Horrible horse...!

Ladyinred said:
^^^^^ This, exactly.

Skipping to your further post, PR, re 'growling'.. I am ok with that as I think we need to have a means of conveying our displeasure and we don't have the moveable ears of a horse!! I actually tend to uh-uh-uh now, which is the same.
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Agreed.Hitting a youngster would cause more problems. Play nicely!!! Get help with her from a instructor!
 
She sounds like most confident 2 year olds to me. Mine is like it - he gets lots of elbows and sharp pokes in the chest and neck. The first thing I taught him is to back up and to move over to my hand and that is great so as soon as he is in my personal space and breathing into my collar - I make him back up and then move over one way and then the other and I can then give him a scratch and praise and he has learnt something and I am in control.

Very frustrating I know - my boy wants to breath my air and stand in my boots literally and it's a fine balance between getting nasty and controlling a pushy baby. She will grow up though - it's just like kids :)
 
Thanks all - i cant multiuote as there is so many replies!

whoeveer said "when am i nice to her".... when i brush her, tie her up (which she does lovely), change her rugs, just pat her and talk to her....

thats when shes got a head collar on.... im NOT phased by anything on the ground - however this little horse is really testing that statement...!

I hate , truly hate hitting my horse, but when its threatening (and has) doubel barrled me - im kinda wary...!! so would rather use a whip as an arm extension than get close to give her a tap with a baseball cap.... as my brain would probably be touching her hoof - not the hat!

Im very tempted to ship her off to youngstock livery to teach her some manners - shes always been with one other horse - her sister and now my mare - so has no concept of manners or herd heirarchy - i think thats our little issue as well....

shes well fed/rugged and i do sort of like her...!! id r ather not sell as in 12 months to break her she will be lovely!

re; bags/etc - i tried that today........ she is NOT scared of anything.... plastic bags/bale bags/fencing

she also decide today that because my older horse was taken away into the NEXT paddock - she freaked out and barged her way through the fence....taking my entire fencing with her ad having several snapped posts etc.... when she decided she couldnt get through that way she jumped a 3 foot fence to get in with my other mare....so this little un imo needs to go learn some manners and herd heirarchy and not get attatched to my mare - this setup dosent suit her i don tthink!

i was fuming... so ignored her and fixed the fence. but like i said - i think youngstock livery for 12 months is the way to go..... and for now get an older ponyfor me to hack out and my horse to live out with :)

my field is spot on for what i want/need but obviously little un dosent realise how lucky we are having it!!.... (she broke out a while ago and i ended up getting a phonecall from a farmer!) shes a tyipical bolshy youngster....


if anyone does know of any youngstock livery please pm me - im actually not bothered where she goes as long as its safe and secure and shes in a proper herd of youngsters and older horses would be perfect.... north west area....

hope im on the right lines with that as shes currently up for sale as of an hour ago but i really dont wan tto sell her... (i was angry when the add went up)!

thanks :)
 
I hope you wont take offene but I honestly think you would be better selling and buying an adult riding horse instead. You dont seem to have the experience or any support system for dealing with youngsters although Im sure you are doing your best :)
The market cant be vastly different from when you bought her as if Im remembering it right you only bought her a little while back.
 
capriole - i agree - i admit defeat with this one!...but selling in this market is a struggle

i am tempted to send her away for grass livery for 12 months in a herd...but not rushing into anyting...

jools1234 - i value my safety - I come first - not any horse!....ive been booted by her once for not a valid reason.... shes lucky she has a nice home, field, hayed, and liked.... pleny of horses going through sales, being beaten and starved.... so shes not in a bad place... ;)
 
Capriole said:
I hope you wont take offene but I honestly think you would be better selling and buying an adult riding horse instead. You dont seem to have the experience or any support system for dealing with youngsters although Im sure you are doing your best :)
The market cant be vastly different from when you bought her as if Im remembering it right you only bought her a little while back.
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I agree with this. This is not the horse for you :) It's not about any nebulous concept like respect or leadership... with a young horse, it's about training, training, training, not getting angry or discouraged but just noting the behaviour and working out calmly what you need to train so that you get what you want instead of what you don't. Once you've done all that boring graft, everybody will look at you and say things like "gosh, your horse really respects you" or "how lucky you are to have such an easy horse" ;-). But that's the product of the training, not some micraculous thing you get by waving hats, bags, sticks or ropes.

