Hoof xrays. Why is she lame?

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Could anyone tell me from these xrays why my horse should be perfectly sound in imprints, but not sound barefoot or in normal shoes? Thanks Please note the xrays were taken just before the application of the imprints and she has been trimmed twice since then.

xrayL1.jpg


xraL2.jpg


xrayR1.jpg


xray4.jpg


Bit of background. Mare was sound barefoot on the stoniest of ground for two years, until lami got her last Christmas, and she was diagnosed with cushings. She came back sound but then her right foot (which was by far the worst affected by the lami) seemed to grow strangely and flare. She went lame shortly after two corrective trims to reshape her hoof. But after 6 weeks was still hopping lame on the right front. Vet suggested imprint shoes. She was immediately 100% sound after application of them and I started to bring her back into work after 3 years off due to a left shoulder injury which she is now 100% sound on. But since she has been coming in at night I can't keep the imprints on her as she is a door banger. So I asked the farrier to put normal shoes on her on Saturday. She was ok at first but over the next 24 hours went increasingly lame. Farrier returned yesterday. Thought it may be sole pressure due to the gradual onset of symptoms rather than the nails, which usually lame them straight away. He removed the shoes and seated them out before replacing them with smaller nails (four in each foot). But she's still not right and very footy. I plan to leave her on bute for a couple of days to see if they settle. But if not, get him back to remove the shoes on Thurs or Fri. Then will try her in boots. Any ideas? Could it be that she needs frog support? But why? She has no heat or pulses in any foot. :confused: So not lami as she had very strong pulses when she had that. I won't have heart bars as I hate them and think you are on a downwards spiral once you resort to them. Thanks
 
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is there a light rotation in the front left?

Also on the right the short pastern to the pedal bone looks different to the left as does the navicular bone look different density wise. Could just be the way the xray is taken I am no expert!
 
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Wagtail said:
Yes, there is, but she is sound on this foot when barefoot, but not sound on the right barefoot.
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the left one is the one I saw something between the short pastern and pedal and also something with the navicular on the right. Could be the pedal showing behind? Not sure. There is alot of variation between the two xrays. Ive been with a vet this summer looking at alot of xrays but I couldnt tell you what im seeing shows? If you get me. What did your vet say?
 
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I'm pretty useless at reading x-rays, but could the black dot on the 2nd picture at the bottom of the left hand side and the wiggle (sorry, not very technical :o ) underneath it be anything?
 
I certainly can't read X Rays but there seems to be more 'rotation' in the left hoof to me. :confused:

Also, on the left lateral X Ray what is the (whitish) shadowy area at an angle running from the back of the pedal bone under the bulbs and out to a point? Can't explain what I mean very well. Is it part of the hoof?
 
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badgermyers said:
the left one is the one I saw something between the short pastern and pedal and also something with the navicular on the right. Could be the pedal showing behind? Not sure. There is alot of variation between the two xrays. Ive been with a vet this summer looking at alot of xrays but I couldnt tell you what im seeing shows? If you get me. What did your vet say?
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I think there is a small amount of artritic change there, but dont think that is causing the lameness as she would be lame in the imprints too if it was.

Flame_ said:
I'm pretty useless at reading x-rays, but could the black dot on the 2nd picture at the bottom of the left hand side and the wiggle (sorry, not very technical :o ) underneath it be anything?
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Thanks. I think there are one or two bruises coming out which may bw what that is. But it is not somewhere that could be causing the lameness, I don't think as it would have been trimmed off by now.
 
reborn amandap said:
I certainly can't read X Rays but there seems to be more 'rotation' in the left hoof to me. :confused:

Also, on the left lateral X Ray what is the (whitish) shadowy area at an angle running from the back of the pedal bone under the bulbs and out to a point? Can't explain what I mean very well. Is it part of the hoof?
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The hooves has nothing on them at the time so must be. I too can't understand why the right hoof is causing more problems than the left.

badgermyers said:
It could be arthritis or something like that. Surely your vet made a diagnosis from these?
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She said the hooves were well balanced. There was very slight rotation in the left one but nothing significant. She said she thought the cushings had thinned her soles and that was why she was sore. But the soles don't look that thin to me and the farrier said they are very good. It's such a mystery.
 
badgermyers said:
Are they the plastic glue shoes? Maybe they take some pressure and give some support that helps with any discomfort from any arthritis?

