Horse body language

There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a horse do rest its head on your shoulder if you're comfortable with it and you stay safe.

Why do some people insist on interpreting every other behaviour as signifying dominance?? :confused: (I have an idea it has to do with fear or lack of confidence, but that's another story.) Personally I believe that 'pecking order', while it may be important for horses in some situations - in deciding who has control over scarce resources, as Caol Ila said - is (or should be) irrelevant when it comes to training horses and our other interactions with them. Yes, one can start playing dominance games by emulating the alpha mare, but that can lead to all sorts of problems. In any case, it seems to me to be an unnecessary distraction from the business of training.

Here's a nice article on dominance and personal space on the Epona TV blog:

http://epona.tv/blog/2013/january/spaced-out
 
fburton said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a horse do rest its head on your shoulder if you're comfortable with it and you stay safe.

Why do some people insist on interpreting every other behaviour as signifying dominance?? :confused: (I have an idea it has to do with fear or lack of confidence, but that's another story.) Personally I believe that 'pecking order', while it may be important for horses in some situations - in deciding who has control over scarce resources, as Caol Ila said - is (or should be) irrelevant when it comes to training horses and our other interactions with them. Yes, one can start playing dominance games by emulating the alpha mare, but that can lead to all sorts of problems. In any case, it seems to me to be an unnecessary distraction from the business of training.

Here's a nice article on dominance and personal space on the Epona TV blog:

http://epona.tv/blog/2013/january/spaced-out
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We all know people who love horses but who can't for some reason or the other, usually fear, deal with them.
Just like you meet some people who are socially hopeless.

The amount of money being made by "professionals" appealing to these people is staggering.
And the underlying theme seems to be "the fear is justified and we will tell you how to become the boss and lose the fear".

Snake oil salesmen.
Would be more honest to tell them they are sniverling cowards and go buy a chiwawa.
Too harsh???:eek::D
 
I read the Goodyear quote and though I'd got it all wrong:o I then read ALL the replies and Whew, relief :p when I first met share horse he came up to me and nuzzled my neck..I took it as a greeting and him checking me out. My friend's very large mare will frequently come to me and put her head to my chest or I get a horsey kiss..bit yucky that when she's got a grassy muddy nose but she's a very affectionate lady and has fallen asleep before with her head on my shoulder. Also it's quite usual to see her fast asleep with her head resting on the withers of her field mate although he's the one who moves her around and is in charge. Bit handy having a cob who's shorter than you to use as a pillow :D
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
Snake oil salesmen.
Would be more honest to tell them they are sniverling cowards and go buy a chiwawa.
Too harsh???:eek::D
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A wee bit harsh, yes! I think in many cases people embrace the dominance paradigm because it is part of the package or philosophy ('Natural Horsemanship') they have chosen to follow. Believing that one must be seen by horses as the dominant partner is one way to achieve a degree of confidence that brings success in handling. There is no doubt that it works for many people, and that reinforces belief in the theory. However, it is not the only way that works, and there are other ways of developing confidence.
 
'Ere we go, me favrite nuno oliveira quote, "the horse is then a partner, rather than a slave who is enforced to obey a rigid master by constraint". Another one "give him confidence and show him he has nothing to fear". I wonder if he enjoyed letting his horses rest their heads on his shoulder? I like to think he did.
 
Unlike most on here, I am not a person who likes having horses "cuddle" or be "affectionate"; that's what I have pet dogs and cats for. Most horses in my experience don't like being fussed around with and would just as soon you gave them the ruddy food and b**gerd off and left them alone. I do have a friend who does the whole kissing and scratching the itchy bit stuff, and her horses are the rudest, most unpleasant creatures (also pretty much unrideable too). "Pet" horses are a reasonably recent phenomenon, I prefer to treat mine as working animals with good manners and mutual respect. And they are not "dominated", hit, abused or frightened. They are quiet, relaxed, reliable and obedient, as they are required to be.
 
I love grooming, fussing and cuddling my horses. Always have, some aren't bothered, but of the 12 on our yard they all love being fussed and groomed once you find the right spot.

Sienna adores people, and will hook her nose round a passing strager and encourage them to stop and scratch her shoulders, she also likes being scratched under the chin and will often rest her head on your shoulder in an ecstatic trance.

She and Will sharing a moment..... ( as you can see she is just dead vicious & clearly dominating)

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...0274513516199.322522.535976198&type=3&theater
 
I leave mine in peace to eat, separate issue. A pet horse can be respectful and well behaved, no one told me they were mutually exclusive Cortez.
 
Cortez said:
Unlike most on here, I am not a person who likes having horses "cuddle" or be "affectionate"; that's what I have pet dogs and cats for. Most horses in my experience don't like being fussed around with and would just as soon you gave them the ruddy food and b**gerd off and left them alone. I do have a friend who does the whole kissing and scratching the itchy bit stuff, and her horses are the rudest, most unpleasant creatures (also pretty much unrideable too). "Pet" horses are a reasonably recent phenomenon, I prefer to treat mine as working animals with good manners and mutual respect. And they are not "dominated", hit, abused or frightened. They are quiet, relaxed, reliable and obedient, as they are required to be.
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Not all horses who are cuddled and kissed end up this way. Mine are well-mannered and respectful, but yes, they are much-loved and I show them a great deal of affection. My stallion (who I bred), is just coming under saddle and he is proving the most easy, willing, well-behaved young horse to do. Affection does not always mean bad manners and oafs.
 
