Horse Abattoir Film Reveals Welfare Breaches

I took "licenced" to mean licenced to slaughter horses for human consumption. MHS Horse Disposal, AFAIK, do emergency slaughter of casualties e.g at point-to-points, road accidents etc, for use as dog meat. They provide a very valuable service.
 
Tiggy1 said:
Thats exactly what i was going to say. Trading Standards should be doing there job. They come down hard enough on farmers who do genuinely care for their livestock.
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My point exactly. I used to frequent the beeston sales fortnightly, witnessed many unfortunate creatures that should NOT have been allowed to go through the sale, whilst also observing an official in uniform standing by.
 
My point was notwithstanding the nationality of the vet surely they should be up to date and conversant with UK rules and regs.
Seems to me that the current state of affairs is sadly lacking and who knows...the other equine abattoirs may be caught out some time in the future. Time and care is money and quite a few have in the past cited Red Lion as a decent place for a horse to end up.

What worries me is the 'method' that the other main abattoir uses is strange.... seems to lack stability and looks very awkward. I have no gripe against slaughtermen or women at all but surely a handgun would be more accurate? Maybe an expert could help me with this.

More than one horse together? mmmm maybe with a vet PTS and I mean PTS as opposed to destroyed. But two or more in a kill box ? I cant fathom the humanity in that.
 
I saw a horse not put down properly at a point to point in Ireland once. The poor animal was covered in a tarpaulin and then got up and careered around, obviously seriously injured to begin with anyway. This would lead me to think that apart from the appalling cruelty involved in this incident, it is much safer for everyone if animals are put down swiftly and humanely. On another point, we once took a horse to Straffan abattoir and they were excellent – sympathetic and put him down for us there and then. There was no stunning. I am shocked this happens. This was over fifteen years ago though, not sure what the story is now. This also raises another issue with regard to qualifications and care. It was a vet at the point to point, not sure about the abattoir. Intelligence, humanity and care are different things, and not confined to qualifications that people hold.
Finally I would like to make one more point – with regard to communicating with the BHS and other bodies I do not wish anybody to do so on my behalf on this forum. I do not properly understand or share the views of people I barely know, and am perfectly capable of communicating myself
 
What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards. I agree.
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Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this. I don't agree.
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Would you mind expanding on this please Alec?

Depending on what part of that statement you don't agree with (unless you disagree with all of it of course) I was wondering how you would argue either that the Red Lion was operating to the highest of welfare standards or whether you could justify the findings and footage found at the Red Lion that have been released (That IMO, are not justifiable, no matter what angle you come from or clever spin you put on it).

Apologies if I've misunderstood, I am just curious to know how in any way, that statement isn't true.
 
beth21 said:
Would you mind expanding on this please Alec?

Depending on what part of that statement you don't agree with (unless you disagree with all of it of course) I was wondering how you would argue either that the Red Lion was operating to the highest of welfare standards or whether you could justify the findings and footage found at the Red Lion that have been released (That IMO, are not justifiable, no matter what angle you come from or clever spin you put on it).

Apologies if I've misunderstood, I am just curious to know how in any way, that statement isn't true.
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Assuming that you read my post, in its entirety, you will have seen that I found some of those scenes as distressing as did others.

The point with which I disagreed, strongly, was that there was no justification, or mitigation for such behaviour, and whilst there isn't, it should be understood that if we as horse owning people, blandly stand by and tell others what we expect of them, whilst at the same time hamstringing their efforts, then it's WE who need to be prepared to shoulder our share of the responsibility. That's every single one of us.

For those who are irritated by the above passage, and if you don't agree with me, then take steps to rectify the lunacy of our current situation.

We are in this unholy mess, and it's all of our own making. By tacit agreement with our charities and our government, we have brought this situation upon ourselves.

Time for change, I'd suggest.

Alec.
 
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I see your point Alec, looking at the wider picture of things. But I don't think that is in any way an excuse for what is seen in the footage.
 
There is no excuse, no justification whatsoever, for the sheer cruelty and inhumanity evidenced in this video. It makes me feel ashamed to be human. I can only imagine that the person responsible has become de-humanised by the environment he is working in, and that makes me suspect his behaviour was considered acceptable by his peers. Peer pressure has amazing power....for good or for bad.
 
You make some very good points Alec, no one can dispute that.

I have to agree with Moomin though, there's no excuse for the way those horses were treated. The people who are caught in that footage, are the only ones responsible for their actions towards those horses. There's no excuse for that.

Although I have to say that by acting as a responsible horse owner, who has one horse (a rescue I might add) that will be with me and well cared for until the end of his life, I feel as if I am already doing something to help, no matter how small it might seem. So I wouldn't agree that I'm 'blandly standing by'. I'm doing what I can which is better than nothing.

We can all play a part in helping to fix this in that we can all teach and practice responsible horse ownership and breeding. But we aren't all responsible for causing it, IMO.
 
beth21 said:
You make some very good points Alec, no one can dispute that.

