Horse aggression

[Jericho]

Has anyone come across this before? Recently bought a 5 year old mare, very green, only just started under saddle last couple of months. adorable temperament, very sweet and tries very hard. Turned out very happily with others. No other issues except she is prone to a bit of nappy and tantrums when asked to stand on a hack or is feeling a bit insecure leaving the yard but all ok and just put this down to being young. However the main problem is she hast other horses coming near her when being ridden and will reverse and double barrel repeatedly anything within 10 feet of her even field mates that she adores and are very non confrontational. Of course this is very unacceptable and was very surprising bearing in mind she is fine when unridden?
Any ideas ? Have risked two other ponies being led out with her now and not keen to do it again as it’s very quick and random. Fine if they stay either far in front or far behind but anything close particularly to side she can not deal with her.

 

[PurBee]

Is she low in pecking order of her herd mates when turned-out?

If she is, her behaviour makes sense from the point of view that if another horse comes near, who is usually more dominant in their herd behaviour, she knows in the field she would naturally move out of their way, but while ridden, she cannot because her rider controls her mouth, head, neck, body movements. She freaks and ‘gets in there first’ with some body aggression to say ‘i cant move from you,(because i dont have full control when ridden) so you stay away’.

A lower horse while in a herd in the field would automatically move away when more dominant horses move to their area, but when ridden, they cant exhibit the natural herd behaviours. Maybe she’s having trouble, because she’s freshly backed, between having a ‘ridden’ mindset, (listen to your riders direction only and ignore herd dynamics) and her usual ‘herd rank’ mindset?

If she’s one of the more dominant mares of the herd, i can understand her behaviour being aggressive too, as she’s used to horses moving away from her, not moving toward her, standing beside her. Etiquette of grazing is dominant mare says where she wants to go, other horses move away from her grass, but follow her general direction, while keeping a ’respectful’ distance.

At 5 being started to ride, unless she‘s had lots of ground handling to get her mind used to ditching herd ethics when humans are around handling her and other horses, she’s likely dominated by herd behaviour and thinking, even while ridden, because she’s freshly backed. It should go if that’s the case. Slowly as she rides out more, with other horses, they’ll likely get closer and closer gradually, and she’ll be fine with it.
Its very early days of being ridden, so its very new for her. Youre a new owner too so she hasnt got full knowledge of your dependability to keep her safe….but with time the confidence in you and being ridden should naturally increase.

Thinking about it, she’s in a new home, new environment, someone is suddenly sitting on her back directing her movements, its all a lot of newness for a relatively young horse to take on. Especially if she’s been mostly left in a herd for 5yrs to mature. When flooded with newness the inevitable explosive reaction can be expected.

She could want physical body space to have the freedom to react if she’s insecure with new surroundings/ off yard hacking, and insecure being ridden. A pony in front and behind could make an insecure horse feel hemmed-in. Add a pony to the side and she has no escape route should she need it. It points to some low confidence, and the strangeness of being newly backed and ridden, which in time, with her learning she’s safe around other ridden horses and can rely on you, will resolve itself.

Just some behavioural mindset thoughts that popped up with your post, if health is A1 with your horse.

Other considerations would be health checks - back/neck and teeth checks if she’s reactive only when ridden, alone or in company, and a sweetheart when unridden. If she’s grumpy in the school/arena work alone aswell i’d suspect health issue. Is she girthy when saddling up? Ulcers possible?

 

[Caol Ila]

A mate of mine has a horse who is absolutely fine when hacked out with other horses in his herd, but hard work when he's ridden with horses who he doesn't live with (i.e. mine). He doesn't want to be lead horse on a hack, but he is good to hack when he's out with braver members of his own herd. It gets messy when he's with geldings he doesn't live with (he has some respect for mares) because he acts aggressively when they are in front or beside him, but spooky and spinny when he's in the lead. My gelding does not live with him, and we have had to resort to some serious evasive maneuvers. And that's with Fin being a very socially aware horse and giving this guy a wide berth.

I think he has the unfortunate personality traits of being a socially dominant horse but at the same time, a very insecure horse. If I could do one thing with this horse, it would be more groundwork to get him focusing on me more than the other geldings.

 

[Jericho]

Is she low in pecking order of her herd mates when turned-out?

