Horse becoming dangerous

[planete]

I hesitate to write this because it is going to sound far-fetched but I have heard of stress triggering a latent muscle myopathy. A PSSM2 horse can be asymptomatic until such an event sometimes. Explosive behaviour and bunny hopping made me think of this as a possibility. It might be worth putting her on some PSSM2 appropriate supplements and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

@planete this has crossed my mind but I thought I was clutching at straws

 

[JackFrost]

@Illusion100 the only saving grace is that she was in the stable and landed on a thick straw bed the strangest thing is she will listen if I tell her back up she will stand she will picks all four feet up can leave the stable door open she won’t run out her stable manners were fab until dentist now it’s like having a different horse and it’s my own fault I should of pushed for sedation.

DON'T blame yourself. We should be able to trust professionals to make the right choices for us, sadly they don't always get it right. She is very young and has time to learn what is acceptable behaviour and to bond with you, and as Illusion says, for you to find the right people to identify if there are physical issues. Personally I would not be moving her again if she seems settled, it would only cause more stress. Don't despair. You have seen the lovely horse that she can be.
PS Clutch at lots of straws - one of them will be right.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

@JackFrost Thankyou I am reluctant to move her as she’s bonded with the herd and has another youngster who she seems to always be with and the grass is really good lots of space etc clean quite and calm ideal yard really but she just needs leaving alone other than vet checking I think then I’ll try the horsemanship I can’t find any posts on Cooper can anyone pm me with the concerns as I don’t want to add any more trauma to this poor girl

 

[Polos Mum]

At three I would really really consider turning her away for at least 2 years if she's had lots of stress in her life already to the extent she is flipping over backwards.

Yes its a bit of disruption now but somewhere with professional young stock livery where she can be a member of a herd for a long time in lots of space with shelter if needed might be the making of her.
It sounds like more fiddling now - even from the most experienced of professionals might risk making it worse.

For me the short term upheaval of a yard move would be worth it and I'd plan to leave her almost completely alone until she is 5. The odd feet trim when the rest of the her are done should be manageable and if not it won't kill her
With this new information I would even skip the vets, anything niggly will right itself with 2 years of Dr Green. And anything catastrophic will become self evident.

I am sure not here (with the background your has) but the only one I have had that routinely threw herself backwards (once knocking herself out on a gate) had a brain tumour.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Yes I know what you mean @Polos Mum i am just worried that she will be completely feral after two years and obviously I have to think of her long game as she’ll be with me for life !! If anyone can recommend a young stock livery with very good grazing I’d probably have a look thanks

 

[Polos Mum]

I think I would take feral vs. flipping over in the stable and you probably would have to pay someone to take her away right now I would honestly give her a long break and then see where you are. I've been patiently waiting for my yearling to turn 4.5 before doing anything with him so I know its frustrating but well worth it in the end.

Perhaps look for a share horse to ride in the next couple of years, this time of year people are often looking to give their horses more exercise.

 

[I'm Dun]

I think you need a vet check first. Dentist can accidentally damage the TMJ joint, which maybe causing the rearing. Any pressure on it tends to make them go up and/or back which is what your seeing. If the vet gives the all clear chuck her out on a big acreage with other babies and bring her back at 4.

Just be aware that rearing is an absolute NO for driving so I'd want her brought back into work by a very experienced pro before I let her near harness again.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Vet can’t get out until after Christmas and I’m not risking taking her in the horse box, so she’s just on her usual routine coming in at tea time and back out in the morning untill they have seen her I won’t make any decisions but she’s just getting minimal handling literally in and out rug changes quick groom no hand feeding etc then after Christmas there aloud out 24/7 anyway and there is two other youngsters in the herd so I’ll probably keep her where she is I’ll just do feild checks and farrier when needed and let her mature luckily I have my sisters horse to ride and my friend has even offered to let me take hers on full loan until shy is ready to start work again so I am really lucky that I will still be able to keep my riding fitness and no I definitely would not be putting her in the cart under saddle until the vets seen her as this is buzzard behaviour so sad

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Bizarre sorry!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Does she really need rugs atm? Unless you have clipped (and I can't imagine why you would). I would just leave her alone except for quick check at each end of the day, after all she is telling you that she doesn't like being touched

 

[Illusion100]

Addressing the issue(s) is important.

It is very optimistic to hope chucking a horse in a field for a couple of years will negate learned behaviour and/or potential physical problems.

