Horse + bridle = big no!

Once you've eliminated all the physical causes, and it sounds like you have tried to, and every design of bridle that might help, you could try clicker training her through this. I'm working with a horse that has an aversion to the bit itself at the moment, where bitless is not an option for the owner, and I honestly think that clicker is our only hope of success with this one.
 
Beausmate said:
I'd take the browband off completely. If she has enough mane, a chunky plait behind the headpiece should stop it slipping back. Put a couple of plaiting bands around the headpiece if you use a noseband, so the headstrap has somewhere to go. Helps to prevent slipping down the neck too.

Alternatively, get a browband a couple of sizes too big and try that. Leave her forelock underneath for now.

Give it a couple of weeks and see what happens.
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Agree with ditching the browband altogether, we've got one who never wears a browband, she has some understandable issues. Even without a plait the bridle stays put. In six years of no browband it's never been a problem.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well that's not normal either something very odd is going on with this horse .
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This.

The behaviour has come on suddenly and not gotten better in a year, located in the forelock area, and the mare goes MENTAL if you pull the forelock through.

I would be seriously contacting a specialist equine vet, I'd be wanting to have her tested for everything under the sun in her poll, ears, nose, throat and brain.

This is not normal behaviour at all and I does sound like a pain/hypersensativity reactionand I would want to get to the bottom of the behaviour before trying anything else.
 
I suggest you try to hood train a goshawk. Or worse still a small hawk like a sparrowhawk! This is a very similar problem and the tantrum is usually related to a specific part or moment of putting the thing on. But it can be done.

I'd go about it very gently and try to synchronise popping something like a Polo or slice of carot into her mouth as you bring your hand up to her forelock.

Repeat every day slightly increasing the 'ask' as much as she will allow without objecting. If you are persistent, patient, and gentle you will have her begging you to pull her forelock through, but if you are impatient or snatchy, she will resent it the more. The fear is nothing conscious but her natural reaction to some movement she instinctively doesn't like. I'd be gently trying to handle her forelock every time I am passing never failing to pop a 'reward' into her mouth for submitting to being handled. It isn't naughtiness and you don't need an equine vet or her teeth checked or all the usual solutions suggested, just calmness, patience, and repetition.

There's a very bad video here shot single handedly with a chest cam of the type of thing I am suggesting:

[video=youtube_share;IyQ_HHbMn-A]https://youtu.be/IyQ_HHbMn-A[/video]
 
Funny you should say that Dry Rot ... I've trained both Goshawks and Sparrowhawks to the hood. I also apply quite a few of the principals of falconry to the training of horses.
 
Hmmm... Tend to agree that sudden onset sounds like an injury with real, or perhaps now real, past but remembered pain. Have you had head scanned/xrayed?
 
Oh, and for the first time ever... Have you/would you consider hogging? Or just taking off the forelock? Not sure if anyone has suggested this but if you can't get anywhere with physical problem (which really it sounds so much like) and have tried many different tack options then that would be another way of taking the pressure off for a while.
 
I would say keep trying different bits.

Mine used to run to the back of the stable and not be happy being bitted. If she is fine in a headcollar, I may be very wrong but can't really see that the forelock being pulled over the browband would be an issue, unless the browband is too tight and it hurts.

Mine now opens his mouth for his bit - however, I did check the conformation of his mouth - thick tongue, low palate, and finally the Neue Schule Verbindend worked for us. Other lozenged bits didn't - this bit is thin and curved and clearly doesn't hurt and we have used it now for three years. The Bitbank was our best friend for several months!!

Prior to this I also bought him a hugely expensive Dy'on bridle - cutback behind his ears and separate straps for cheek strap, cheek pieces and nose band. But it was the bit that made the difference, not the bridle.
 
cobgoblin said:
Could it be that when the forelock is pulled through she suddenly feels the browband against her skin and this is what she's objecting to? Rather than the forelock is it the skin of the forehead that is sensitive?
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Nope, prior to this incident or period of time, she was having the bridle on and forelock pulled through gently, and the browband was resting against her with skin-to-browband contact. And she wasn't phased in the slightest. Which is why we're so confused!
 
Pinkvboots said:
Have you had a vet or physio check her poll for injury?
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Both. On several occasions, that is. Both have cleared her for injury. She is now having her saddle re-fitted. And will hopefully be going to a rehab centre for a day's worth of sessions (water therapy, back checks/massages, etc) in the hope if there is tension or pinching nerves etc, we crack down on them. :(
 
Goldenstar said:
Well that's not normal either something very odd is going on with this horse .
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She doesn't like bitless. It confuses her. She likes routine, and if you change that, she doesn't like it. She has been in the same bit for multiple years, and is content. Can leave the reins on her neck and she won't do a thing. The same if you kick, she goes into fits of rage, so squeezes and voice clicks only.
 
Damnation said:
This.

The behaviour has come on suddenly and not gotten better in a year, located in the forelock area, and the mare goes MENTAL if you pull the forelock through.

