HORROR to load - any suggestions?

[cruising_for_you]

I have a lovely connemara mare who we bought in Nov. 2012. When we went to take her home that day she was a terror to box, but we put it down to her never being in a trailer before- only a lorry. She didnt travel well looking up, as she couldnt balance properly, so we decided to take the second half of the partion out (the back part) so she could spread her legs and balance better. This worked and she stopped sweating up, she still didnt walk straight on the box but we worked with her one day (we werent going to a show or anything) to teach her how to load. Took about 2 hours but finally we got her to walk easily onto the box. Then we went to a hunt, all was fine to load. But she is a bit dainty for hunting so we decided not to bring her again.
Then last month when we tried to box her again for measuring to register for the showjumping season- She loaded with a bit of effort, but not that much. Afterwards to get her home- nightmare! When she got out of the box she was not sweated up or breathing heavily or in any way shaken up, but would not get back on it!
We spent the next hour or two trying to get her up, Buckets of food, Coats behind her, a horse before her, front ramp down, horse standing on front ramp, tried backing her in, bringing her up front ramp so she'd travel backwards but nothing worked. In the end we got had to park inches away from a lorry, while a man parked the same distance away from the trailer. He then got an empty bucked and just kept hitting her - hard!- with it. And when I say hard, i mean- hard
Then we were at a show the last day and she was a terror to load. in the end we had to do the same thing as the man, and that got extremely as she ran up the box, almost crushing me. Spent nearly 2 hours getitng her home again, and in the end had to get a man to beat her up with a lunge whip!

We are not bad, mean or abusive people, but this is the ownly way she will get on. She has had her teeth and back checked, and loves to jump! We have tried food, and she is so cunning that she will get on with her front legs, and leave her back legs on the ramp, then back up! She is not a friendly pony, and I do wonder if this has anything to do with it.
It's gotten to the stage where only violence will get her up, which is horrible! Don;t really have enough funds to be taking her off around the country to horse whisperers. Any tips? She is very headstrong, independent mare.
Thank you.

 

[Gerdy]

oh my goodness, you poor things, I have completely been there!

Don't waste a second more with the old tactics of feed/lunge lines/beatings; they don't ultimately get you anywhere, and are horrid for both you and the poor neddy!

Fortunately, I can recommend two wonderful professionals who you could consult and are 100% guaranteed to fix this for you: 1) Richard Maxwell: v expensive to get a direct session, but you can watch his incredible videos on Horse Hero.com, or his dvds/books

2)Jason Webb in Kent - not as expensive as Richard Maxwell and have used him personally, very very good indeed. http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk
Good luck!

 

[ImmyS]

I have a lovely connemara mare who we bought in Nov. 2012. When we went to take her home that day she was a terror to box, but we put it down to her never being in a trailer before- only a lorry. She didnt travel well looking up, as she couldnt balance properly, so we decided to take the second half of the partion out (the back part) so she could spread her legs and balance better. This worked and she stopped sweating up, she still didnt walk straight on the box but we worked with her one day (we werent going to a show or anything) to teach her how to load. Took about 2 hours but finally we got her to walk easily onto the box. Then we went to a hunt, all was fine to load. But she is a bit dainty for hunting so we decided not to bring her again.
Then last month when we tried to box her again for measuring to register for the showjumping season- She loaded with a bit of effort, but not that much. Afterwards to get her home- nightmare! When she got out of the box she was not sweated up or breathing heavily or in any way shaken up, but would not get back on it!
We spent the next hour or two trying to get her up, Buckets of food, Coats behind her, a horse before her, front ramp down, horse standing on front ramp, tried backing her in, bringing her up front ramp so she'd travel backwards but nothing worked. In the end we got had to park inches away from a lorry, while a man parked the same distance away from the trailer. He then got an empty bucked and just kept hitting her - hard!- with it. And when I say hard, i mean- hard
Then we were at a show the last day and she was a terror to load. in the end we had to do the same thing as the man, and that got extremely as she ran up the box, almost crushing me. Spent nearly 2 hours getitng her home again, and in the end had to get a man to beat her up with a lunge whip!

