Hopetoun and ridiculous CIC rule

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susie2193

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Just got back from a very unsuccessful Hopetoun CCI**. Dressage 8:30 on Sat, walked the mile to get to the arena as no sign of transport, horse and daughter already warming up, and not going too well, did her test which wasn't his best, but he did the right bits in the right placves, so was hopefull of a resonable mark. Very disappointed with a 60.

Trot-up was supposed to be 8.00 on Sunday morning but got word at 5.30 it would be 6.0 in that evening, so after horse has stood on the lorry all day, pulled him off and raced up to trot-up, again abouyt 15 mins away so no time to loosen him up at all, trotting up all the 2 and 3* horses together, apsolute chaos, and told to stand in a queing system. Stood in line for about 3/4 hour, until our turn, and he was spun, lame behind, went to the holding area where the vet checked him and said only thing he could find wrong was he was a bit stiff. Represented and failed, to make matters worse ground jury told my duaghter off for presenting an obviously lame horse. If he was that lame why didn't they pick it up in his dressage test !!!!

Got his sheet back this morning, and 25 marks difference between the 2 judges - were they looking at the same test ?

So not happy, why can a horse do a 7 miunute dressage test fine, but the same people who judge that fail him trot 10 yards in a straight line !!!

Will trot him up in the morning and if necessary get our vet out, but still spent a lot of money on a dressage test.
 
This is not the first time that CIC have the trot up moved around several times and then you get chaos with people waiting around.

I would perhaps write something on the ERA forum as you cannot have been the only person completely messed around by this lack of organisation?
 
That is rubbish - what a shame.

Why oh why are vital detail changes not communicated to all those concerned.

Know it won't help now, but I would put your feelings down in a letter/email to BE.
 
While I can understand your annoyance, the rule is there fore a very good reason - horse welfare. In no way am I implying that you would run a lame horse but the FEI have to be seen to take horse welfare seriously.
You would be surprised at the amount of horses that don't trot up well in hand when they have no incentive to use themselves particularly if they are feeling a little tight somewhere but are apparently fine ridden when having been warmed up and the rider helps with the balance and rhythm. If he got a bad mark then the judges obviously saw something that they didn't like, be it irregularity, lack of suppleness, or whatever. When you have 2 judges, 1 sitting at C and 1 sitting at the side, then with some horses there will be a difference depending on the problems the horse shows - straightness is an obvious one as, from the side it is not your responsibility to worry about it. Of course, there is always the possibility that he gave himself a small injury doing the dressage.
 
I sympathise with you no end. How unfair

I was ther helping a couple friends in the 90 and 100 on the Saturday and to be honest it too was a bit of a nightmare- i can only assume its teething problems due to first time running such a large scale 'international' event with over 500 horses etc.

We were not told by the car parking steward or was it clear on any written communication that the numbers were actually being given in the trailer park not near the actual secretarys tent. Rather mad dash around to sort that one out!!! Only to find a huge queue of folk for sunday wanting numbers early sat morning!!!

Agree the hike back and forward was nightmare - 40 mins turnaround and 20 of that was the hike to and from lorry park to tack change etc .

We did watch the trot up late saturday evening and was horrified at the risks that folk took with rather expensive horses!!!! So busy and crowded as people pushing forward that I was astounded nothing got kicked out at. Theer were a few bustles but that did not stop folk pushing forwrd, agree that the officials should have had that better controlled in terms of what time each section ect came forward.

Overall it was a lovely course - very beefy for Intro whereas its been a kinder course in past.
Lovely venue and do hope it continues but with some alterations to help ease transition between phases etc.

thanks
 
Thanks for that, I probably will write to both BE and ERA, but at the moment my main concern is trotting him up tomorrow, and making sure that everything is OK.