Where these the only angles taken?
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Yes. They are the only ones I have. The imprints are a kind of plastic glue on shoe. It's such a shame they keep coming off now she's in. They stayed on for 6 weeks in the mud! :confused: But it costs me £80 every time she loses one, so I just can't keep doing it and was hoping for a longer term solution. May have to be boots and pads I think.
 
I would be inclined to think the issue is in the navicular/pastern area, I am no vet though. That is just what I would think if this was my horses and I would be back to see if we could narrow it down. You would nerve block it while barefoot and lame. Then you will find out if its foot or pastern?

Actually the more I think about this that may be hard to do as is such a close area. I was going to have one MRIed with a mystery lameness but we found it just before he went in!
 
Wagtail said:
She said the hooves were well balanced. There was very slight rotation in the left one but nothing significant. She said she thought the cushings had thinned her soles and that was why she was sore. But the soles don't look that thin to me and the farrier said they are very good. It's such a mystery.
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I'm afraid I think the/any rotation is significant. The lamina connection is not good if there is rotation... this takes time to grow out with careful management and getting the diet right. Thin soles are often also a dietary/metabolic problem if not being thinned by trimming I believe.
Have a read through Pete Ramey's articles.
 
badgermyers said:
I would be inclined to think the issue is in the navicular/pastern area, I am no vet though. That is just what I would think if this was my horses and I would be back to see if we could narrow it down. You would nerve block it while barefoot and lame. Then you will find out if its foot or pastern?

Actually the more I think about this that may be hard to do as is such a close area. I was going to have one MRIed with a mystery lameness but we found it just before he went in!
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Maybe I need to get the vet back. I have around 7 weeks of insurance left for anything laminitis related.
 
Flame_ said:
I'm pretty useless at reading x-rays, but could the black dot on the 2nd picture at the bottom of the left hand side and the wiggle (sorry, not very technical :o ) underneath it be anything?
Click to expand...

There's actually quite a shadow around the same area on the top photo too (and beware I might be talking total rubbish as I often see the wrong things on x-rays but if I didn't say I'd feel bad too IYSWIM). I'd question the vet and farrier about it a bit anyway. I have a horse with a keratoma that one vet missed on x-rays (mainly because he took the wrong ones :rolleyes: ) so just because they've been taken and looked at don't mean the answer isn't there, sort of... :o
 
reborn amandap said:
I'm afraid I think the/any rotation is significant. The lamina connection is not good if there is rotation... this takes time to grow out with careful management and getting the diet right. Thin soles are often also a dietary/metabolic problem if not being thinned by trimming I believe.
Have a read through Pete Ramey's articles.
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The vet thinks it is a conformational rotation as she has always had a mor upright pastern and hoof on the left and so may not have beeen due to the laminitis. It is wierd how that is the sound hoof (though not in the metal shoes it isn't, so perhaps some pedal bone pressure?).
 
Wagtail said:
The vet thinks it is a conformational rotation as she has always had a mor upright pastern and hoof on the left and so may not have beeen due to the laminitis. It is wierd how that is the sound hoof (though not in the metal shoes it isn't, so perhaps some pedal bone pressure?).
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I have never heard of conformational rotation before.

The bone needs to be attached to the hoof wall and the health of the lamina dictates this attachment. I can't get my head around it being conformational I'm afraid.
Also in my understanding if there isn't good lamina attachment growing a thicker sole is impossible.
 
Flame_ said:
There's actually quite a shadow around the same area on the top photo too (and beware I might be talking total rubbish as I often see the wrong things on x-rays but if I didn't say I'd feel bad too IYSWIM). I'd question the vet and farrier about it a bit anyway. I have a horse with a keratoma that one vet missed on x-rays (mainly because he took the wrong ones :rolleyes: ) so just because they've been taken and looked at don't mean the answer isn't there, sort of... :o
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Thanks. I am going to take some hoof photos later and see if anyone can see anything on them.
 
Think KatB in comp riders managed to pick up on some hoof problems via MRI. If you look through her previous posts may help?
 
Flame_ said:
There's actually quite a shadow around the same area on the top photo too (and beware I might be talking total rubbish as I often see the wrong things on x-rays but if I didn't say I'd feel bad too IYSWIM). I'd question the vet and farrier about it a bit anyway. I have a horse with a keratoma that one vet missed on x-rays (mainly because he took the wrong ones :rolleyes: ) so just because they've been taken and looked at don't mean the answer isn't there, sort of... :o
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Now that I have taken the photos, there does seem to be a crack up the right hand side of her heel that would correspond to the face on xray shadow you pointed out. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? It was receiving some support in the imprints but not now?
 
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