Horrible situation - same sex aggression rehoming problem

I'm not a behaviourist.

I don't think it is resource guarding. Up to the point that I read she attacked the dog who was resting, I was thinking over arousal/frustration leading to redirected aggression but for her to deliberately go after a dog who was quietly resting doesn't fit with that. And let's not forget she has no bite inhibition.

Has she ever redirected onto a person?

I'm sorry but I think you are going to struggle to find someone who will take her on with this history.
 
skinnydipper said:
I'm not a behaviourist.

I don't think it is resource guarding. Up to the point that I read she attacked the dog who was resting, I was thinking over arousal/frustration leading to redirected aggression but for her to deliberately go after a dog who was quietly resting doesn't fit with that. And let's not forget she has no bite inhibition.

Has she ever redirected onto a person?

I'm sorry but I think you are going to struggle to find someone who will take her on with this history.
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There is another, excellent solution, altho I don’t know whether UK vets will cooperate - they ought, if the alternative is destruction.
Relatives in Chile: with a very large, mastiff-y type of dog (among others) that was 99% ‘lovely’, but also killed a neighbour’s spaniel, and badly bit a delivery person. So, was not really that ‘lovely’ after all.
They had all her teeth drawn, rather than have her shot.
The vet was in full agreement, and worth remembering plenty of unaggressive dogs loose their teeth or have them removed for gum disease, anyway.
Juno lived to be 13 or 14, she was always loud and a bit pushy, but no more trouble other than a lot of slaver.
Might be worth enquiring?
 
skinnydipper said:
Has she ever redirected onto a person?
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Not even when very frightened (being hosed down or during claw clipping training) or in pain.
She's calm enough to allow examination of a recent painful mouth injury so closely that the vet got a quick lick on the nose for her trouble.
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Edit to add that she greets any delivery people nicely if she's out when they arrive, as well as visiting friends and neighbours. No concerns on that front.
 
I'm not sure that was what was meant by 'redirection'. Redirection would be, for example, if a person tried to separate two fighting dogs, one dog 'redirecting' the aggression onto the person.

I personally couldn't keep my dogs in this way because the type of dog I like. Sadly not all breeds/types/bloodlines of same will automatically get along well with others when put together in a big pack, which is why it's good to know about the individual dog's genetics before trying to integrate them, and you won't know the true nature of the dog you have until about 12-18 months.
It would be lovely if there were loads of homes available for dogs like this, but there aren't, most pet people want a dog that doesn't require a lot of thought/work/management, but I do hope you strike lucky.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I'm not sure that was what was meant by 'redirection'. Redirection would be, for example, if a person tried to separate two fighting dogs, one dog 'redirecting' the aggression onto the person.
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Yes, thank you CC, that is along the lines of what I was asking. I should have been clearer.
 
lozzles said:
Having had a spaniel end up needing stitches from a much larger dog pinning her down and raking her side I wouldn't say that would remove all risk. Regardless of any ethics around leaving a dog with no teeth.
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You mean the larger dog had lost it’s teeth but still raked your spaniel?
Interesting, because I know Juno continued rough and tumble with the other dogs; witnessed it; and she was always quite ‘forward’ with visitors, too, but nothing got wounded.
My cousins were just delighted her life was spared, and how it worked out. It might even have been the vet’s suggestion, rather than destroy their dog, can’t remember.
 
Exasperated said:
There is another, excellent solution, altho I don’t know whether UK vets will cooperate - they ought, if the alternative is destruction.
Relatives in Chile: with a very large, mastiff-y type of dog (among others) that was 99% ‘lovely’, but also killed a neighbour’s spaniel, and badly bit a delivery person. So, was not really that ‘lovely’ after all.
They had all her teeth drawn, rather than have her shot.
The vet was in full agreement, and worth remembering plenty of unaggressive dogs loose their teeth or have them removed for gum disease, anyway.
Juno lived to be 13 or 14, she was always loud and a bit pushy, but no more trouble other than a lot of slaver.
Might be worth enquiring?
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That is a pretty hideous thing to do to a dog :mad: I've heard of it done in the US, including a dog that Cesar Millan tried to 'cure', but pretty sure over here it would not be an option.

