Hormones or training issue

[Asha]

Stirling is doing really well now, and is back to being sound and loving his long walks. Recall has been something we aspired to have and so we practice it every day. Hes been brilliant.. until the other day.

Hes always been a bit of a lover so to speak, where he loves to lick both bitches and dogs , he never humps ( yet). Ive tried to stop him doing it, but have failed miserably, even food doesnt stop him. But over the last few weeks hes made friends with a really nice bunch of spayed bitches. They have taught him some manners, and hes gradually getting the idea that he shouldnt do it, until he comes across white hairy dogs. He becomes obsessed , so much so when one lovely little spaniel left the group to go home he ran off with her. He could have ended up on the main road, so now he cant be let off when theres any white dogs around. I also found out he did the same when my daughter took him for a walk, he ran off after 2 white spaniels ( 1 bitch and 1 dog) . He never runs off ( or hasnt yet) with any other dog, just white hairy ones. He will happily leave his usual friends 3 collies and 2 yellow labs. But he cant seem to control himself with white spaniel types. The owners of the others love him as hes really helping one of the young collies gain her confidence ( shes a rescue) they play so well together. So although he appears to be a bit of a sex pest with some, hes definitely improving with the others

Im been a bit anti castration with him, as hes already had 2 operations on his elbows and hes only 18 months. Ive an appointment with the vet on Monday to discuss options.

So do you good folk on ADD think its a training issue , where ive basically let him down or hes a sex pest due to hormones and castration is the way. ( all the above have been spayed / castrated except the spaniel bitch that he ran off with when my daughter took him

Photo of him after play time with his buddies

 

[CorvusCorax]

Er, going to be blunt here, it should have stopped with the licking. All of this is an escalation of microbehaviours to the point of obsession. You should have been teaching him the manners, not other people's dogs.

He's had two incidents of running off with no consequence...you can remove bits of his anatomy but to be fair to him this has all been 'allowed'. I'd be severely curtailing his freedom and running around with other dogs until it's sorted.

Don't be a bystander and hope for dogs that are spayed/of a certain colour, step in and tell him it's not acceptable. I've had problems with rude labs in the past (if he'd tried this with my female, he'd have been bitten in the face) and you don't want him to become one of those!

 

[Asha]

Er, going to be blunt here, it should have stopped with the licking. All of this is an escalation of microbehaviours to the point of obsession. You should have been teaching him the manners, not other people's dogs.

He's had two incidents of running off with no consequence...you can remove bits of his anatomy but to be fair to him this has all been 'allowed'. I'd be severely curtailing his freedom and running around with other dogs until it's sorted.

Don't be a bystander and hope for dogs that are spayed/of a certain colour, step in and tell him it's not acceptable. I've had problems with rude labs in the past (if he'd tried this with my female, he'd have been bitten in the face) and you don't want him to become one of those!

Fair enough ! But how do you stop them ? Ive popped him back on his lead when hes done it but he just wont focus on me. All training tips welcome.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't be allowing these sorts of interactions at all TBH, a big bunch of dogs tear-arsing around is not my cup of tea, to be honest, although I appreciate I am deeply weird

But if it something you really want to do again in the future, the moment he starts over-stepping the mark, give him whatever your verbal is for 'I don't want that', take him out of the situation, give him something else to do, if he doesn't focus on you, take him home, it doesn't matter how long you travelled to get there, or what your plans were, if he's just allowed to continue obsessing then it won't stop. It's his decision. He needs to link the unwanted behaviour/not listening to you, to an unpleasant consequence (IE everything stops and he goes home), because I presume you have tried diverting him with something more interesting such as food or whatever, and he has ignored it. It already sounds like other dogs are more interesting than you and you have a finite window in which to fix this.

 

[Asha]

I wouldn't be allowing these sorts of interactions at all TBH, a big bunch of dogs tear-arsing around is not my cup of tea, to be honest, although I appreciate I am deeply weird

But if it something you really want to do again in the future, the moment he starts over-stepping the mark, give him whatever your verbal is for 'I don't want that', take him out of the situation, give him something else to do, if he doesn't focus on you, take him home, it doesn't matter how long you travelled to get there, or what your plans were, if he's just allowed to continue obsessing then it won't stop. It's his decision. He needs to link the unwanted behaviour/not listening to you, to an unpleasant consequence (IE everything stops and he goes home), because I presume you have tried diverting him with something more interesting such as food or whatever, and he has ignored it. It already sounds like other dogs are more interesting than you and you have a finite window in which to fix this.