Get a horse where this boring graft has already been done, and your life (and theirs) will be more pleasant and less stressful.
 
noodle_ said:
jools1234 - i value my safety - I come first - not any horse!....ive been booted by her once for not a valid reason.... shes lucky she has a nice home, field, hayed, and liked.... pleny of horses going through sales, being beaten and starved.... so shes not in a bad place... ;)
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I understand that but I don't understand why you are surprised that she ran through and jumped fences to be with another horse,

I also don't understand why you feel she will be a lovely horse in a years time if you turn her out in a herd-her problems will not all magically disapear you know?

I think you would better of selling, she sounds like she needs consistency and that she is not getting it
 
To be honest, you have to put the time in to youngsters.
I have bought horses like yours and sold them on when they are sorted. Personally, when people tell me, it's alright for me, my horses are easy, it's fairly obvious, they have no clue.
The only way to properly sort this is for you to do it yourself. A good instructor (I do mean a good one), can give you the techniques to use. It's not brain surgery, despite what some tell you.
If you learn how to deal with this yourself, it will be easier for you and your horses in the future.
Sending her away would not be my choice, a horse like this picks up where it left off when it comes home.
There are no short cuts to training a youngster, there are plenty of half trained, half backed horses about, just read some of the threads on here.

You won't bully, intimidate or con a horse like the one you describe. She needs a good honest foundation.

Good luck.
 
Thanks for the replies

she has normally happily stood while i move another mare 10meters away but today freaked out...

for now i will be handling her in her bridle as i have more control

Im willing to put the work in as i know she will be nice once shes older (i can see potential...)!

Short term i need to put work in - regardless if i sell her or not.... as theres no point leaving her in a field to her own devices.

thanks for the advice i will look into getting an instructor :)
 
thanks faracat!....

I will try....not promising anything but i think taking a deep breathe before i do *anything* with her would be a good idea!


diggin her bridle out for tomorow (shes used to wearing it!) and going to start handling her all the time , asking her to back up everytime she gets too close - and invite her into my space rather than her helping herself! :)

im sure theres a lovely pony under that attitude :)
 
Brightbay said:
It's not about any nebulous concept like respect or leadership... with a young horse, it's about training, training, training, not getting angry or discouraged but just noting the behaviour and working out calmly what you need to train so that you get what you want instead of what you don't. Once you've done all that boring graft, everybody will look at you and say things like "gosh, your horse really respects you" or "how lucky you are to have such an easy horse" ;-). But that's the product of the training, not some micraculous thing you get by waving hats, bags, sticks or ropes.
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This is a keeper. Wise words indeed. People naturally seek quick solutions - entirely understandable - when what's really needed is patience and graft.
 
Thanks - i agree :)

i have a good plan now - took a deep breathe thing morning before i went to see her...and we got on well - i asked her to go back and she did..., asked her to move over (gently) and she did....

i think the approach with this one is firm (not nasty) but fair!! :)

will kep you updated :)

shes looking like shes getting bigger too which is always a good thing but now i definately need to keep a lid on the attitude! :)
 
Just have to say that the concepts of leadership and respect are far from vague confused or indistinct.
Training is not boring graft.
It's an attitude of mind combined with knowledge, experience and technique.
When you are able to understand the horse's learning processes, it is suprising how quicky young horses progress and enjoy the process.
Horses have great aptitude to learn, and learn quicky. Leadership and respect are two of the golden keys to success.
 
Pale Rider said:
Just have to say that the concepts of leadership and respect are far from vague confused or indistinct.
Training is not boring graft.
It's an attitude of mind combined with knowledge, experience and technique.
When you are able to understand the horse's learning processes, it is suprising how quicky young horses progress and enjoy the process.
Horses have great aptitude to learn, and learn quicky. Leadership and respect are two of the golden keys to success.
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The trouble with this statement is that the words are misused and missapplied with such frequency that I find it easier to use neither of them, although I agree with them as per my own interpretation.

Too many demand leadership and request through force and violence, or simply through 'no choice' scenarios for them to be words that now sit comfortably with my concept of training a horse.

Training is certainly not boring graft!! It fascinates me, especially the tiny differences between each horse that mean we have to constantly re-evaluate and tweak our methods to suit.

I think it is often condemned as 'boring' because, done properly, it isn't a spectator sport.. often nothing appears to be happening to the inexperienced eye, which is how it should be. Drama, shouting and hitting play no part in my version of training a horse. Any horse.
 
Unfortunately, you cannot demand respect or leadership, whether we use the words or not is immaterial. Using force or violence has no place in training. Exerting dominance, as is often seen, thwarts our training, as this encourages a battle which is always detrimental and always lost by the trainer.
Training for me is an ongoing process, which never ends having started as a foal.