Feelings at Hopetoun were running pretty high today with the lack of organisation, too small warmup areas, riders having to take XC gear to SJ as there wasn't enough time between phases to get back to the lorry park, change and get back again. I appreciate that at an event like this there is limited areas to park lorries, but if this is the case make sure people have enough time to change tack etc. and also lay on a decent shuttle service. After all it was the first time Hopetoun had run at this level, but it was run by an experienced management team.
 
oldvic said:
While I can understand your annoyance, the rule is there fore a very good reason - horse welfare. In no way am I implying that you would run a lame horse but the FEI have to be seen to take horse welfare seriously.
You would be surprised at the amount of horses that don't trot up well in hand when they have no incentive to use themselves particularly if they are feeling a little tight somewhere but are apparently fine ridden when having been warmed up and the rider helps with the balance and rhythm.
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Oldvic - Whilst disappoined with the dressage mark I can accept thqat judges see different things. My main gripe was the lack of organisation, that he had been stood on the lorry since finishing his dressage test, and we were given 30 mins notice to trot up somewhere that was 15 mins away, and then had to stand arround for another 45 mins. Also having been told by the vet in the holding box he just looked stiff and to represent, for the GJ to then tell my daughter off for presenting a lame horse was I think totally unfair and unnecessary. She was upset enough as it was without making her feel even more guilty.
 
i also have a long list of woes having had 2 horses in the cic 3 *
owners car park neither helpful for being with wagon or close enough to dressage etc
shuttle was rubbish not enough, not regular, no idea when it was going to turn up
signposting? couldn't find dressage, consequently missed vital warm up
too many people too close to dressage causing horses to spook
the distance between box park and competition was rediculously too far, poor poor grooms is all i can say
the trot up was a shambles
organisors need to remember if the competitors are not happy they won't come again, therefore the spectators who they bend over backwards for won't have anything to see, we can do without spectators, but they can't do without us
they are an experienced team but you wouldn't have thought so by this weekend
i am going to put all these points to the organising team as well

having said all that ian stark shows a masterclass on how to build proper event course, well done ian, even if both my horses had run outs!!!
 
I totally understand your annoyance at the organisation but the "ridiculous CIC rule" is not their fault - how it is implimented is!
The holding box vet is not supposed to indicate as to whether the horse should/will be accepted although he can advise NOT to represent if he has found an injury that means the horse is not fit to compete. Some horses can look not too bad in the holding area and worse on a possibly less forgiving surface in front of the ground jury. The president of the ground jury is very experienced and respected all over the world. She known for being very fair and "rider-friendly" so it is not really in character to reprimand a rider for trotting a lame horse unless she felt strongly about it. I'm not condoning it but a poorly run trot up after a long day judging is very frustrating as it drags the day out even more so maybe the fuses were shorter than normal and there may be xc fences to re-check/ sj course to pass after. Bad organisation puts a lot of pressure on the ground jury at many levels and they are volunteers.
 
This is all very interesting - I have been at Hopetoun all weekend in the tradestand area. We had a rather heated meeting with the organisers last night - we were told feedback from competitors was good (obviously not following your posts!!) and also spectators (I have had numerous people complaining about the price to get in).

Saying all this today was a good day so made up for the quiet day on Saturday. I also bought some beautiful birdy prints on the west lawn from Anna Wright (seriously gorgeous). By 9am this morning I think I spent all my profits from Saturday!!

Think there were some serious teething problems which is such as shame as the XC looked amazing and did make me wish I was running (at lowly PN level!!). Hopefully next year will be a lot better on the organisation front - thought the tractor/trailer service for spectators was great and did seem to be a lot of Polaris buggy things running back and forward to the lorry park (maybe not enough though?).
 
soupdragon71 said:
This is all very interesting - I have been at Hopetoun all weekend in the tradestand area. We had a rather heated meeting with the organisers last night - we were told feedback from competitors was good (obviously not following your posts!!) and also spectators (I have had numerous people complaining about the price to get in).
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My daughter is a WP and we were there with 8 horses over the W/E, I can assure you most of the multiple riders were not happy, so not sure what the 'good' feedback was. Most of the complaints being lack of orgainsation, the walk from lorry park combined with tight times and lack of transport, making the grooms job virtually impossible, and owners being forced to park a field away from the lorries. On Sunday the lorry park was half empty but they were still being asked to move their cars. As you said it could be a lovely event, but I thought that such an experienced organisation team should have got the basics right.
 
First of all OP, you do have my sympathies on having to W/D under these circumstances. It is poor to ask for horses to be trotted up with so little notice and after standing all day. Totally gutting for your daughter. Hopefully, you will find that he was just stiff and there is nothing seriously wrong.
Re. the new Hopetoun. I was there on Sat. with only one horse and I was shattered by the end of the day having jogged back and forth to the lorry park so often. My feet!!!! I can see the problem tho', the estate wall is in the way of access, hence the very circuitous route in and out. They need to sort that out. It wasn't helped either by the close times which could have been eased a bit surely.
On Sat. the dressage warm up was FAR too small and there were lots of spectators with buggies etc. also clogging up what little space there was.
SJ warm up and course 100%.
XC we thought was fairly trappy to start and then once up the hill long runs with not a lot happening. Overall educational for a young horse tho'.
Anyway, on to Sunday. This I really enjoyed as no jogging in the heat :). Watched most of 2 and 3 star just thinking how lucky we are to be able to see it so close to home and in such a fantastic setting.
 