Thanks for that. Yes, i always take treats with me, so we can practice. Most of the time we are on our own just wandering around the fields , so practice our recall then. When hes playing with the others recall is really good. He always comes back even mid play, i can take him away no problem at all. When he bothered the other bitches i called him back ( he came) and then i gave him a treat. So have i inadvertently told him its a good thing ? But with the white spaniel types i cant do that, he wont listen
Do dogs really think like that? IE - take him away from the others = bad boy dont do it again ?

Perhaps its as simple as , white hairy dog around .. goes straight back on the lead.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

What happens when the other dogs are around? Is it just that you and the other owners are all in the same place and the meeting is serendipitous while they are all going about their own games and you accept that he has decided to join them or do you take Stirling up to them and make it clear that he is allowed to play with them?
Labs have a reputation for being easy dogs but in reality most of them are of the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" persuasion. If you allow him to make his own decisions/turn a blind eye, you are training him to do as he pleases. He pleases to follow hairy white dogs and it needs nipping in the bud. I would go back to micromanaging his every move and yes put him on a lead if his recall is unreliable.

 

[Asha]

What happens when the other dogs are around? Is it just that you and the other owners are all in the same place and the meeting is serendipitous while they are all going about their own games and you accept that he has decided to join them or do you take Stirling up to them and make it clear that he is allowed to play with them?
Labs have a reputation for being easy dogs but in reality most of them are of the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" persuasion. If you allow him to make his own decisions/turn a blind eye, you are training him to do as he pleases. He pleases to follow hairy white dogs and it needs nipping in the bud. I would go back to micromanaging his every move and yes put him on a lead if his recall is unreliable.

Theres 3 other owners on a group chat, who organise to be in the field at a certain time to meet up, so dogs can have a play. We go about once or twice a week max, and we are usually last one to arrive, so when we get there, their dogs come bounding over to greet us. All lovely and friendly and Stirling joins in. He tends to play for a bit, then just goes off sniffing. Then we all walk back to the entrance fo the field, pop back on leads and walk nicely home

 

[SDMabel]

If he was mine, he would go back on a long line , all it takes is for him to do it to the wrong dog and you've got a fight on your hands.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Thanks for that. Yes, i always take treats with me, so we can practice. Most of the time we are on our own just wandering around the fields , so practice our recall then. When hes playing with the others recall is really good. He always comes back even mid play, i can take him away no problem at all. When he bothered the other bitches i called him back ( he came) and then i gave him a treat. So have i inadvertently told him its a good thing ? But with the white spaniel types i cant do that, he wont listen
Do dogs really think like that? IE - take him away from the others = bad boy dont do it again ?

Perhaps its as simple as , white hairy dog around .. goes straight back on the lead.

I wouldn't be calling him when he is bothering other bitches, I would be giving the verbal signal for 'that's not OK', then going in there and taking him out physically. He won't know if he's right or wrong otherwise.

Dogs learn by action = consequence and typically make a link between two previously unrelated stimuli in 3-5 seconds. Remove something (fun stops) or add something (treat, which he is ignoring).

 

[Asha]

I wouldn't be calling him when he is bothering other bitches, I would be giving the verbal signal for 'that's not OK', then going in there and taking him out physically. He won't know if he's right or wrong otherwise.

Dogs learn by action = consequence and typically make a link between two previously unrelated stimuli in 3-5 seconds. Remove something (fun stops) or add something (treat, which he is ignoring).

Brill, will give that a go. Thanks CC

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Theres 3 other owners on a group chat, who organise to be in the field at a certain time to meet up, so dogs can have a play. We go about once or twice a week max, and we are usually last one to arrive, so when we get there, their dogs come bounding over to greet us. All lovely and friendly and Stirling joins in. He tends to play for a bit, then just goes off sniffing. Then we all walk back to the entrance fo the field, pop back on leads and walk nicely home

I just wouldn't allow that. When ours are on lead and we intend to let them loose, we sit them all down, they stay until all leads are off and they are told that they can go and play. If anyone gets up before the command, we start again.

Perhaps you could try to be the first there, as you can't dictate what the other owners do, then you can at least take control of Stirling and tell him when he can play with the others. The problem is atm if he joins the others when he feels like it after they have started playing, he won't see how that us different from joining the white dogs.

 

[Asha]

I just wouldn't allow that. When ours are on lead and we intend to let them loose, we sit them all down, they stay until all leads are off and they are told that they can go and play. If anyone gets up before the command, we start again.