We are not bad, mean or abusive people, but this is the ownly way she will get on. She has had her teeth and back checked, and loves to jump! We have tried food, and she is so cunning that she will get on with her front legs, and leave her back legs on the ramp, then back up! She is not a friendly pony, and I do wonder if this has anything to do with it.
It's gotten to the stage where only violence will get her up, which is horrible! Don;t really have enough funds to be taking her off around the country to horse whisperers. Any tips? She is very headstrong, independent mare.
Thank you.

I know the hitting is a last resort and you are not meaningfully 'beating' her but she is probably beginning to associate a horsebox or trailer etc.. With being beaten and is therefore making the situation worse in the long run. Have you tried putting a lunge line behind her bum? We had a 17hh powerhouse f a warmblood that refused to load, got a lunge line behind the bum and he walked straight in.

 

[MissSBird]

Well she probably now associates the trailer with being hit which isn't going to help. I've had two bad loaders in the past and never hit one. That just isn't the answer.

Stop trying to take her places until you have the problem sorted to a managable degree where resorting to violence is not an option. You are only exasperating the situation by having a destination in mind. That results in stressed owners, and as such stressed horses.

Pick a day when you have lots of time. The first thing you need to keep in mind is that once you start you must not stop. These natives are stubborn creatures, so it's best to not let them win. Then practise loading and unloading, with lots of reward when she does go in. Feed in the trailer, big fuss, then unload and try again. You need to change the mental association of the trailer to a place that is not unpleasant to be.

With my thoroughbred mare, we found the best thing was to quietly wrap lunge ropes round her back end and maintain gentle pressure until she walked on in. With her it got to the point where, on the rare occasion she didn't load, just the sight of a lunge rope would have her go in.

With my fell mare, much more stubborn, we never did crack it perfectly. She always had to put up a bit of an arguement. The rope round the backend only made her worse. In the end, I found a pressure halter was the best for her. Everyone just stood away except me and I would walk her to the ramp. She'd put her front feet on, then stop. At this point I would apply firm pressure on the halter and not release until she stepped forward. Release AS SOON as you get the forward movement as this is the reward.

The fell would sometimes spin her bum round to the side, but do not turn the horse away. They can step up that high with their back legs, and can pivot. Only release pressure on forward movement and that is in itself rewarding them for doing the correct thing. With my fell, who once took 3 hours to load, using this calm, quiet, persistant manner reduced this to 3 stressless minutes each time. We just made sure to leave enough time for these problems so we wern't stressed.

The key is to be quiet, firm and persistant. Practise at home until you have found which way suits her, and then factor in loading time to your competition preparations.

 

[bounce]

To me it sounds from your post that you are only trying to load when you are going somewhere. Apologies if this is not the case. I think you would be better to have loading practice every day. You want to take it slowly in stages and feed your mare's dinner first on the ramp and then gradually increase the distance that she has to get into the trailer until she is finally eating her dinner in the trailer.
This will at least help in reassuring her the trailer is not a nasty place where she is going to get beaten when she approaches it.

I'm sure you will get more experienced replies than mine but the approach above is what I would start with.

 

[cruising_for_you]

I know the hitting is a last resort and you are not meaningfully 'beating' her but she is probably beginning to associate a horsebox or trailer etc.. With being beaten and is therefore making the situation worse in the long run. Have you tried putting a lunge line behind her bum? We had a 17hh powerhouse f a warmblood that refused to load, got a lunge line behind the bum and he walked straight in.

We have tried to use a lunge line, does not solve anything, though when she moves back it can get dangerous, even when 2 strong people are each side.

 

[ImmyS]

What does she actually do? Just plant? Will she go on the ramp at all? Does she swing from side to side?etc...

 

[cruising_for_you]

Well she probably now associates the trailer with being hit which isn't going to help. I've had two bad loaders in the past and never hit one. That just isn't the answer.

Stop trying to take her places until you have the problem sorted to a managable degree where resorting to violence is not an option. You are only exasperating the situation by having a destination in mind. That results in stressed owners, and as such stressed horses.

Pick a day when you have lots of time. The first thing you need to keep in mind is that once you start you must not stop. These natives are stubborn creatures, so it's best to not let them win. Then practise loading and unloading, with lots of reward when she does go in. Feed in the trailer, big fuss, then unload and try again. You need to change the mental association of the trailer to a place that is not unpleasant to be.