If she is, her behaviour makes sense from the point of view that if another horse comes near, who is usually more dominant in their herd behaviour, she knows in the field she would naturally move out of their way, but while ridden, she cannot because her rider controls her mouth, head, neck, body movements. She freaks and ‘gets in there first’ with some body aggression to say ‘i cant move from you,(because i dont have full control when ridden) so you stay away’.

A lower horse while in a herd in the field would automatically move away when more dominant horses move to their area, but when ridden, they cant exhibit the natural herd behaviours. Maybe she’s having trouble, because she’s freshly backed, between having a ‘ridden’ mindset, (listen to your riders direction only and ignore herd dynamics) and her usual ‘herd rank’ mindset?

If she’s one of the more dominant mares of the herd, i can understand her behaviour being aggressive too, as she’s used to horses moving away from her, not moving toward her, standing beside her. Etiquette of grazing is dominant mare says where she wants to go, other horses move away from her grass, but follow her general direction, while keeping a ’respectful’ distance.

At 5 being started to ride, unless she‘s had lots of ground handling to get her mind used to ditching herd ethics when humans are around handling her and other horses, she’s likely dominated by herd behaviour and thinking, even while ridden, because she’s freshly backed. It should go if that’s the case. Slowly as she rides out more, with other horses, they’ll likely get closer and closer gradually, and she’ll be fine with it.
Its very early days of being ridden, so its very new for her. Youre a new owner too so she hasnt got full knowledge of your dependability to keep her safe….but with time the confidence in you and being ridden should naturally increase.

Thinking about it, she’s in a new home, new environment, someone is suddenly sitting on her back directing her movements, its all a lot of newness for a relatively young horse to take on. Especially if she’s been mostly left in a herd for 5yrs to mature. When flooded with newness the inevitable explosive reaction can be expected.

She could want physical body space to have the freedom to react if she’s insecure with new surroundings/ off yard hacking, and insecure being ridden. A pony in front and behind could make an insecure horse feel hemmed-in. Add a pony to the side and she has no escape route should she need it. It points to some low confidence, and the strangeness of being newly backed and ridden, which in time, with her learning she’s safe around other ridden horses and can rely on you, will resolve itself.

Just some behavioural mindset thoughts that popped up with your post, if health is A1 with your horse.

Other considerations would be health checks - back/neck and teeth checks if she’s reactive only when ridden, alone or in company, and a sweetheart when unridden. If she’s grumpy in the school/arena work alone aswell i’d suspect health issue. Is she girthy when saddling up? Ulcers possible?

Thank you taking the time to reply so comprehensively. She is a funny little mare so I’ll try and explain a bit more as can see both sides of what you saying. Firstly I don’t think it’s health related as shows no signs of any ulcers and very happy working in the arena, bit nappy or impatient out hacking. When she came out we turned her out in her own field in between other other horses and she has been fine showing no aggression towards over the fence even at feed time when they all fed relatively closely although separated by fencing. One of our other horses has no social skills as can be a bit split personality and can’t be turned out with other horses as he initially wants to make friends but then gets all aggy and will keep pestering them and he will take a pop at her over the fence but she adores him. She is fine on the yard with other horses moving around her. In the arena when ridden she will go for the pony who lives next door and will go to kick him through the fence. She never does this if just out in the field next to him. On one occasion in the arena she stopped trotting to actually reverse to him to kick him really aggressively whilst he was grazing on other side of fence!! At this point we realised it was a problem and she wasn’t just a bit worried. There is no way we could risk taking her out to a show. We swapped the field situations around and put her in with 6 year old Connie who is slightly more dominant, will put his ears back if she moves into his space if he doesn’t want it but never lunges at her or is too dominant but generally they are fine - she shows him absolutely no agression in the field, they happily stand together although she is quite aloof and will graze at the other end of the field on her own happily but at the same time they will eat hay from same pile. Thought ok this is better, she likes him and is happy but then put him next to the arena when she was ridden and she absolutely went to kill him. We also tried hacking out and again when he was by her side even in an open field about 12ft apart she really really hated it - seemed ok but then she switches - it’s so quick and aggressive in that her ears don’t even go back before she swings around to kick out. The gelding knew she wasn’t happy because he was reluctant to walk by her side even with a good distance between them even though she was walking forward ears pricked forward etc - she was clearly saying under breath don’t you dare! But put them back out in field together - all smiles and eating together. Actually writing all that, it resonates with what you have had said about insecurity and it is clear under saddle something is triggering her so sounds like lots of in hand work needs to happen!!