I have to agree with Moomin though, there's no excuse for the way those horses were treated. The people who are caught in that footage, are the only ones responsible for their actions towards those horses. There's no excuse for that.

Although I have to say that by acting as a responsible horse owner, who has one horse (a rescue I might add) that will be with me and well cared for until the end of his life, I feel as if I am already doing something to help, no matter how small it might seem. So I wouldn't agree that I'm 'blandly standing by'. I'm doing what I can which is better than nothing.

We can all play a part in helping to fix this in that we can all teach and practice responsible horse ownership and breeding. But we aren't all responsible for causing it, IMO.
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100% agree. It is the attitude of irresponsible horse owners and breeders that needs changing, and people such as Clwyd Davies who are indiscriminately allowing horses to continuously breed uncontrolled who need tackling.
 
Moomin1 said:
I see your point Alec, looking at the wider picture of things. But I don't think that is in any way an excuse for what is seen in the footage.
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I haven't explained my self, too well, I apologise. Rather than "Excusing" the awful scenes, I would hope that if the "Reasons" for the shameful events are explained and understood, then rather than telling the abattoir staff AND their employers, that their conduct isn't acceptable, then we can, by changing the regime, improve the lot of all those involved in the euthanasia of horses, and obviously, the horses themselves.

Changing the regime wont happen by decree, but it will happen if we can reinstate a trade in horse meat, and then we increase the value of the animal, and by so doing we encourage others to treat them with respect, there will be financial investment in those accepting plants, and we will have a win-win situation.

Currently, horses simply aren't worth bothering with, so nobody does. Telling them that they should care isn't the answer. Give those involved in the slaughter process a reason to treat their victims with respect, and that's what they'll do.

jendie said:
........ Peer pressure has amazing power....for good or for bad.
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I agree with you, entirely. I have a chum who manages a large abattoir which deals with the more usual cattle, sheep and pigs. When we saw the disgraceful conduct from Cheales, last year, I asked him what he thought. He told me that had anyone in his employ behaved as those men did on film, his own staff would have turned on them, and they would have been given instant dismissal. It never happens within his plant.

Cruelty to animals at the point of slaughter is counterproductive and costly. It slows down the process and reduces the efficiency of any processing plant.

Horses, put quite simply, aren't like other animals. Cattle, sheep and pigs when they go through an abattoir, are effectively living as they always have, they're travelling up raceways, the cattle, whilst going into a shooting box, have been in handling systems which are known as a crush, but it isn't that simple with horses. If we're to be humane, then there needs to be purpose made and designed and importantly, Modern, handling systems installed, but without an end commercial value for the products of their labours, then no one with half a braincell is going to stick hundreds of thousands of pounds into a system, simply out of the goodness of their hearts, are they?

With a "Quid pro quo" approach, we may make progress. Without it, we will stay as we are.

Alec.
 
Mmm, I'm not convinced by that Alec. It would be nice to think that every single member of staff at an abbattoir would treat them with respect and humanity, should they hold more of a value, however I don't think the world works like that. Look at the Bernard Matthews charade. There are bad eggs in every business or organisation that will not for whatever reason follow procedures or protocol.

In my opinion there needs to be put in place a much more strict monitoring of abbattoirs in light of this, and only then will things like this become a lot less likely to take place.
 
Firstly, in no way am I condoning or excusing the appalling conduct shown at the abattoir. So please don’t jump up and down in outrage at this post.

However, as truly awful as it is, it should be remembered that it is an incredibly hard filthy job that the majority of us would find impossible to do.

As such, it will at times, attract the sort of person who will not care about the equine welfare. And frankly, given the level of over-breeding and the grim condition of some horses sent there, it seems a little sanctimonious of us to expect them to.

I can’t answer for the walloping them with bars or ignoring serious health issues, but prior to this, I have never seen them stun more than one horse at a time.

I’m going to agree with Alec that finding good compassionate staff is the way to ensure standards are kept. Based on the images of the horse who appears to regain consciousness I will speculate that work has started before all the staff/vet were present (as there is very little blood evident, and the trolleys used to dress the carcass are not upright, ready for use).

The abattoir used to employ at least 2 long-term members of staff who if they had been present, would have acted very swiftly on a failed stun (and on one occasion have done so), and prevented that from happening.

Its never been the best of places, or been equal to the respect and care shown at Potters, but there has clearly been an almighty failure somewhere and quite rightly needs addressing
 
paisley said:
Firstly, in no way am I condoning or excusing the appalling conduct shown at the abattoir. So please don’t jump up and down in outrage at this post.

However, as truly awful as it is, it should be remembered that it is an incredibly hard filthy job that the majority of us would find impossible to do.

As such, it will at times, attract the sort of person who will not care about the equine welfare. And frankly, given the level of over-breeding and the grim condition of some horses sent there, it seems a little sanctimonious of us to expect them to.

I can’t answer for the walloping them with bars or ignoring serious health issues, but prior to this, I have never seen them stun more than one horse at a time.