With my thoroughbred mare, we found the best thing was to quietly wrap lunge ropes round her back end and maintain gentle pressure until she walked on in. With her it got to the point where, on the rare occasion she didn't load, just the sight of a lunge rope would have her go in.

With my fell mare, much more stubborn, we never did crack it perfectly. She always had to put up a bit of an arguement. The rope round the backend only made her worse. In the end, I found a pressure halter was the best for her. Everyone just stood away except me and I would walk her to the ramp. She'd put her front feet on, then stop. At this point I would apply firm pressure on the halter and not release until she stepped forward. Release AS SOON as you get the forward movement as this is the reward.

The fell would sometimes spin her bum round to the side, but do not turn the horse away. They can step up that high with their back legs, and can pivot. Only release pressure on forward movement and that is in itself rewarding them for doing the correct thing. With my fell, who once took 3 hours to load, using this calm, quiet, persistant manner reduced this to 3 stressless minutes each time. We just made sure to leave enough time for these problems so we wern't stressed.

The key is to be quiet, firm and persistant. Practise at home until you have found which way suits her, and then factor in loading time to your competition preparations.

This is exactly why I am calling for help. We've only had three incidents but it's getting worse and I know violence is not the answer. MissSBird, you're fell mare sounds exactly like mine! Her front legs get on and then pivot.
She's learnt that going half way on the box then pulling out means buckets of food for her so of course she'll keep doing it! I'll definately see about the pressure halter - it wasn't one of those expensive Monty Roberts ones was it? or just a plain one?

 

[cruising_for_you]

What does she actually do? Just plant? Will she go on the ramp at all? Does she swing from side to side?etc...

She will stop about 2m away from the ramp, and plant herself and just not move. If someone goes behind her she will swing her bum (she is a kicker too) If someone goes behind her and does get her moving she will go off to the side of the ramp and pull away that way. She gets on the ramp with food but knows when she is half way inside the trailer if she pulls out she will get more. She is not scared of the trailer but the stuff we do to get her on flusters her. Hope this helps.

 

[Nic]

When you have all the time in the world, wait her out. Mine was terrible to load when I bought him, in his 5 years he'd travelled once so it wasn't surprising. We spent months where he only got fed in the lorry. If he wanted his tea he went on.

It might have taken 3hours of me sitting on the ramp with a book, but you need to make sure they get bored before you do.

Patience is the key.

 

[ImmyS]

When you have all the time in the world, wait her out. Mine was terrible to load when I bought him, in his 5 years he'd travelled once so it wasn't surprising. We spent months where he only got fed in the lorry. If he wanted his tea he went on.

It might have taken 3hours of me sitting on the ramp with a book, but you need to make sure they get bored before you do.

Patience is the key.

The way she behaves I would do this, wait her out. Also can you block the sides of the ramps, with something like jump wings and poles so she can't evade by going to the side? The key is also pressure and release. If you ask her to move forward and she does even slightly then release all pressure, praise then ask again, again releasing all pressure when she makes the slightest effort to move forwards

 

[MissSBird]

This is exactly why I am calling for help. We've only had three incidents but it's getting worse and I know violence is not the answer. MissSBird, you're fell mare sounds exactly like mine! Her front legs get on and then pivot.
She's learnt that going half way on the box then pulling out means buckets of food for her so of course she'll keep doing it! I'll definately see about the pressure halter - it wasn't one of those expensive Monty Roberts ones was it? or just a plain one?

Stubborn natives!

The problem with pressure halters is that they all do slightly different things so it can be a bit of a trial and error situation to find the one that works for that particular horse.

I purchased a Richard Maxwell halter for my naughty connie, for other issues than loading which is one thing he does fine. It puts pressure on the nose and pole. Was fairly useless for my connie. Skeptical me decided to try it one day for the fell loading (as it couldn't make it worse) and best decision I ever made! Worked fab for her.

I purchased a dually for the connie and it works brilliantly for him. I also know someone who swears by them for loading her welsh D. But, when I tried it on the fell it was useless.

The good thing about pressure halters is that they have a good resale value. There tend to be ones available regularly on ebay, and you can always re-sell if it is useless.

(and I am noticing an awful native pony trend in this post!)