By the time the horse is 8 or 9, it should be at such a level where the thoughts of the trainer, whether in the saddle or on the ground becomethe actions of the horse.

You can try sticks, whips, ropes, bags, restrictive tack or whatever, good luck with that, it won't work.
 
Ladyinred said:
The trouble with this statement is that the words are misused and missapplied with such frequency that I find it easier to use neither of them, although I agree with them as per my own interpretation.

Too many demand leadership and request through force and violence, or simply through 'no choice' scenarios for them to be words that now sit comfortably with my concept of training a horse.

Training is certainly not boring graft!! It fascinates me, especially the tiny differences between each horse that mean we have to constantly re-evaluate and tweak our methods to suit.

I think it is often condemned as 'boring' because, done properly, it isn't a spectator sport.. often nothing appears to be happening to the inexperienced eye, which is how it should be. Drama, shouting and hitting play no part in my
version of training a horse. Any horse.
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Ditto :D. I've spent a lot of time training horses to follow me, move backwards away from me, move sideways away from me, circle me, move sideways towards me, stop, stand still, stand where positioned, come to me on the mounting block, trot with me, canter with me... They and I have greatly enjoyed this process and it's stood me in good stead for riding. I haven't had to use escalating pressure at any point, I don't use sticks or whips or pressure halters, I can lead them with a headcollar, a string around their necks and (one all the time and the others increasingly) with nothing at all... The big boy is 17hh of herd leader, and yes, he spent a lot of time on his hind legs waving his feet when he was a youngster, but he didn't get chased away, punished, worked until he was sorry... I just waited for him to settle himself and then asked in a different way, or asked for something slightly different. In NH speak, I am sure he would be called "very dominant" - he is with horses, but to handle he is now calm, understands and responds promptly to cues, and whinnies and runs over whenever he sees me (stopping a "respectful" distance away :D).

I haven't trained respect. I haven't asked for submission to my leadership, I've just trained and interacted, until we both understand what my cues mean, and until we both understand what his cues mean. To watch, you could say it's respect and leadership... but to me, it's still the product of a training process. If that's the case, why bother with calling it leadership or respect, since that doesn't add anything to it at all? I would rather, if I find things are not going well, to be called a poor trainer than a poor leader, since the first simply means that I need to change how I train, whist the second, being largely based on my personality, leaves me a bit stuck ;)
 
Brightbay said:
Ditto :D. I've spent a lot of time training horses to follow me, move backwards away from me, move sideways away from me, circle me, move sideways towards me, stop, stand still, stand where positioned, come to me on the mounting block, trot with me, canter with me... They and I have greatly enjoyed this process and it's stood me in good stead for riding. I haven't had to use escalating pressure at any point, I don't use sticks or whips or pressure halters, I can lead them with a headcollar, a string around their necks and (one all the time and the others increasingly) with nothing at all... The big boy is 17hh of herd leader, and yes, he spent a lot of time on his hind legs waving his feet when he was a youngster, but he didn't get chased away, punished, worked until he was sorry... I just waited for him to settle himself and then asked in a different way, or asked for something slightly different. In NH speak, I am sure he would be called "very dominant" - he is with horses, but to handle he is now calm, understands and responds promptly to cues, and whinnies and runs over whenever he sees me (stopping a "respectful" distance away :D).

I haven't trained respect. I haven't asked for submission to my leadership, I've just trained and interacted, until we both understand what my cues mean, and until we both understand what his cues mean. To watch, you could say it's respect and leadership... but to me, it's still the product of a training process. If that's the case, why bother with calling it leadership or respect, since that doesn't add anything to it at all? I would rather, if I find things are not going well, to be called a poor trainer than a poor leader, since the first simply means that I need to change how I train, whist the second, being largely based on my personality, leaves me a bit stuck ;)
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^^^^ Great to read!! This is the way we 'train'.. if thats what it can be called, we are more often accused of 'playing' ;)
 
Being young some do try to be dominant. Scuse if I missed it but I didnt read how old she was.

There are several things you can try.
There are many books on manners with usefull tips
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Perfect-Man...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349163044&sr=1-1
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Curing-Ba...605?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cc815dc45
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_s...e+bad+habits&_nkwusc=horse+bad+habbits&_rdc=1


  • Find a livery yard where there are lots of youngsters and they are experienced in handling young ones, somewhere where they can start her training.
  • Put her in a field with a dominant horse who can teach her some of the ground rules.
  • Have a good instructor to help you with the groundwork.
  • Get a professional to come to your yard and do it.
  • Contact Rober Maxwell ask for help and go to one of his training sessions.
  • Sell her and find one without attitude.
  • Try rewarding her for good behaviour
  • try clicker program


What ever you choose you must be consistant and not tolerate barging Use a firm "NO" and if no response a smack with the back of your hand on the front of the chest and say no again and " back up".


