been nothing of the sort...).
 
Sigh. Why don't I just set fire to a wad of £20 notes?

Wonder if the feed store will accept a return. I think I'll just go back to adding micronised linseed to his feed.

ETA - thanks ester!
 
Bruce has "evidence of metabolic obesity" - adiponectin 0.50 ug/ml.
His insulin is working well so the plan is to continue with careful diet and exercise and reassess in 6 weeks.
 
Just a little update - vet came out to reassess today, after 3 weeks of working him in Equi Ami 3 times per week at a higher intensity, and a Danilon trial, since the last visit.

He is definitely a little stiff in his right hind, he swings it outwards rather than bringing it under his body. On the right rein, he is reluctant to maintain canter and disunites behind at times.

Vet thinks it is probably his hocks, and has advised to shoe him behind as well as in front, with squared off, bevelled shoes to assist with breakover. Farrier is due out in a couple of weeks, by which time we will have moved yards and he'll be on individual turnout, so I'll be happier about him having hinds on.

I'm to concentrate on his canter when lunging, 2-3 times per week, perhaps doing some polework/cavaletti too and long reining in straight lines (out hacking maybe) so he's not just exercised on a circle all the time. Vet will come and reassess again in 3-4 weeks time, and we may consider injecting his hocks then, depending on how he has progressed.

His back is much more mobile now, vet is really happy with how flexible he is and he is moving much more freely and with more cadence. Just need to sort these hocks out. Vet doesn't think he now needs steroid injections in his back - managing the issue through exercise and change of management is working, and if we get the hind limb issues sorted we should be on course for him to come back into ridden work once I've had the baby :)
 
Super best of luck to you both. X


ponyparty said:
Just a little update - vet came out to reassess today, after 3 weeks of working him in Equi Ami 3 times per week at a higher intensity, and a Danilon trial, since the last visit.

He is definitely a little stiff in his right hind, he swings it outwards rather than bringing it under his body. On the right rein, he is reluctant to maintain canter and disunites behind at times.

Vet thinks it is probably his hocks, and has advised to shoe him behind as well as in front, with squared off, bevelled shoes to assist with breakover. Farrier is due out in a couple of weeks, by which time we will have moved yards and he'll be on individual turnout, so I'll be happier about him having hinds on.

I'm to concentrate on his canter when lunging, 2-3 times per week, perhaps doing some polework/cavaletti too and long reining in straight lines (out hacking maybe) so he's not just exercised on a circle all the time. Vet will come and reassess again in 3-4 weeks time, and we may consider injecting his hocks then, depending on how he has progressed.

His back is much more mobile now, vet is really happy with how flexible he is and he is moving much more freely and with more cadence. Just need to sort these hocks out. Vet doesn't think he now needs steroid injections in his back - managing the issue through exercise and change of management is working, and if we get the hind limb issues sorted we should be on course for him to come back into ridden work once I've had the baby :)
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