 

[MissSBird]

Having re-read the added posts, I would also reiterate the not turning her away thing. It really does sound very similar to my fell (who like your mare is totally calm and relaxed in the trailer). I took the attitude that she could get on from whatever position she ended up in, which often meant clambouring up from the side of the ramp, pivoting on it, and then walking in. If you could block the ramp with something very solid, even on one side, that would help give you an advantage over this.

I also wouldn't reward for one step at a time under these circumstances. She can have the reward when she is fully in, but not for half sucesses. Natives are too smart for their own good.

 

[Nic]

Having re-read the added posts, I would also reiterate the not turning her away thing. It really does sound very similar to my fell (who like your mare is totally calm and relaxed in the trailer). I took the attitude that she could get on from whatever position she ended up in, which often meant clambouring up from the side of the ramp, pivoting on it, and then walking in. If you could block the ramp with something very solid, even on one side, that would help give you an advantage over this.

I also wouldn't reward for one step at a time under these circumstances. She can have the reward when she is fully in, but not for half sucesses. Natives are too smart for their own good.

Ditto, no reward for a foot on. That's her training you! All or nothing. Also good point about blocking sides of ramp.

 

[angelish]

oh my goodness, you poor things, I have completely been there!

Don't waste a second more with the old tactics of feed/lunge lines/beatings; they don't ultimately get you anywhere, and are horrid for both you and the poor neddy!

Fortunately, I can recommend two wonderful professionals who you could consult and are 100% guaranteed to fix this for you: 1) Richard Maxwell: v expensive to get a direct session, but you can watch his incredible videos on Horse Hero.com, or his dvds/books

2)Jason Webb in Kent - not as expensive as Richard Maxwell and have used him personally, very very good indeed. http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk
Good luck!

oh my goodness the poor horse !!
stop beating the **** out of it and firstly try and find out why she will not load , ie - is there something wrong with the trailer (its possible) , or the driving or the horse
you are going to have to spend money on some professional help to solve this problem because if you keep hitting her she will one day hit you back and will turn sour and as others have said , she will now think , trailer = a good beating

re pressure halters , it doesn't matter what type you get if you don't learn to use it properly it will not work
if you get really good with pressure and release you won't need a pressure halter you could simply use a piece of the horses hair to pull and release

 

[cruising_for_you]

I'd just like to point out we have only used something on her twice to get her up, and that was only when we were in need (measuring, and a pre-booked show) Other shows we have tried and gave up because it was not worth the hassle of flustering her when we didnt have time to burn.

Will definately get the jump wings and line them up and try train her at home (I had planned to already, after I got tips on her!) , alot have said about the pressure halter and they are not that expensive so might as well give her a go!
Don't know if I could wait her out as Im sure she'd just get impatient and start pulling me away!
There is nothing wrong with the box, it is safe, clean, padded with bedding. We don't drive fast. The only reason i could see is that she does not travel well but the last irst times she has traelled she did so without problems - when we finally got her in the box!

 

[AmyMay]

Perhaps simply do some work with her at home daily. Feeding her twice a day in the box. Beating her on is definately not the way to go.

 

[Dry Rot]

The best thing we ever did here was to build a round pen. It is so useful for so many things. The trailer can be backed up to a second gate and ponies can be loaded straight from the pen. So the trailer tends to be parked there when not in use and it takes a few seconds to open the gate and drop the ramp for some loading practice.

Basically, a bucket of hard feed is placed in the trailer and the net filled with good hay. The reluctant loader is gently worked in the pen. The moment the pony puts a foot on the ramp (and I've natives too!), the trainer turns his back and walks away. After, say, 20 seconds, the pony is moved off the ramp and worked again.

Each time the pony goes on the ramp, the pressure is removed (turn your back and walk away) for a length of time directly proportional to the distance up the ramp. The further in it goes, the longer the rest. Everything must be done quietly and calmly and if the horse wants to move off the ramp or out of the trailer, that's fine - but it is back to work again!

After a while, the pony gets the message that going into the trailer means a rest. If it goes all the way in, it then finds the hard feet and hay net. That's your cue to quietly withdraw and go and have a cup of tea leaving the horse to enjoy its feed!

The great thing about this method is that the pony associates the trailer with good things. A new girl remarked she had never been on a yard where horses literally pull towards a trailer! If the ramp is down, they will often load themselves!