It also doesn't stop the dog attacking, so the tension in the house remains for all resident dogs and humans, not a viable or humane solution.
 
I've known big dogs to have killed other dogs whilst muzzled (and leashed, in one case). A powerful dog like a Presa is still going to be able to do serious damage without teeth if they want to, and it's not fair on either dog put them in the stressful situation of having to live together, even with teeth removed.
 
Teaselmeg said:
That is a pretty hideous thing to do to a dog :mad: I've heard of it done in the US, including a dog that Cesar Millan tried to 'cure', but pretty sure over here it would not be an option.

It also doesn't stop the dog attacking, so the tension in the house remains for all resident dogs and humans, not a viable or humane solution.
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I think it is more an American thing. I can imagine UK vets might be uneasy, and if said dog is still going to attack with brute force - probably is better to destroy it, then.
Luckily, it worked for Juno, who 99% of the time was ‘lovely’, anyway.
 
skinnydipper said:
I don't think it is resource guarding. Up to the point that I read she attacked the dog who was resting, I was thinking over arousal/frustration leading to redirected aggression but for her to deliberately go after a dog who was quietly resting doesn't fit with that
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I should also explain what I mean by this I was thinking over arousal/frustration leading to redirected aggression.

She can't get to what she wants so she takes it out on the nearest dog. If a person stopped her from getting to something she wanted, would she redirect onto the person.

Also as CC said, if she was involved in an altercation and you tried to separate them, would she redirect onto you.
 
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There were people involved, trying to separate. She did not tried to bite them, despite them trying to force her jaw, throttle and punch her. (FWIW, I think they made it worse, but wouldn't anyone try the same.)
She doesn't bother about humans taking high value things away from her, or giving things to other dogs under her nose.
All our dogs know that a treat offered by name to another dog means it isn't for them.
 
scruffyponies said:
There were people involved, trying to separate. She did not tried to bite them, despite them trying to force her jaw, throttle and punch her. (FWIW, I think they made it worse, but wouldn't anyone try the same.)
She doesn't bother about humans taking high value things away from her, or giving things to other dogs under her nose.
All our dogs know that a treat offered by name to another dog means it isn't for them.
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The thing is, for the most part she sounds like a wonderful dog and not aggressive per se. So I understand it’s very upsetting to be in this position.

But since the first attack she hasn’t been taken adequately seriously and you are now in a position with your family insisting on rehoming (understandable) - so you now don’t have the opportunity to manage this.

There will be very very few suitable homes out there for rehoming. Especially when under time pressure to do so. She is a big powerful dog and could find herself in a bad situation. I’m sorry but give her a big hug and secure her future the responsible way.
 
Jenko109 said:
Well this has gone nuts.

Removing teeth!?

Whatever next.
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It's already prevalent.. Declawing cats, de-nerving horses... someone on my yard got a second, largely unaffected leg de-nerved pretty much at the hock because it was only £250 more than having the single leg.
And that's ignoring cropped ears and cropped tails without medical cause. Banded nuts, banded tails in sheep... we already remove whatever bits of the animals we don't like, why would we stop at claws and ears?
 
Declawing is also illegal in the uk.
And suspensory denerving is very different to generic like they do for navicular, which is also very questionable here.
Thankfully we’re in the UK not USA!
Even AVMA over 20 years ago don’t advise removal of teeth!
www.avma.org

AVMA: removing, reducing teeth as treatment for canine aggression inappropriate

The AVMA has adopted a position against removing or reducing healthy canine teeth as a means of treating aggression in dogs.
www.avma.org www.avma.org
 