Throwing a horse with undetermined behavioural/physical issues out to grass for a couple of years may not be helpful.

Particularly if the horse sustains an injury that needs veterinary attention.

Then we have a horse with significant handling issues, likely being iv sedated through necessity, further exacerbating learned behaviour/anxiety.

I feel the handling issues need addressed by a capable professional, any physical issues to be identified and a suitable treatment plan in place, THEN put the horse out to Dr Green for a while.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Addressing the issue(s) is important.

It is very optimistic to hope chucking a horse in a field for a couple of years will negate learned behaviour and/or potential physical problems.

Throwing a horse with undetermined behavioural/physical issues out to grass for a couple of years may not be helpful.

Particularly if the horse sustains an injury that needs veterinary attention.

Then we have a horse with significant handling issues, likely being iv sedated through necessity, further exacerbating learned behaviour/anxiety.

I feel the handling issues need addressed by a capable professional, any physical issues to be identified and a suitable treatment plan in place, THEN put the horse out to Dr Green for a while.

Completely agree! I do think that minimal handling for the sake of the OPs safety at this time is necessary. However I think getting a full workup from a knowledgeable vet should be of utmost priority.
I've never know a horse to rear and flip itself over that did not have a serious health issue. Of the two I have known to do this one had a brain tumor, the other KS.
I am not trying to scare you OP but before writing this off as behavioural issues, I would first explore if there are medical issues going on, as no amount of turnout will correct some of those.
If an issue is found it can be dealt with and then an experienced pro can be brought in to deal with the behaviour.

 

[MissTyc]

Having only just caught up on the whole thread and having had many young gypsy cobs and trotters as well as my own home-bred or purchased weanlings, this situation sounds very familiar. All I am hearing in every post is a totally overwhelming young horse who probably has growing pains, general muscle and joint pains, high stress levels, confusion at expectations, and is now saying STOP. Please listen to you horse. She will NOT go feral if you turn her away, I promise. She won't miss her friends; she will make new friends. The best thing you can give her is a stable herd of mixed ages and some times. Visit her, feed her, groom her, bring a good trainer with you get to know how to connect with her free in the field - all these things are fine and encouraged and I don't think you should ignore her at all, but try to do these things without expectations, using patience and time to help her. Next summer you'll have a 4 year old you won't even recognise.

(I have had horses throw themselves over to escape a fearful situation. I've had others fall accidentally while rearing (those tended not to rear again as they surprised themselves). All these things are normal for a horse who may not have had the best start in life. They are often very quiet until they find the confidence to say NO)

 

[Gloi]

I'd definitely get a vet who is a dental specialist to sedate her and check her teeth out again. It's hard to do a proper job if the horse isn't sedated and is messing about.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

I rang the vets again and told them I needed them out ASAP and there going to come out on Tuesday to see her for all those saying I put too much pressure on her this was not my intention she was advertised as a eight year old (I knew she wasn’t see above) she was a mess i wormed her treated her for lice and got her vaccinated feet done etc and didn’t do anything except basic handling and a bit of ground work whilst her body was healing then we did very light work wish I didn’t now I was just going of professional advice on how best to keep her happy anyway she’s not reared yesterday turning out or bringing in and hasn’t this morning or at rug change time so I don’t know if she’s scared herself when she flipped over at the physio

 

[skint1]

That's so sad for you and the horse, you expected to buy an 8yr old and have ended up with a stressed baby. Really hope it works out for you both.

 

[Annagain]

She might have, or you might be starting to find a path to dealing with the issues she has without making her feel pressured. I think it's obvious you have her best interests at heart and maybe you've just lost your way a little bit on how to achieve that. Everybody will have different ideas of what you should do but I'm sure you'll work out a way between you and her that you're both comfortable with over the winter and by next summer you'll have a lovely 4 year old. I don't have any specific advice but just wanted to wish you and her well.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

@skint1 i knew she wasn’t 8 she still had a little foals tail and baby teeth bless her and thanks everyone I think above poster who said they are quite until they gain confidence is exactly right hopefully with time and space we can learn to trust each other I’ll update once the vets been out all thanks x

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

I just wanted to up date you all, she’s stopped rearing I think the dentist may of hurt her and it’s sorted itself out or I’m not sure if it was that or possibly field dynamics as she’s moved up in the pecking order the past few days something I didn’t expect and seems a lot calmer vet had to cancel they’ll still be checking for ulcers after Christmas but I’m glad the rearing has stopped I have done as little as possible with her she’s a lot more relaxed