Perhaps you could try to be the first there, as you can't dictate what the other owners do, then you can at least take control of Stirling and tell him when he can play with the others. The problem is atm if he joins the others when he feels like it after they have started playing, he won't see how that us different from joining the white dogs.

i was doing that when we went into the fields on our own. Made him sit and wait and then let him off. Then id practise recall. The two incidents we have had have only happened since weve met up with these dogs, so what you are saying makes sense. Basically then, our recall probably was 100% to begin with ( even though i thought it was) , add to that playtime is super fun for him, its all got a bit out of hand. So time to take a step back, stay away from the group for a bit, and get our focus back, and work harder on the recall.

Thanks PAS. So its not hormones/randy dog. Its training. Which is the better option as i can work on that

 

[CorvusCorax]

No recall is 100% unless it can be done under distraction. It will never be proofed by doing it with no distractions/on your own in a field then straight into loads of distraction like a group of other dogs.
It has to be built up mechanically (long line) and incrementally (decreasing the distance from the distraction).
What you offer him in terms of a reward or a consequence has to be of more importance to him than the fun of the other dogs. Because he has had several incidents of ignoring you and two of buggering off, you will have to work a bit harder to overcome it and he should not be rewarded by....going back to playing with the other dogs and doing what he likes.

 

[Clodagh]

I admit mine don’t do group play, and I think some of what he’s doing is the pre 2 year old testosterone peak but Scout was never allowed to do more than a polite sniff in greeting, when I decreed it acceptable. He’s not allowed to approach or interact with other dogs, ever, without me saying so. I am also not all about positive rewards.
He’s certainly never licked another dog without dire consequences. There’s a sex pest Labrador on every shoot and I hate my bitches having to deal with it and I 100% was not having one myself. I’ll happy push him off with my foot or knee if he’s getting above himself.

 

[Asha]

I admit mine don’t do group play, and I think some of what he’s doing is the pre 2 year old testosterone peak but Scout was never allowed to do more than a polite sniff in greeting, when I decreed it acceptable. He’s not allowed to approach or interact with other dogs, ever, without me saying so. I am also not all about positive rewards.
He’s certainly never licked another dog without dire consequences. There’s a sex pest Labrador on every shoot and I hate my bitches having to deal with it and I 100% was not having one myself. I’ll happy push him off with my foot or knee if he’s getting above himself.

Thanks for that . I think we may head back to the dog training classes we started last year to help both of us .

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think those of us who have multiple dogs probably have an easier time of it than single dog owners. Ours do group play but with one another and Daycare Dog. We prefer them not to interact with dogs we don't know.
I do think that group play is good for them, after all, they are pack animals and if you don't have a pack at home, playing with a trusted group of 'playmates' fills that gap. The problem is that all the owners really need to be on the same wavelength about expectations.

 

[gunnergundog]

What CorvusCorax has said is to the point and true. I would also add that, unless nipped in the bud, this is likely to escalate. It won't just be white hairy dogs that are your bete noir; over time unless corrected it will be black hairy dogs, it will be brown non-hairy dogs, in fact, it will be ANY dog.

Actions have consequences. You said above that one of the bitches had taught him some manners: he pushed his luck with her, she showed him the error of his ways. Now it is your turn to show him that his actions result in consequences.

Food can be very useful in dog training but there are other ways to reward good behaviour that make the handler more than just a food dispenser. Likewise, many ways to mark unwanted behaviours.

Avoidance is a management tool, not a training tool, although may be useful in the early stages of training.

 

[Asha]

What CorvusCorax has said is to the point and true. I would also add that, unless nipped in the bud, this is likely to escalate. It won't just be white hairy dogs that are your bete noir; over time unless corrected it will be black hairy dogs, it will be brown non-hairy dogs, in fact, it will be ANY dog.

Actions have consequences. You said above that one of the bitches had taught him some manners: he pushed his luck with her, she showed him the error of his ways. Now it is your turn to show him that his actions result in consequences.

Food can be very useful in dog training but there are other ways to reward good behaviour that make the handler more than just a food dispenser. Likewise, many ways to mark unwanted behaviours.

Avoidance is a management tool, not a training tool, although may be useful in the early stages of training.

How would you reward without food & how would you mark unwanted behaviour ? Im keen to try different things / take on advice .

 

[gunnergundog]

You reward with what is valuable to the dog in front of you, and that will vary from dog to dog according to their individual preference.. But mix it up!

