Horse backing livery not going well!

I do not think its cruel to put a horse down with issues that can't be sorted or that may cost too much to sort with long term outcome not favorable. It's kinder and more responsible than selling or giving away. But I would try and do the right thing before just chucking in the towel because its mostly a hassle.

OP we get horses to start and reschool. Sedalin would not have been an option. I would have called to tell you your mare needs looked at as I've done in the past very rarely. It's not fair to the horse. If we need to refund money than so be it. That's life.

Terri
 
STOP! Seriously, this horse is going to seriously harm not only herself (if she hasn't already) but also those around her and working with her.
Firstly, IF you didn't try her, that's fine. I've bought horses without riding them first (sounds quite similar to be honest with you, cheap Thoroughbred, down on it's luck, if I'd tried to get on think it would have fallen over and another cheap Thoroughbred with such massive cellulitis she could barely walk herself much less carry me). The point is if you didn't try her you have severely limited your comeback on this, especially if it's a private sale where the golden rule is always going to be "buyer beware."
Secondly, a "full workup" means different things to different people. Does your vet know the full history of EXACTLY what is going on with this horse? I'm talking about from the moment you bought her, all the avenues you have gone down, all the options you have explored. Any medicine whether human or veterinary is about piecing together separate pieces of evidence and arriving at the most likely conclusion - this is how we make a diagnostic plan. The evidence from the diagnostics then adds in with the symptoms to make our final diagnosis and so even one piece of information missing can seriously skew that. I would be looking specifically at lameness and/or foot problems and an experienced remedial farrier working alongside your vet may prove useful, stomach, liver and kidney problems, mouth problems (an equine dental technician working with your vet may be the best option here), the fit of any and all tack being used (again, a qualified and registered saddler to work alongside you and your vet may be the best option). I would also be looking at psychological issues such as recent poor experiences, the age of the horse and their level of maturity (I have two eight year olds, one acts like she is 58 the other acts like he is 8 months so don't let physical age alone be a deciding factor) and the experience and attitude of those working with her. I would also be investigating her feeding regime (too much, too little, wrong type?), turnout (again how much, who with) and general stable management routine. By the sounds of it this little one is going to take a lot to put right and the multidisciplinary approach may be your best option as each professional can bring their own element to the argument.
As for sedating this horse before they try to get on her I can only assume this person has a death wish. Even the mildest sedation will significantly affect this horse's already unpredictable behaviour and most likely exacerbate the problem. If she is already worried about someone on her back then feeling groggy and sleepy when being approached by a predator (the rider!!) is highly likely to make her behaviour more explosive rather than less. Add in to that fact that her own balance, instincts and self-preservation methods are going to be affected by sedation and you have a mare who is highly likely to try and buck anyway and end up falling over, with the probability of significant injury for her, the person on her, anyone around her and also setting her mind back even further. If this is the approach the yard advocate I'm sorry but I would be looking for someone else to work with her, although to be honest from what you have said in posts so far I would be stopping all her work, bringing her to an area where she can get good grass, turnout and establish a routine and partnership with you and let her have over the winter to mature, get the tests done to find out what's causing the problem and then either deal with the problem (if one is found) or come springtime you can start with a clean slate, get a good instructor who understands you and the horse to help and take things one baby step at a time. It'll be a long road and to be honest and brutal if you can't offer her that commitment then the kindest thing to do for all concerned will be to put the girl to sleep rather than seeing her passed from pillar to post with a VERY uncertain future ahead at best. It is difficult, it is trying and it is heartbreaking at times but if you can give her the chance to chill out and start afresh with a clean bill of health you may find things come easier second time around - one of my mares started out as a complete danger to herself and everyone around her. She now hacks out happily, does local level shows (dressage mainly) and even the odd fun ride without trying to assassinate anyone and anything in her path. Has it been easy? No. Have I thought about giving up? Many times. What swayed it for me was that she injured herself badly in the field and the prospect of losing her made me realise how much I wanted things to work for her and every time she tried my patience after that I thought back to how it felt hearing the words "she might not survive the op." If you feel for the mare and want to make it work you will do, but if you don't be honest with yourself from the get go and do the right thing by her.
 