 

[Equi]

Glad to hear it. Sometimes they just need a little breather and some distance to reset.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

So vet finally came out she’s lame to a extremely trained eye two physios said she was fine but they think it is her stifle she’s had full bloods done and a through examination and this is what it’s come up as such a shame as she is such a stunning horse and young going to get her x rayed and see what the outcome of it all is this was a different vet she’s been seen twice by two other vets

 

[Annagain]

So vet finally came out she’s lame to a extremely trained eye two physios said she was fine but they think it is her stifle she’s had full bloods done and a through examination and this is what it’s come up as such a shame as she is such a stunning horse and young going to get her x rayed and see what the outcome of it all is this was a different vet she’s been seen twice by two other vets

Well done for getting the vet to see her. Plenty would have just left it once her behaviour started improving. Fingers crossed it's something easily fixable.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Well this is the third vet I’ve had physio x2 plus dentist saddle fitter so I’ll see what turns up on the X-ray poor horse never stood a chance really they said she was probably not showing pain at first due to been wracked about previous home for ‘naughty’ behaviour then has obviously been doing it with me because she feels comfortable to be fair she is a lovley horse if x rays come back bad then she will be put to sleep if she can live comfortably at grass then I’ll have to loan her as a companion as she is ok been left alone in feild if she’s got a haynet or plenty of grass so sad

 

[Leandy]

Well this is the third vet I’ve had physio x2 plus dentist saddle fitter so I’ll see what turns up on the X-ray poor horse never stood a chance really they said she was probably not showing pain at first due to been wracked about previous home for ‘naughty’ behaviour then has obviously been doing it with me because she feels comfortable to be fair she is a lovley horse if x rays come back bad then she will be put to sleep if she can live comfortably at grass then I’ll have to loan her as a companion as she is ok been left alone in feild if she’s got a haynet or plenty of grass so sad

Why are you assuming any pain is incurable? Depending on what x-rays show, and the vets advice actually is, I would just turn her away for 6 months to a year to grow and mature. Taking off the pressure and the work will help her heal both physically and mentally. Then start all over again, as though she had never been broken and see how it goes.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

@Leandy i think she is in pain because of her behaviour that’s why I’ve been trying to find out what it is yes I will take vets advice on how to go forward with it fingers crossed the results are fixable for now

 

[misst]

I have just caught up with this thread. I think in some ways your horse is luckier than some poor horses who are not investigated and are assumed to be naughty or bad tempered.
I do hope the xrays show something that can be treated and that she comes right for you. At least you have tried your best, and if she is PTS though she is young and it will be awful for you, there are worse fates for a young horse with subtle lameness and behaviour problems due to pain x

 

[Leandy]

@Leandy i think she is in pain because of her behaviour that’s why I’ve been trying to find out what it is yes I will take vets advice on how to go forward with it fingers crossed the results are fixable for now

Yes I get that, although I also wouldn't exclude that she is just being extremely defensive due to prior bad treatment. I was just thinking it seemed unduly pessimistic to think you will need to PTS or loan as companion for ever, a 3 year old without having at least tried turning away for a year. Even without any further investigation that is what I would do. You don't even need to think about those decisions at this point. Some young horses just need more time, especially if someone else has already messed them up physically and or mentally. Slow down would be my advice.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

@Leandy thanks I will try slow down my thinking I’m just so worried about her she’s staying we’re she is for now but in the poorly paddocks as I don’t want her out in the hird with the hills etc untill she’s been xrayed who knows maybe rest will heal it but when she stays in due to ice etc she is very stiff!

 

[tiga71]

24/7 turnout in a herd is so good for them if they have been injured or suffered some other trauma.

It has worked so well for the chap I took on. He was 8 and was going to PTS for being dangerous. I took him and he was incredibly anxious, tense all over, muscles rock hard and sore, white patches where his saddle hadn't fit, old SI injury. Even out in the field he looked like a ball of tension.

Turned him out with a mixed herd of 12 in 33 acres. I went and 'worked' with him most days but that was just getting him happy to have me touch him, halter him, lead him round the field, pick up his feet etc. After a year he was like a different horse. I have had him 3 years now and about to get on. He needed a lot of time to realise he was safe and that he could trust me. I could have got on last year but have two others so didn't have the time. But time, being out 24/7 and a herd has helped heal his mind and his body.

So don't give up hoping for a positive outcome.