It would help if you went into the arena and practiced in a lunge cavasson and bridle or even have someone to help you long rein using the commands and someone halting her as you say stand etc.

There are some pressure points used to move a horse away from use like behind the shoulder. But you need to repeat and repeat so she learns you wont accept bad manners.

Every horse is different you need to find out what her things are that she really likes.


For example my boy loves his withers scratched. I would stand him still then use his pressure point and say "over" if he crosses his legs correctly I would then reward him with a quick scratch and say * good boy*. Its not all about treats as treats can make them grabby or snatchy.
Good Luck
 
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Wow OP! This is the post I was too sacred to write :(

I have a big 3 1/2 y/o and she was a terror, however with consistency and lots of short bursts of groundwork we have a much better relationship.

She still tries it on at times and can still be explosive at times, but it happens less.

On the one hand I really wanted to sell her, but on the other I feared for her future if I did!

The most important thing I find, is to make sure I am calm before I come into contact with her, it's about setting yourself up to succeed I think.

Good Luck!
 
Pale Rider said:
Just have to say that the concepts of leadership and respect are far from vague confused or indistinct.
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I am sure most people have a very clear idea of what is meant by leadership and respect. The problem is that not everyone has the same idea - in fact they can be very different! So it really isn't helpful to tell someone that they "need to have a horse's respect by being a better leader" (say) without going into specific details of what that entails in practice. Some people equate leadership and dominance, even though they aren't the same thing when it comes to herd roles (which may come as a surprise to some). As a result, the poor horse gets subjected to all kinds of attempted displays of dominance, which it may cope with more or less well, when training the behaviours that are wanted and/or detraining those which are unwanted is what's needed.

Training is not boring graft.
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When I wrote "graft", I didn't mean to imply that it is boring - far from it! All I was trying to convey was the need to spend time working on something. Quick fixes are often not long lasting.
 
Brightbay said:
To watch, you could say it's respect and leadership... but to me, it's still the product of a training process.
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Couldn't agree more. For me, "respect" is a just word to describe the end product - the good behaviour/manners. It is not something that needs to be instilled (somehow - how??) before good behaviour is shown. It is not even necessarily an attitude.
 
I do think that some of us are singing from the same hymn sheet here where training I'd concerned. Perhaps, some of the terms we use are just not good enough to convey what we mean. That though is probably more a fault of our language.

Obviously, when you are involved in training, you do get asked lots of questions, by owners and onlookers, I can see people often don't understand what I'm talking about in face to face conversations, so a forum has no chance, lol.

To me training is just part of horsemanship, the lines between it all are blurred, but interdependent. For example, you cannot train a horse whose brain is being fryed by a poor diet.

I tend to talk about observation, understanding, communication and leadership.

Because of the individuality of each and every horse, you need to be able to see how it behaves in his own skin. Watching how he acts, reacts and interacts with his world should give you the information you need to understand what the most effective way of communicating what you want from him and what he needs from you to enable this.

I suppose the leadership term is the hardest to define as there are good leaders and bad. I would have assumed that anyone would want to be and understand how to be a good leader, but a dominant, unjust leader is the opposite of what you want.

I like the idea that leadership and respect are the product and gift of good training by an effective trainer, so I'll happily go with that.
 
Pale Rider said:
I do think that some of us are singing from the same hymn sheet here where training I'd concerned. Perhaps, some of the terms we use are just not good enough to convey what we mean. That though is probably more a fault of our language.

Obviously, when you are involved in training, you do get asked lots of questions, by owners and onlookers, I can see people often don't understand what I'm talking about in face to face conversations, so a forum has no chance, lol.

To me training is just part of horsemanship, the lines between it all are blurred, but interdependent. For example, you cannot train a horse whose brain is being fryed by a poor diet.

I tend to talk about observation, understanding, communication and leadership.

Because of the individuality of each and every horse, you need to be able to see how it behaves in his own skin. Watching how he acts, reacts and interacts with his world should give you the information you need to understand what the most effective way of communicating what you want from him and what he needs from you to enable this.

I suppose the leadership term is the hardest to define as there are good leaders and bad. I would have assumed that anyone would want to be and understand how to be a good leader, but a dominant, unjust leader is the opposite of what you want.

I like the idea that leadership and respect are the product and gift of good training by an effective trainer, so I'll happily go with that.
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Now there's a definition I like!! One to remember.
 
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