Exasperated said:
There is another, excellent solution, altho I don’t know whether UK vets will cooperate - they ought, if the alternative is destruction.
Relatives in Chile: with a very large, mastiff-y type of dog (among others) that was 99% ‘lovely’, but also killed a neighbour’s spaniel, and badly bit a delivery person. So, was not really that ‘lovely’ after all.
They had all her teeth drawn, rather than have her shot.
The vet was in full agreement, and worth remembering plenty of unaggressive dogs loose their teeth or have them removed for gum disease, anyway.
Juno lived to be 13 or 14, she was always loud and a bit pushy, but no more trouble other than a lot of slaver.
Might be worth enquiring?
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That option would make me really uncomfortable. I don't think that's an ethical suggestion really.
Its a big think to remove all an animals teeth. One thing if they need removal for the dogs best interest, disease or trauma but I can't see its correct in this kind of situation.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
It's already prevalent.. Declawing cats, de-nerving horses... someone on my yard got a second, largely unaffected leg de-nerved pretty much at the hock because it was only £250 more than having the single leg.
And that's ignoring cropped ears and cropped tails without medical cause. Banded nuts, banded tails in sheep... we already remove whatever bits of the animals we don't like, why would we stop at claws and ears?
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We do, but its not right.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I think one would struggle to find a vet in the UK prepared to undertake that procedure.
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Thank goodness,
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
It's already prevalent.. Declawing cats, de-nerving horses... someone on my yard got a second, largely unaffected leg de-nerved pretty much at the hock because it was only £250 more than having the single leg.
And that's ignoring cropped ears and cropped tails without medical cause. Banded nuts, banded tails in sheep... we already remove whatever bits of the animals we don't like, why would we stop at claws and ears?
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Banding lambs is done for welfare and ethical reasons the other examples you give are not except in some cases de nerving horse- not that it would be an avenue I would take.
 
twiggy2 said:
Thank goodness,

Banding lambs is done for welfare and ethical reasons the other examples you give are not except in some cases de nerving horse- not that it would be an avenue I would take.
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I do understand that, I was being somewhat facetious for the point I realise.
Some procedures being illegal sadly does not prevent it being done en masse! Just look how many cropped dogs there are on the RSPCA dog adoption pages!
 
Totally off topic but I recently became aware of the practice of 'mulesing' sheep. Now very careful where my merino comes from.
I was also told last week of a breeder of Arabian horses in Italy who uses some kind of metal contraption to bind the head of foals to ensure a pronounced dish (and presumably life-long breathing problems).
I hate people.
 
Jenko109 said:
Well this has gone nuts.

Removing teeth!?

Whatever next.
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Would have come next? - after the delivery person was mauled, was due to be shot (which is what I would have done if mine).
At the time, J. was a young bitch, apparently usually very ‘nice’, and the family distraught. De-toothing was to preserve her life (which life proved healthy and fairly lengthy for a big dog). Should they have saved her for that life? Ethics of human animal / interaction? Should any of these dogs ever be bred in the first place?
This is Latin America, no idea how often vets do this; no, I wouldn’t have it done myself; yes, it worked well for them; is it worse than euthanasia for a healthy, young animal? - evidently some international vets think not; my personal view is that unreliable and dangerous dogs (particularly large ones) should not be rehomed, but should be destroyed before they do any more damage - full stop.
Sorry if that upsets the OP, who’s in a very upsetting situation (as J’s owners were).
Jenko109 said:
Well this has gone nuts.

Removing teeth!?

Whatever next.
Click to expand...
 
Exasperated said:
Would have come next? - after the delivery person was mauled, was due to be shot (which is what I would have done if mine).
At the time, J. was a young bitch, apparently usually very ‘nice’, and the family distraught. De-toothing was to preserve her life (which life proved healthy and fairly lengthy for a big dog). Should they have saved her for that life? Ethics of human animal / interaction? Should any of these dogs ever be bred in the first place?
This is Latin America, no idea how often vets do this; no, I wouldn’t have it done myself; yes, it worked well for them; is it worse than euthanasia for a healthy, young animal? - evidently some international vets think not; my personal view is that unreliable and dangerous dogs (particularly large ones) should not be rehomed, but should be destroyed before they do any more damage - full stop.
Sorry if that upsets the OP, who’s in a very upsetting situation (as J’s owners were).
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But this is the UK....
 
Tbf I don't think you can call a dog of a breed known for same sex aggression unreliable for having acted on that same sex aggression. And not having redirected onto people trying to separate the fight, and being okay with strangers, makes her pretty good for a Presa of dodgy genetics.
 
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