I’m going to agree with Alec that finding good compassionate staff is the way to ensure standards are kept. Based on the images of the horse who appears to regain consciousness I will speculate that work has started before all the staff/vet were present (as there is very little blood evident, and the trolleys used to dress the carcass are not upright, ready for use).

The abattoir used to employ at least 2 long-term members of staff who if they had been present, would have acted very swiftly on a failed stun (and on one occasion have done so), and prevented that from happening.

Its never been the best of places, or been equal to the respect and care shown at Potters, but there has clearly been an almighty failure somewhere and quite rightly needs addressing
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Well said Paisley and welcome.
 
Thank you! Just an additional thought, this abattoir would also do cows, and I'm pretty sure the cameras would have been in place for a long time. It would be good to know if the mistreatment was extended to these as well, and if so, why haven't we been told?
 
typical farmer there Alec-blaming it all on the eu and saying that you can't possibly do anything unless you see clear pound signs. The question here is not profitability but the human ability to treat animals correctly. All that red tape you talk about -some of it is rubbish i'm sure. Some of it has a very valid reason - such as the welfare 'red tape' that has been broken here. none of the things that have happened here have a reason. it shoudl not happen in any other species either, it just so happens that the charity with an interest have an interest in horses.
 
it's also easy to blame everyone else for the men doing a poor job-they have a resonsibility and just because they aren't being given 6 figure salaries for it or being applauded at every turn does not excuse their actions. other slaughtermen do their job properly.
 
Permanent cctv in slaughterhouses is the only way to combat this and should I think be there. the OV in this case should be struck off as there is no way he was not aware.
 
slaughtermen don't care how much an aniimal is worth when they shoot it-be it a cow, or horse or sheep. They are concerned with getting them up the chute and on the hook asap.
 
Susie, regardless of pay, I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.
 
MrPotts said:
Susie, regardless of pay, I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.
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This is the bit that interests me. What type are these workers? I do feel it's not in any way a pleasant job and do the workers get support and regular training/debriefing etc? Without some sort of support and reward for good practice it must be very easy to slip into a less respectful way of handling.
Those of us who eat meat rely on these people to do something most of us would find abhorrent/impossible and I'm sure these workers aren't sadistic people who get pleasure from the job in itself.
 
i to think we are all responsible for this situation, in some way, in the sense that we need to fight all the way until the horse gets a better deal allround, its our responsibilty to make certain that all abuse at whatever level stops.
 
amandap said:
This is the bit that interests me. What type are these workers? I do feel it's not in any way a pleasant job and do the workers get support and regular training/debriefing etc? Without some sort of support and reward for good practice it must be very easy to slip into a less respectful way of handling.
Those of us who eat meat rely on these people to do something most of us would find abhorrent/impossible and I'm sure these workers aren't sadistic people who get pleasure from the job in itself.
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Thank you for that.
 
MrPotts said:
......., I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.
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I don't agree with you. Are only a certain "Type" attracted to the trade of undertaker? Are morticians born as a "Type"? I'd doubt that they are, but I'll accept that as in many walks of life, the environment in which we live and work can shape us as people. I farm and would refer to myself as a "Stockman". I wasn't born that way, it's what I became.

Competent and skilled slaughtermen aren't necessarily of a "Type", and as in all walks of life and in all trades, we will find a wide spectrum of individuals. They aren't murders, in the main, I promise you!!

Alec.
 
Well, I have only had first hand experience with a few slaughter men. One was my eldest sister's boyfriend when she was in her mid-teens. He was very bad news. In fact his entire family were well known in the village and not in a good way. Two of his nephews were horrible bullies. I can wholeheartedly attest to that. Those two boys, their other siblings, and their cousins were renowned for being trouble makers. Their parents/grandparents would often witness their bad behaviour and do nothing about it. My sister's boyfriend was very scruffy in appearance (what my sister saw in him I'll never, ever know), was controlling, and verbally abusive. When my sister finally saw sense and split up with him, he put a big dent in the family car, and threatened to kill her. We never got the police involved for fear of what he and his nasty family would do.

I also met some of his co-workers and they were equally as vile. I dread to think of what they did to the poor animals they killed.

As for Red Lion. Isn't it a shame that it took an undercover film to catch those pathetic excuses of human beings. What the hell was the abattoir doing that it never picked up on those barbaric practices themselves? Do they regularly monitor their workers? Do they screen them thoroughly before they employ them? Do they have to pass intensive animal handling tests? How much training goes into their weapon handling? Why did Red Lion issue a ridiculous statement saying that they kept those three ponies together in the stun box because they were friends? I don't know that much about equine behaviour, but I thought that was beyond inhumane.

In light of this, and other exposes on the treatment of slaughter animals, I think it is high time that CCTV was put into every abattoir and a three strike law implemented. If a slaughter house is seen to have two instances of animals being treated inhumanely, then a third will see immediate suspension of activities at the abattoir and possible closure. Something has to be done to stop this abuse. Letting the abattoirs off lightly is going to do nothing. Should abattoirs not be responsible for ensuring that their staff are fit for purpose and that they continually do an efficient job of handling, stunning, and killing in a humane manner?
 
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