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Mine will rear if one gets too close in talking if we let them smell each other she’s only four again even with her best friends in the feild she is low down in the pecking order and I do think it’s self preservation bless them!

 

[AmyMay]

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[Barton Bounty]

Yip, mine! He likes to see other horses while grazing but cannot abide anyone in his space, he was terrible when we had a big barn stable and he could see next door either side. I had to put rugs over the bars. He would double barrel the walls and partitions if they even looked at him.
out hacking even with his best friend who he adored, he would lunge for him teeth out if he got too close. I just stayed far enough away if I was with others but we like each others company too much now and theres less drama ??

 

[PurBee]

A mate of mine has a horse who is absolutely fine when hacked out with other horses in his herd, but hard work when he's ridden with horses who he doesn't live with (i.e. mine). He doesn't want to be lead horse on a hack, but he is good to hack when he's out with braver members of his own herd. It gets messy when he's with geldings he doesn't live with (he has some respect for mares) because he acts aggressively when they are in front or beside him, but spooky and spinny when he's in the lead. My gelding does not live with him, and we have had to resort to some serious evasive maneuvers. And that's with Fin being a very socially aware horse and giving this guy a wide berth.

I think he has the unfortunate personality traits of being a socially dominant horse but at the same time, a very insecure horse. If I could do one thing with this horse, it would be more groundwork to get him focusing on me more than the other geldings.

Is your mates horse a young horse?

 

[Caol Ila]

Is your mates horse a young horse?

Nope. He’s about 10.

 

[PurBee]

Thank you taking the time to reply so comprehensively. She is a funny little mare so I’ll try and explain a bit more as can see both sides of what you saying. Firstly I don’t think it’s health related as shows no signs of any ulcers and very happy working in the arena, bit nappy or impatient out hacking. When she came out we turned her out in her own field in between other other horses and she has been fine showing no aggression towards over the fence even at feed time when they all fed relatively closely although separated by fencing. One of our other horses has no social skills as can be a bit split personality and can’t be turned out with other horses as he initially wants to make friends but then gets all aggy and will keep pestering them and he will take a pop at her over the fence but she adores him. She is fine on the yard with other horses moving around her. In the arena when ridden she will go for the pony who lives next door and will go to kick him through the fence. She never does this if just out in the field next to him. On one occasion in the arena she stopped trotting to actually reverse to him to kick him really aggressively whilst he was grazing on other side of fence!! At this point we realised it was a problem and she wasn’t just a bit worried. There is no way we could risk taking her out to a show. We swapped the field situations around and put her in with 6 year old Connie who is slightly more dominant, will put his ears back if she moves into his space if he doesn’t want it but never lunges at her or is too dominant but generally they are fine - she shows him absolutely no agression in the field, they happily stand together although she is quite aloof and will graze at the other end of the field on her own happily but at the same time they will eat hay from same pile. Thought ok this is better, she likes him and is happy but then put him next to the arena when she was ridden and she absolutely went to kill him. We also tried hacking out and again when he was by her side even in an open field about 12ft apart she really really hated it - seemed ok but then she switches - it’s so quick and aggressive in that her ears don’t even go back before she swings around to kick out. The gelding knew she wasn’t happy because he was reluctant to walk by her side even with a good distance between them even though she was walking forward ears pricked forward etc - she was clearly saying under breath don’t you dare! But put them back out in field together - all smiles and eating together. Actually writing all that, it resonates with what you have had said about insecurity and it is clear under saddle something is triggering her so sounds like lots of in hand work needs to happen!!

The extra details about her behaviour in the arena is highlighting an insecurity when ridden, mainly due to her being young and green.

If we think how much freedom they have when grazing, or in their stable, they get full autonomy and choice about how to move their body, how much to eat from their haynet, whether to lay down. Despite being domesticated animals, they still have a level of freedom and choice making in their everyday life.
Yet being backed and ridden takes all those natural normal choices away. They move how we direct them. Every part of their body is controlled by us. This initially must be alien to them, even with the most gentlest backing methods. Their ridden mindset is to listen (happily) to the rider. I think with some, developing this calm ridden, happy-to-work mindset takes longer to develop than in others.