Lastly, I can understand how frustration can lead to the use of heavy handed methods. I saw a horse beaten on to a lorry just once. After making my feelings absolutely clear, I left the scene as I could stand no more. The horse was dead two days later, presumably from stress. If I saw such a thing again, I would get straight on to WHW and they can listen to the excuses.

 

[ImmyS]

I'd just like to point out we have only used something on her twice to get her up, and that was only when we were in need (measuring, and a pre-booked show) Other shows we have tried and gave up because it was not worth the hassle of flustering her when we didnt have time to burn.

Will definately get the jump wings and line them up and try train her at home (I had planned to already, after I got tips on her!) , alot have said about the pressure halter and they are not that expensive so might as well give her a go!
Don't know if I could wait her out as Im sure she'd just get impatient and start pulling me away!
There is nothing wrong with the box, it is safe, clean, padded with bedding. We don't drive fast. The only reason i could see is that she does not travel well but the last irst times she has traelled she did so without problems - when we finally got her in the box!

You could buy a simple cheap rope halter with a long rope, not necessarily a control or pressure halter but it does give more clear concise aid (plus it is cheap! ) .. Where other people have said don't praise until you have got her right on, I do disagree with this, after all wars are won with small battle victories not by slogging it to the end where both sides end up stressed and peed off. By praising I literally mean a simple release. So ask her to move forwards with tension on the rope any movement forward quickly release then ask again, horses soon learn by pressure and release. Also I know if someone was trying to make me do something I really did no want to do with no encouragement or compromise I sure as hell wouldn't do it so why would a horse?

 

[Nic]

You could buy a simple cheap rope halter with a long rope, not necessarily a control or pressure halter but it does give more clear concise aid (plus it is cheap! ) .. Where other people have said don't praise until you have got her right on, I do disagree with this, after all wars are won with small battle victories not by slogging it to the end where both sides end up stressed and peed off. By praising I literally mean a simple release. So ask her to move forwards with tension on the rope any movement forward quickly release then ask again, horses soon learn by pressure and release. Also I know if someone was trying to make me do something I really did no want to do with no encouragement or compromise I sure as hell wouldn't do it so why would a horse?

Not saying don't praise, just don't feed every time pony puts 1 foot on the ramp, retreats & repeats.

 

[ImmyS]

Not saying don't praise, just don't feed every time pony puts 1 foot on the ramp, retreats & repeats.

I didn't say praise with food! That's just asking for trouble haha. That's bribery not training the release is the praise.

 

[stencilface]

We had our instructor, a kind of nh, parelli type alongside her teaching. You need to start with groundwork away from the lorry, away from stress and hitting. In the school/ yard using a schooling whip and tap her side to get her moving forward. Start very lightly and increase the pressure (ie gradually smack harder!) until she moves forward, then reward her by stopping with the whip. Then make her stand and start again until she is moving from the first lightest touch. Practise on both sides of her o she understands that the aid can come from both sides, this is an aid using a whip, not a punishment. Make sure she isn't fearful of the whip by running it over her body

Then use the same method when you get to the ramp, don't have any helpers or any other distractions, just you and the aid. Start lightly, and increase the pressure. When she moves forward, reward by stopping with the whip, then when she stops start again with the aid, again at the lightest end. Don't let her turn away from the ramp,if she swings her sides, use the whip on her other side to move her straight. Don't get annoyed (hard I know!) stay calm and keep going, it will happen eventually!

This is how we got my sisters muleish, stubborn 3yo to load, he just needed to be asked the question in a way he understood. Honestly if you'd told me this I wouldn't have believed you, but it does work for the stubborn ones! But you need to do the groundwork first, make sure she understands that

 

[snooples]

Tbh I dont see the big deal in hitting her if she is just doing it to be bold.
If a horse stopped at a jump out of pure boldness it would be reprimanded and I see no issue in doing it with a horse that wont load, after lunge ropes etc have been tried.

When I look at threads on here sometimes I wonder how anyone ever managed with horses before NH

 

[angelish]

Tbh I dont see the big deal in hitting her if she is just doing it to be bold.
If a horse stopped at a jump out of pure boldness it would be reprimanded and I see no issue in doing it with a horse that wont load, after lunge ropes etc have been tried.