They also need to ensure the deer are penned in for the duation of the event! A herd flew down from the top of the hill behind the large ditch and brush fence (thankfully no horses coming at the time!) proceeded right through the sj warm up and some even made it into the showjumping ring before colliding with various tradestands and causing one 3* competitor to be eliminated at fence 4 as they jumped in the way of the horse. Not safe for a start and not fair!
 
We were there yesterday morning for awhile and it did seem very disorganised round the sj, there were so many horses about and the fact the lorries were so far away.
Spoke to Caroline last night and she said the xc was carnage, she was fizzing about the deer.
 
gillianfleming said:
We were there yesterday morning for awhile and it did seem very disorganised round the sj, there were so many horses about and the fact the lorries were so far away.
Spoke to Caroline last night and she said the xc was carnage, she was fizzing about the deer.
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Oh was it with Boston? I did wonder what must have happened when I saw the E. Really not good enough and not first time deer have interfered with the event - I remember THAT picture in H & H
 
I got a couple of emails from the organisers before i went to give them feedback after the event had run. I can send them onto u if u want, as we didnt manage to make it

S x
 
I thought it was good event, but far too spaced out.
The horsebox park was miles away and think they'll beed to rethink the layout/format for next year.
I have no experience of other events Stuart Buntine organises but did think things were a bit lax, with no one giving clear directions. The prize givings were a bit of a shamble.
The deer should have been fenced away somewhere that they should not have been able to escape, but they could have caused a very serious accident. Poor Caroline, she did not look happy.
 
DarkHorseB i think it was Thornfield Jones from what she said, but she did say that if she hadn't had the first stop she would probably have been in the middle of the deer and the string from the fence.
Did anyone hear if all the horses that fell were ok? The screens were up at fence 23 (i think) when we left
 
Did you leave quite enar the beginning? A horse went down badly on 23 and didn't get up for ages. The vets got there (eventually) and put the screens up. It then got up and walked away, very stiffly. It was winded and a bit sore but otherwise fine. Later on they took fence 23 out. It was a bit of a silly fence. A big log or solid looking fence in its place would of been much safer.
 
dominobrown said:
Did you leave quite enar the beginning? A horse went down badly on 23 and didn't get up for ages. The vets got there (eventually) and put the screens up. It then got up and walked away, very stiffly. It was winded and a bit sore but otherwise fine. Later on they took fence 23 out. It was a bit of a silly fence. A big log or solid looking fence in its place would of been much safer.
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It was fence 22- the upright rails at the bottom of the hill near the end of the course. That was the first problem at it (like dominobrown says, thankfully horse and rider both ok, but horse had been winded and so stayed down for a while which must have been worrying. :( ), there were then two further incidents where the frangible pins on it were broken and then the fence was taken out of the course.

It's a tough one to call I guess as the course designer put it there in order to be a test and I guess it's always hard to know what will be a good challenge or if it will be a dangerous one. The 2* had a similar fence (not as steep an approach, but same idea) and this rode much better. Maybe the riders had learnt from the 3* issues? Maybe the 3* hill gradient/fence height was just too much?

As for the other issues with the event, from a spectator/volunteer point of view it was certainly much bigger than previous Hopetouns- the number of cars in the public parking both days was quite a sight! Volunteers were treated very well (we got a wee Hopetoun branded "G&T glass" as a thank you which is the first thank you gift I've ever received as a volunteer!) and we even had a visit from the Earl (not Lord as we addressed him, ooops! :o ) of Hopetoun on the Sunday when we were fence judging who stopped for a chat and was very friendly. :)

I agree it was a real hike between lorry parking and DR/SJ/XC, but everyone seemed to manage? Space was rather limited and I'm not sure where they could have parked all the lorries/trailers that could have been closer? :confused:

DR warm up could have been bigger and the 4 arenas were very close together. They were also lucky the ground was so good as if it had been softer, I'm not sure they could have got away with only 4 national DR arenas for all the intro/PN/Nov sections?!