Great post from corbleu. I also second looking at possible foot and diet issues. Many Tb's do seem to be sugar sensitive and this has a knock on effect throughout their whole bodies but especially their feet and gut. Poor foot balance and or sore feet causes lots of sore bodies too.

The other thing if you take the investigation and then slowly, slowly route is you will learn loads and gather so many new skills. :)
 
we had a horse sent to use for schooling she had been lightly backed by her owner. She was fantastic for about 10 weeks, did some low level, dressage, sj and huntertrails and was aiming to go eventing, when she suddendly started bucking, we had her back checked it was found to be a little sore, she then had some time off with a foot absess. When she came back into work the bucking got progressively but very quickly worst and progressed to the odd rear.

She was taken for a full MOT and found to have spondulousis of the spine!!

It would have been so easy to label her as a "naughty horse"

Please have a full MOT check and xrays!!!
 
amymay said:
Reading further back again, OP, I see the 'accident' you posted about was on 16th Oct, and was pretty catastrophic actually.

Has she been x-rayed around the chest and back area?
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loverly said:
The accident happened on the 15th September. She had an equine Mctimoney sessions, dentist and vet who gave her the all clear to start work.

I very foolishly took the owner by face value. The mare was priced a bit high for a TB but under £1000.

I have questioned a problem that causes the bucking but not one professional has picked anything up.

I have all messages from the old owner, including a message saying she'd take her back once she gets the money together.
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The accident that she had (where she went out of the school and fell down a large bank) was bad enough to break bones. I agree with everyone who suggests a proper veterinary workup.
 
loverly said:
I very foolishly took the owner by face value. The mare was priced a bit high for a TB but under £1000.
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Under £1000 for a backed and ridden away unraced TB is NOT "a bit high" , it's a bargain unless the horse is badly made or badly behaved. The stud fee and foaling and keep until she was 4 would have cost more than that.

The price alone would have raised alarm bells with me.

I agree with everything everyone has said about his mare being in pain. I hope you manage to get her comfortable and happy.
 
Festive Faracat said:
The accident that she had (where she went out of the school and fell down a large bank) was bad enough to break bones. I agree with everyone who suggests a proper veterinary workup.
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Oh I did not realise it was that horse.
OP your horse needs to go straight to the vet for a work up don't let anyone try to get on her again until this has been done .
 
Goldenstar said:
Oh I did not realise it was that horse.
OP your horse needs to go straight to the vet for a work up don't let anyone try to get on her again until this has been done .
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11081291#post11081291

She could easily have cracked a vertabra after that fall and not been lame because of it. Please don't write her off as a naughty horse. If you don't have the funds to sort her out, then PTS. It would be the kindest thing.
 
I have had a horse who had a FULL veterinary work up at the beginning of the year so I know the costs etc.. involved. Unfortunately he had KS and suspensory damage and I made the decision to have him pts.

Yes the accident could easily break bones, but the issue also started before that. She was checked over by a equine dentist (had two wolf teeth removed), Mctimmoney chiro had he back, neck, head etc... and sore spots. A week later I had a vet look over her (not a full lameness work out I admit I should have had done). She has front shoes so her hooves are done every 6-7 weeks. She has boxy front feet with sand cracks but when asked the farrier does not think this is a problem.

Saddles was fitted by a registered saddler, she has very little topline so the saddle is slightly wide (but good wither clearance) to allow the muscles to develop.

Please don't get me wrong - I do not believe the owner caused these issues. I did not try her be contacted a lady who knew the mare and the story tied in with the owner. She was turned away for a couple months before I bought her so no I did not try her.

I spoke to a few people including a vet about giving sedalin and did not seem to have a problem using it for when she is sat on. She can be sat on in the stable with no issue, when you ask her to go forwards is where the issue is, whether it is now a learnt behaviour from pain (or similar) I do not know.

She is on ad-lib hay and A&P Calm and Condition. Turnout daily. She is a star to do in all other respects.

I have forgotton some of the questions (on phone so can't quote) so just ask again and I;ll reply.