When I look at threads on here sometimes I wonder how anyone ever managed with horses before NH

i have no problem with reprimanding horses
but standing behind a horse trying to load it by beating it with a bucket or a lunge whip or whatever else simply creates a horse who will then focus on what is going on behind it and then not go forward = hence load
even the nicest horse treated like this will eventually just start kicking out at whoever is behind it
bullying the horse might work once or twice but it is not the answer to the problem

by all means a horse who has colic and needs to get to horsepital or die for example use any means possible to get it in even a cattle prod

op if you want to see how your horse reacts to a controller halter try simply clipping your lead rope on the other side of your normal halter and then putting it over her nose and back through the other side and she how she responds to that if you do not want to spend the money on a pressure halter

 

[snooples]

Ok yes I didnt mean beat up the horse continuosly, I should have expanded on my point which I will do now. Iv seen this technique work on countless horses with barrier problems.
The horse needs to learn to walk forwards when it is told to, maybe practicing this on the lunge first would help. A helper and a longish stick ( think schooling whip length)
The horse should walk forwards when asked, if she does not get your helper to tap the stick gently on the ground behind (not directly behind of course) until horse moves forward, stop immediately with stick if the horse makes a forward movement and praise. If the horse doesnt move forwards, get the helper a little bit closer and tapping the stick harder on the ground, if this doesnt work slowly tap horse with stick until she moves forward.
Eventually horse will learn that tapping a stick means a forward movement (and hopefully eventually just your voice).
Practice as much as you can in your spare time just walking her all the way through the box using this technique and I ave no doubt it will work!

 

[Nic]

I didn't say praise with food! That's just asking for trouble haha. That's bribery not training the release is the praise.

And no one said don't praise

 

[hotdog]

what about contacting this guy?

Think there was a thread on here or another forum recently where they had him out to help with loading their horse with lots of success.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh4XENWCdRc

 

[ImmyS]

Ditto, no reward for a foot on.

Reward is praise is it not?

 

[be positive]

i have no problem with reprimanding horses
but standing behind a horse trying to load it by beating it with a bucket or a lunge whip or whatever else simply creates a horse who will then focus on what is going on behind it and then not go forward = hence load
even the nicest horse treated like this will eventually just start kicking out at whoever is behind it
bullying the horse might work once or twice but it is not the answer to the problem

by all means a horse who has colic and needs to get to horsepital or die for example use any means possible to get it in even a cattle prod

op if you want to see how your horse reacts to a controller halter try simply clipping your lead rope on the other side of your normal halter and then putting it over her nose and back through the other side and she how she responds to that if you do not want to spend the money on a pressure halter

The comment about getting a horse to hospital loading by any means brought back memories of the little horse I had that was an unreliable loader, he would not go on the lorry to hospital, it really was life or death he had 2 ops for colic once there, he was finally hauled in after about an hour by every person we could round up to help and we really had come to the last attempt before giving up and having him pts.
The amazing thing was that after his lifesaving trip he always loaded with no problems for the rest of his life, he must have learnt something that day.

No help to the OP but teaching your pony to yield to pressure does work if you take time and she responds, it is worth spending a little time each day to work on her until the loading is really established before going anywhere, then just a few short trips, even to unload somewhereand hack home would make the travelling less of a battle.

 

[angelish]

The comment about getting a horse to hospital loading by any means brought back memories of the little horse I had that was an unreliable loader, he would not go on the lorry to hospital, it really was life or death he had 2 ops for colic once there, he was finally hauled in after about an hour by every person we could round up to help and we really had come to the last attempt before giving up and having him pts.
The amazing thing was that after his lifesaving trip he always loaded with no problems for the rest of his life, he must have learnt something that day.

No help to the OP but teaching your pony to yield to pressure does work if you take time and she responds, it is worth spending a little time each day to work on her until the loading is really established before going anywhere, then just a few short trips, even to unload somewhereand hack home would make the travelling less of a battle.

he was a lucky boy , i used to do loading problems and have had many panicky phone calls for help when a horse has been poorly but you can't faff about with a controller halter at times like that they really need to just get in by any means possible
op i hope you get your horse sorted out but i would recommend getting some profesional help , it really is important to have them load without a problem in case they do have to go to hospital
i would still also suggest getting your trailer checked over/serviced as there IS a reason she won't load and you need to find out why , that is the first step to solving the problem
iv'e known a simple little spring needing replacing cause an other wise happy traveler to become unsettled
good luck