You say he likes playing with the other dogs, so use play with YOU as a reward. Make yourself exciting and interact with him. Have one special toy that only ever comes out as a reward to be played with with you. A piece of rabbit skin is something I use with mine when pups.
Touch - some value human contact, so a stroke or an ear pull/massage or whatever is appreciated. One of my boys is a 'leaner'; biggest reward for him is to be allowed to lean against me and have a back rub.
Vocal reward.....praise in an appropriate voice.
Chase.....biggest reward for another of mine is allowing him to run in and chase a ball as soon as it is lobbed. 99.9% of the time he is sat and made to wait before being released for a retrieve, but I work on the principle of 'sometimes we do, sometimes we don't' with my dogs.
With food - vary the value....kibble is low value, hot roast chicken is high. Keep him guessing what is on offer. Also, if the recall isn't shit hot as in he turns the minute you call/whistle, put the reward away. Sorry mate, not good enough.

Re marking unwanted behaviour.....
Voice - like most gundog people I have that invaluable command that they never teach you at dog training; 'Oi'.....sometimes followed up with 'what do you think you're doing?' The words could be anything, it is the tone of voice in which they are delivered. The 'oi' is an interrupter which grabs their attention back on me and the follow up sentence is delivered in a tone that makes them think 'oh shit, she's going into wrath of god mode if I don't buck my ideas up!'
Body language....when delivering the vocals outlined above, my body language is strong and large. I mean business.
Action.....if necessary I then follow up with removing dog from scene of whatever crime he has committed, placing on lead, putting in a heel position and doing some square bashing, whatever is appropriate.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

 

[Asha]

You reward with what is valuable to the dog in front of you, and that will vary from dog to dog according to their individual preference.. But mix it up!

You say he likes playing with the other dogs, so use play with YOU as a reward. Make yourself exciting and interact with him. Have one special toy that only ever comes out as a reward to be played with with you. A piece of rabbit skin is something I use with mine when pups.
Touch - some value human contact, so a stroke or an ear pull/massage or whatever is appreciated. One of my boys is a 'leaner'; biggest reward for him is to be allowed to lean against me and have a back rub.
Vocal reward.....praise in an appropriate voice.
Chase.....biggest reward for another of mine is allowing him to run in and chase a ball as soon as it is lobbed. 99.9% of the time he is sat and made to wait before being released for a retrieve, but I work on the principle of 'sometimes we do, sometimes we don't' with my dogs.
With food - vary the value....kibble is low value, hot roast chicken is high. Keep him guessing what is on offer. Also, if the recall isn't shit hot as in he turns the minute you call/whistle, put the reward away. Sorry mate, not good enough.

Re marking unwanted behaviour.....
Voice - like most gundog people I have that invaluable command that they never teach you at dog training; 'Oi'.....sometimes followed up with 'what do you think you're doing?' The words could be anything, it is the tone of voice in which they are delivered. The 'oi' is an interrupter which grabs their attention back on me and the follow up sentence is delivered in a tone that makes them think 'oh shit, she's going into wrath of god mode if I don't buck my ideas up!'
Body language....when delivering the vocals outlined above, my body language is strong and large. I mean business.
Action.....if necessary I then follow up with removing dog from scene of whatever crime he has committed, placing on lead, putting in a heel position and doing some square bashing, whatever is appropriate.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

Brilliant. thank you. That really helps.

I can see now where ive gone wrong with the recall. Ive treated when hes taken his time to come back.

Hes a soppy sod, and really doesnt like me being cross with him. For example if he picks something up he shouldnt, i can make him drop it with a very cross.. Stirling No. So i guess i need to extend that.

Lots to work on, thank you

 

[Asha]

Thought I’d do a little update .
I know it’s early days , but he seems to be turning a corner . We have firmed up the word no in general at home and out and about . Yesterday my son took him out and bumped into his friends , the report was that he was so much better and really listened. I was a bit skeptical , but tonight we bumped into his friends again and my son was right. The minute he went to any bottom he was told No , and he only blooming listened . No bottom licking at all
Tonight . He had a fab play with them all.

So , we will keep this firm approach up from now .

Oh and he only gets a treat when he comes back straight away .. all
Of a sudden he’s legging it back pronto . So fingers crossed we are getting there

Thanks for all the advice

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good, I was thinking about you yesterday, as in 'I hope Asha's going in and getting him by the collar and taking him home if he ignores her'

 

[Asha]

Good, I was thinking about you yesterday, as in 'I hope Asha's going in and getting him by the collar and taking him home if he ignores her'

I was ready for it , but haven’t needed to . I’m amazed at how quickly he’s responded. He really doesn’t like being told off

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yeah I roared at mine for barking in her elderly father's face tonight and then she totally blanked him in hope of a big feed (I didn't want that either )