When a human puts their hand in the air it can mean all manner of things from telling you to STOP, to a QUESTION or right down to a friendly HELLO. I feel the same about horses (and dogs when they paw you). Yes in some contexts a horse putting its head on your shoulder could mean dominance but it can also mean a friendly tactile gesture. It all depends upon the context in which the behaviour was initiated and executed imo.
 
We have kept small herds of mares for many years and have witnessed the changes in leadershp in different situations. The amount of co-operation between them is astonishing, if you think only in a dominance/sumbission paradigm. We have seen that leadership can change, depending on far more than horses health. We have usually found that the horse who is in charge, is the quiet calm mare, who give confidence and support to the others. The bossy 'domminanat' one, ends up relying on the calm mare in a crisis. I think the quote from Julie Goodnight is bunkum, and the result of observing with a closed mind.
 
Glad I'm not the only one who thought it was extreme. Totally agree about the dog comparison, e.g. dogs learn that when we bare our teeth it is normally a friendly happy thing, and humans don't snarl or show teeth to be aggressive. I am sure horses and dogs are just as capable of making these distinctions.

I do like to maintain a firm position around my haffy especially as they have a tendency to be bargey and rude if allowed to get away with it, but just like with a dominant mare that doesn't mean I stand round barking orders and keeping all beings away from me at all times!

My mare actually did the head resting thing today, she does seem to do it when she is hot and tired or weary of flies! I had already fed them and was passing back through from the village, I went over and stroked her on the shoulder, she rested her head on me and I patted her for a minute, then she wondered off to graze, it was just a friendly gesture I think.

Human body language is so complex, e.g. a person comes and puts their hand on your shoulder, are they comforting you, reassuring you, just being friendly and tactile, is tactile behaviour welcomed from that particular person, e.g. a boss you don't know very well it might be more patronising, deliberately invading your space or even dominating in some way... God its hard enough to read the body language of our own species let alone others :-)
 
I think Cortez's explanation sums it up for me. As well as York G. My dominate mare is quiet and calm. She keeps everyone else calm in scary situations as well. I also have one obnoxious mare who I could never put out with horses lacking confidence. But she is also very good with the youngest member of the herd. Although she lacks nothing in the confidence department. I've seen some amazing things in the working of these mares over the years but will not bore you.

Mine all love to be brushed. As far as lovey dovey stuff. No not really. Some can stand to be cuddled and oggled over but they're horses. I don't have them to be love bugs. But I also don't try to dominate them. Boundries are set but the foremost thing in my mind is always confidence. I want horses to be as confident as they can bee. And that's with people and in herds. A horse can be confident and still be at the bottom of the pecking order. If they lack confidence in a herd situation it can be equally as damaging. We get a few unhandled horses in for starting. If I were to try and dominate them things would not work out so well. They come in very defensive. They do not understand boundries. So it's a process that means in the first few days we ignore certain behaviors others would not agree with. However, they come to hand quickly and boundries are set along the way and we never have issues. Having confidence doesn't mean they challenge you or push your boundries. Simply means they trust what you ask of them. By the way by bad behavior I don't mean kicking or biting. It just means certain things are ignored until they learn. But once they start learning these roadblocks aren't issues. It's hard to explain.

Terri
 
I don't usually fuss over my girl much because she doesn't reciprocate and would rather be eating. The difference was that yesterday she came over to me (invited) and wanted attention so I gave it to her. Had she been focused on grazing she would have had a goodnight pat and I'd have left it at that.
She respects boundaries and I can wander in and out of her stable with the door open and she doesn't try to barge out. Her manners are very good, hence why I feel I can trust her.
 
The only time my mare behaves like this is when she is in season. Usually she is very stand-offish and dislikes human contact but when she is in season she becomes quite affectionate and will sometimes rest her head on my arm.
How does this fit in with the dominance theories?
She also likes to rest her head on the farrier's bum when he is doing her fronts. What does this mean??
 
LeneHorse said:
The only time my mare behaves like this is when she is in season. Usually she is very stand-offish and dislikes human contact but when she is in season she becomes quite affectionate and will sometimes rest her head on my arm.
How does this fit in with the dominance theories?
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Does it need to have anything to do with dominance? I don't think so!
 
fburton said:
Does it need to have anything to do with dominance? I don't think so!
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Sorry I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say I thought it was dominance. I was asking those who earlier posted a theory that head resting was dominant behaviour, to explain why my horse only does it when she is in season.
 
LeneHorse said:
Sorry I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say I thought it was dominance. I was asking those who earlier posted a theory that head resting was dominant behaviour, to explain why my horse only does it when she is in season.
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Apologies for not being clearer - my question/statement was to everyone in general, not to you specifically. :o
 
But surely just like people, some horses respond better to affection and touching than others. I have one guy who is the boss in the field and while an absolute polite gent, he just doesn't do affection/touch at all.

I have another one who while still polite and respectful of your space, absolutely enjoys as much physical interaction as possible, but in a playful and gentle way. I always imagine that if he was a human he'd be the friend who links your arm or throws his arms around your shoulder.
 
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