Looking at it another way, its a bit like being a teenager and your parent is telling you to do one thing, and your best friend suggesting another thing. This creates tension in the teen as to what to do, and some shouting at either the parent or the friend is inevitable.
The horse has a place in the herd, and a place in the people world, but while newly ridden, where their ’position’ is in this new dynamic, and who to listen to, is difficult for them to know.
They need to learn when ridden there’s no herd dynamic. To drop that aspect of their personality. Ideally! Then we have a horse who rides out with any other horse. Riding school horses are mostly like this.

A bit like a teen and their mate being driven on a journey by their parent - the conversation between the teens isnt going to flow as easy as it does without the parent present. There’s some awkwardness, inhibiting of natural behaviour.
We are the parent and the horses are inhibiting their natural herd behaviours to be ridden. How compliant they are to this change of dynamic is down to mental maturity.
Like the schoolmaster teen years who has seen and done everything, has learnt compliance keeps them safe. The younger horses are on a journey to learn this. Some faster than others, depending on pre-ridden experiences with humans/herds.

From an instinctive flight animal point of view, being ‘controlled’ by another physically, is hitting the ‘red flag’ button in their brains. Only predators ‘grab’ them in such a full body way. Literally, physically we control them when riding, we’re on their back, and they have riding equipment strapped to their barrel and head. All free choice is not theirs anymore while ridden.
The have the inner battle to comply, which they do because of slow training. We aim to train compliance and happiness to work with our asks of them.
When young and green its more likely the compliance is mixed in with some brain red-button push reaction. They do comply with us, but there’s an angst within (get away from this predator, fight!) still possible. This instinct then can be transferred to other horses while ridden.

I’d imagine a horse to be more like this if for 5 years since birth hadnt been handled much except basics, and had always known a herd, then is backed. The young horse who’s had a fair mix of herd and human interaction usually naturally develops the 2 mindsets (herd & human compliance/ridden) before even being broken to ride.

Mine used to bring their herd behaviour around me, when new here, and then mostly by me telling them no, if they were to bicker with each other, they realised eventually when around me, to behave equally. As soon as i leave them to it, they shuffle into their herd dynamic positions, and idiosyncratic behaviours.

More schooling alone, with you, and hacks if you can, alone, getting her to become familiar with just you, and learning about your asks, focusing just on you, building trust in the rider, sounds a good plan.
As her behaviour is so explosive and aggressive, you cant even pre-empt it, to avoid it, as like you say, there’s no warning, it sounds like, for now, nore ridden work alone to build up her confidence snd ridden mentality is best.
Presumable youve tried handling her best you can and directing her, while ridden but the behaviour continues. More exposure to the others while ridden and this reaction, could become a habit, and so alone schooling and riding sounds the way forward, to build her being ridden confidence.

It’s worth getting a trainer out for a session, to see the behaviour of her in the arena to other horses grazing the other side. They can spot the small triggers which might be hard to spot while riding her. There in person they can see everything and have particular suggestions for you to distract this behaviour in her, and particular things to do to correct her, as it happens.

Ask on the forum for trainer recommendations for your area if you dont know of any. I think another pair of eyes on the ground to witness her could help nip the issue in the bud before it becomes habitual.

 

[PurBee]

Nope. He’s about 10.

I agree with your approach to help your friends horse settle:

“I think he has the unfortunate personality traits of being a socially dominant horse but at the same time, a very insecure horse. If I could do one thing with this horse, it would be more groundwork to get him focusing on me more than the other geldings.”

Building up confidence in humans happens naturally usually alongside training. I perceived a large leap of confidence in the lead mare here with me, when i got them safely and happily out of tricky situations. Thats when a connection in their brains says ‘i can really trust you’ - which automatically leads to them ‘thinking’ “ill do as you say”.

The worst times is when they really over-react, stress themselves out, dont give us a chance to help, wont listen due to their over-reaction, then once its over, theyve learnt, “that was stressful and no-one solved it” ergo “i have to be alert and ready to react”