I also know that I must sound like a horrible horse abuser, and if that is you opinion then I'm not going to be able to change it and I'm sorry you feel this way - if anyone wants to PM me personally then I am happy to answer any questions.
 
A word of caution on Mctimothy practitioners. They wouldn't know if a horse had a problem if their life depended on it......


Anyway, look forward to hearing the horse is home with you, and what the outcome of the x-rays are.

And as said before, please make sure no one attempts any work with her from this day onwards until you have had her properly investigated.
 
loverly it really sounds to me as if this mare had problems long before you bought her. Do you know who bred her, who backed her and what she has been through before you got her? How old is her passport - I am suspicious that she may be a ruined ex racer who has been re-passported? Is she chipped and does it match a passport that is almost as old as she is?
 
I know of a horse who does exactly what you are describing. He did go to the vets for back, hock etc x rays but they showed nothing. Horse continued to be dangerous, back to the vets for more tests. He had actually fractured his sternum exactly where the girth is. He was fine if you has a loose girth but the second you girthed up or attempTed to mount up he would take of like a rodeo horse
 
cptrayes said:
loverly it really sounds to me as if this mare had problems long before you bought her. Do you know who bred her, who backed her and what she has been through before you got her? How old is her passport - I am suspicious that she may be a ruined ex racer who has been re-passported? Is she chipped and does it match a passport that is almost as old as she is?
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Just got hold of a laptop so can now quote!!

She was bred by a local farmer who had point to pointers. He passed away a year ago (?) and she was bought by one of the grooms. Her passport is registered with Weatherbys and does tie in (all marking etc.. correct). I know who supposedly previously broke her in.
 
Amymay... I do take a bit of offence about your mctimoney comment. That may be the case in your experience but the lady I use is brilliant.
My husbands horse had been under performing and the vets were convinced it was sacroiliac and and huge expense and time had this treated. Horse was still no better, my mctimoney pointed to a part of his back that she felt he was not right in. Had x rays and minor kissing spine was found. Treated and horse improved so not all are useless!
 
charlie76 said:
I know of a horse who does exactly what you are describing. He did go to the vets for back, hock etc x rays but they showed nothing. Horse continued to be dangerous, back to the vets for more tests. He had actually fractured his sternum exactly where the girth is. He was fine if you has a loose girth but the second you girthed up or attempTed to mount up he would take of like a rodeo horse
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That is so sad to imagine how much pain that poor horse would have been in :(.

OP, I know this has been said countless times by lots of other posters but please do get her checked out. I didn't see the video from the other post but the picture of where she fell looked horrific! Just imagine if she has cracked a rib and now has people trying to ride her and telling her off for being naughty even though she could be in unimaginable pain - hence the bucking, rearing, bronking etc.

On the other hand this may not be pain related at all but at least having the x-rays done will put your mind at rest and you'll know it's not due to pain and can move on appropriately from there.
 
loverly said:
Just got hold of a laptop so can now quote!!

She was bred by a local farmer who had point to pointers. He passed away a year ago (?) and she was bought by one of the grooms. Her passport is registered with Weatherbys and does tie in (all marking etc.. correct). I know who supposedly previously broke her in.
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You really are struggling to work this out then :( I hope you get some answers and a favourable outcome soon, it must be a nightmare for you.
 
Poor you and poor horse. I hope you find out what is wrong this horse is definately saying it hurts. I wonder why the horse was out of work before you bought her.
Fingers crossed for you both
 
charlie76 said:
Amymay... I do take a bit of offence about your mctimoney comment. That may be the case in your experience but the lady I use is brilliant.
My husbands horse had been under performing and the vets were convinced it was sacroiliac and and huge expense and time had this treated. Horse was still no better, my mctimoney pointed to a part of his back that she felt he was not right in. Had x rays and minor kissing spine was found. Treated and horse improved so not all are useless!
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I think it's great that you may possibly have found the only one that seems to know their backside from their elbow.
 
loverly said:
I have had a horse who had a FULL veterinary work up at the beginning of the year so I know the costs etc.. involved. Unfortunately he had KS and suspensory damage and I made the decision to have him pts.