The prize giving only going to 6th place (with 7th-10th picking up their rosettes in the lorry park) I thought was a shame, as those coming 7th-10th would still have appreciated a proper prize giving attendance I'm sure? But those in the top 6 at least got proper prizes by the looks of it! :)

However, there were lots of really good things- I spoke to so many random people who were there watching and asking questions who had never been to anything like it before, so hopefully a bit of interest in the sport going forward from them? The XC courses looked like good tests and I was very jealous not to be riding!

The ground was spot on perfect in most places (understandably boggy in the wooded section where the sun never hits) and when you consider ground conditions at other events this year, surely that was worth a huge amount?

Will be interesting to see what changes are made for next year.
 
gillianfleming said:
Aparantly they are talking about running the horse trial at the same time as the carriage driving trial, think that would be a huge mistake.
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Oooh, there really didn't feel like there would be enough space for that! :confused: Maybe if it ran over three days with less eventing per day to allow room/time for the carriage driving?!

PS- forgot to say that as much as I agree it would be best for the deer to be coralled for the weekend (no idea what happened to CP, but sorry to hear she had a deer incident and hope she/horse are ok), we saw a baby deer attempt (and get very close to succeeding!) to jump over the stone estate wall, so dread to think what kind of containment would be required for the full herd and if it would even be possible to herd them in and keep them in!
 
Figjam i totally agree with you re the amount of space. I've been to the driving event the last 3 years and their lorries and stabling takes up so much space.
And can you imagine trying to do ridden dressage with the teams going past
 
What a shame for your daughter to have her horse spun like that. Really, I think some event officials need to rethink their attitude and manners as I've been astonished on more than one occasion at their highhandedness and rudeness. After all, it takes a big effort to attend these events and entry fees are considerable - the very least one should expect as a competitor is fairness and basic politeness.

I also think the new shape of courses is far too demanding at lower levels. 90 & 100 used to be lovely, inviting courses that inexperienced horses and/or riders could hone their skills on and it was ENJOYABLE! It's very difficult to find a fair Intro/PreNov these days that isn't wall-to-wall skinnies and corner combos and max height / spread at every fence. It's a real shame that a few egos are being allowed to dominate the entire sport, to the detriment of everyone.

Good luck for the next outing and i hope the horse is ok
 
That's such a shame for you! Sounds like the event was not very well run based on all the comments above and it can't have helped not knowing when the trot up was!

Fingers crossed that your horse is just stiff, but out of interest, in the 45 minutes you were waiting was there no opportunity to walk him around to loosen him up, or were you made to just stand in a line? If you were just stood for that long without being able to walk him round that is really disorganised by whoever was in charge of trot up order!!
 
FigJam said:
we even had a visit from the Earl (not Lord as we addressed him, ooops! :o ) of Hopetoun on the Sunday when we were fence judging who stopped for a chat and was very friendly. :)


We were right. He IS the Earl of Hopetoun, that is his title, but you address him as Lord Hopetoun.

See http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/titles/earl-and-countess.aspx
"In conversation, an earl is referred to as Lord (Bessborough) rather than the Earl of (Bessborough). The wife of an earl is a countess and is known as Lady (Bessborough). Use of the title countess in speech is socially incorrect unless it needs to be specifically mentioned, for example in a formal introduction. The sole exception to this is HRH the Countess of Wessex who is always referred to as Countess."
:D:D:D
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Alltheprettyhorses said:
I also think the new shape of courses is far too demanding at lower levels. 90 & 100 used to be lovely, inviting courses that inexperienced horses and/or riders could hone their skills on and it was ENJOYABLE! ok
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Have to say i disagree slightly with that as i thought it was a very fair course (at 100 certainly). Only one real question at 5/6 and the rest was pretty straight forward With only one true combination later on in the course. Water was open and inviting, they made great use of the ground and i personally had a very enjoyable run.

I do agree with what was said earlier about distance to the lorry park and timings being tight. I was one who took xc stuff to the sj with me as no way i could have got back to the box in between. Hopefully they will adjust times accordingly next year if they keep the same layout!

Sorry to hear about the problems with the trot ups though. At the end of the day if they want to run an international event they have to listen to feedback this year and hopefully it will prevent similar problems in future.
 
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