I also know that I must sound like a horrible horse abuser, and if that is you opinion then I'm not going to be able to change it and I'm sorry you feel this way - if anyone wants to PM me personally then I am happy to answer any questions.
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I'm sorry to read your top para, this is obviously a really crappy year for you :( I don't know why you think you sound like a horse abuser, you've just had some really bad luck.
 
4 really is a baby. I so hope you can get some clear idea of what is going on and then start her again but nice and gently and slowly. x
 
I'd say the previous (big) accident has either messed her up physically mentally or both. Shell be possibly hurt and almost definitely scared.
I'd be getting vet in for fracture checks and full checks. If nothing comes of it then I'd turn away (if sound and happy) and let her be a horse.
She's a baby who has had a horrific accident and has big problems. Don't overwhelm her any more.

I'd not let someone sedalin to back. I'd by asking why they need it.

After box rest etc you have reasoning but you should never blindly do something which may cause more damage.

I'd also let the instructor go if you haven't already and contact someone sympathetic who will put time in and listen to the horse.
Janetgeorge on here is someone I'd happily send mine too, and I'm sure she will have contacts for people in this situation or closer to you if necessary.

But for now, she's telling you something is seriously wrong :(
 
If after she has been checked out why don't you turn her away. You don't know if she has had a fright in the past that's if they can't find ulcers etc. when you lunge her with tack on does she buck or are ears back? What's she like lunged without tack?
 
amymay said:
I think it's great that you may possibly have found the only one that seems to know their backside from their elbow.
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I use a McTimoney practitioner and she is brilliant. The horses love her. She released masses of tension in daughter's cob in her pelvis on one side and was able to point me to lop sided saddle - probably caused through lop sided pelvis and therefore more muscles built on her opposite shoulder and the saddle continually slipped to the right. I naively just thought she was a round slippy cob, hence the saddle moved.

Vets recommend McTimmoney - it's one of the few alternative practices they do recommend.
 
loverly said:
In the first 10 days she bronked out of the arena and bucked me off as soon as I got in the saddle. I spent 2 months doing a lot of ground work with her then admitted that I couldn't take her any further as I was scared to get on her - but laid across her fine.
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Baby who has been with you less than two weeks. As far as I can work out backed and nothing more, and turned away for a (couple of months?) and then (this from previous thread comments as video been removed) in an arena to ride and has poorly fitted tack and another horse running around and is probably in her head being attacked by the loose roller. Goes over a fence down an 8ft drop.
The comment in that thread says she's lost all trust, so she wasn't unstrusting before?

loverly said:
The mare went to a recommended person to be backed 2 weeks ago but they have asked to sedate her before getting on her today as they haven't been able to get on her without bucking previously. Mares been thoroughly checked over.
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Your mad if you let them sedate her. She will end up worse or they will. It will not have a happy ending.

Who has thoroughly checked the horse? If simply who's backing her, don't trust. I'd be getting my own vet out to her.

I've been completely lied to by her previous owner. The lady whose backing will back me if I want to go the legal route and so will my YM.
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I'd say that the previous owner may well shoot you down if you take the legal route with impeccable video/photos of being ridden and other people saying the same. And the fact that it's a baby with a hell of a lot being thrown at it.

Get the vet in and worry about the horse for now. pts if necessary, but advise old owner first as they may well care about that horse still and think that with time and patience it may return to the former horse.
You bought a 4yo without sitting on it. You took the risk.


I had a littlun set back for a year and still not back to former self yet, physically shaking with people on site and 'dangerous' horse. Blindly bolting in field, put herself over gates and fences and reared over several times. This from about to be backed and not a foot wrong, very friendly with everyone.

This was a result of one bad night being attacked by someone. I don't know the full extent of what happened but know there were no physical markings and that whatever happened was quick - so it was a mental block after that. I know that prior to that she was the best little horse I could've asked for. I knew her siblings and sire and dam and knew her well. She was changed hugely, so there is every possible chance that the owner has not lied to you and that they sent you a lovely horse who is simply now terrified
 
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