I would be seriously contacting a specialist equine vet, I'd be wanting to have her tested for everything under the sun in her poll, ears, nose, throat and brain.

This is not normal behaviour at all and I does sound like a pain/hypersensativity reactionand I would want to get to the bottom of the behaviour before trying anything else.
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We've had many examinations done. It is bridle related. As without the bridle, and even with a head collar, she is completely the opposite. You can touch the area, fuss, grab ears, poke and prod if you wanted. But where the rbdile is concerned, there's a mental worry. Vets have agreed on this, also.
 
PHP:
Just a thought but is there soreness in her TMJ? Could be referring to the browband/forelock area and the combination of browband and forelock touching could be making it too sore for her to permit.

Could be a trapped nerve that again is only pressured with a browband.

What is she like with headcollar on and doing the same forelock flick as with a bridle? And could you get a lunge headcollar with browband and see if the results are the same?

Have you changed tack cleaning products? Could be a sensitivity?

Could be not the forelock but the additional pressure created by messing with it where the browband sits.
 
Thanks all.

This is DEFINITELY a bridle related issue. We have tried doing the exact same things as we would do with her bridle, when we pop a head collar on. Touching ears/poll/forelock - happy and content and allows you to do so without any resentment, retaliation or fear. Vets also bridled her on multiple occasions and have agreed it is definitely mental fear over anything else. There is no injury, scar, mark and prior to this incident, she has always had a bridle on and forelock pulled through.

I have a full sized bridle currently, with the browband on a few holes too big, and still the same reaction. Her bit is fine; anything different and she resents it (has had the same bit since being broken). We have tried bitless, she becomes confused and gets frustrated, hence the retaliation. But is happy to be ridden with a head collar so long as she has someone on ground she can follow/direct her. But not ideal in the long term, as when out she becomes overly excited and wants to run flat out everywhere possible.

We have no hogged, and not something I'm likely to do or get near her to doing. I did wonder whether when she had some mane pulled (mid crest), she has no turned to resenting this and going up when doing so (had it done one time - never again). So always did wonder if this played a part, but nothing since, and can still handle her mane fine. Also wondered if haynets were an issue as she almost appears to jarr herself when pulling hay out, so have refrained to ground or low leve feeding, without nets, and seems to be doing okay at the moment.

She has had various vets look at her, as well as physio. Her physio came out and worked on her for hours during the entire week after the incident, including individually working on areas such as her back, head and neck, and using all sorts of techniques, including taping sore or reactive areas to work on the following day(s). Still the same.

She has her good days and bad. But she only reacts when the bridle is on, even when there is no bit or reins attached. We have tried multiple styles, brands, and even considering trying a Micklem next as it is designed to avoid sensitive areas. She is now in to have her saddle re-fitted, and will be having her bridle checked over, as well as dental checks, physio and vet checks once again. She has no ear plaque or ear infections (as a possible thought we had). She does have sweet itch, but she is checked daily and this doesn't phase her as much as it used to. We are also undertaking clicker training as another technique.

She is a funny mare, and is head strong in her ways, attitude and temperament. One minute she is fine, the next she's up in the air over something. We are trying everything possible. But vets have advised us on ever ocassion, including physio, she is now retracing mentally, and not because of physical injury/pain. She did have a bad start in life, and I have attempted to ask her breeder/dealer in which sold her, and both have failed to answer. So something could lie back to when she was a foal.
 
Have you tried one of the endurance style bridles that are like a headcollar? You could take take the browband off it, and if needs be unclip the bit until the bridle is on, then slip it in and clip it back on?
 
Have the vets x-rayed her head? My mare came to me with a lump behind one ear (where there is a natural lump at the top of the neck) and the vets had no clue, but she seemed comfortable so we ignored it. Then we think she hit it on the fence and it suddenly got hypersensitive. She was fine to bridle but nearly decked my instructor when she went to mount. The x-ray showed an old injury which had calcified. She had the lump removed in an operation and has been fine since. Yours sounds different, but an x-ray might be a good idea if you haven't already had it done.
 
I sometimes use a Micklem in its bitless configuration and put it on by lowering it over the ears rather than pulling them through which your horse may find preferable. If you want to use a bit with it you can clip one on once it's on the horse. I would also be quite confident about using it without a browband; it doesn't have a traditional throatlash but rather a tighter strap which sits lower and offers more stability and security.
 
pansymouse said:
I sometimes use a Micklem in its bitless configuration and put it on by lowering it over the ears rather than pulling them through which your horse may find preferable. If you want to use a bit with it you can clip one on once it's on the horse. I would also be quite confident about using it without a browband; it doesn't have a traditional throatlash but rather a tighter strap which sits lower and offers more stability and security.
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A few people have recommended the Micklem. And after speaking to a fair few 'users', and hearing some negative stories end well, I think this is definitely our next move. I have tried bitless on multiple occasions, but she is a mare who likes routine and anything different is frowned upon. :/ So doubt I'll get much in that department, but nonetheless, it is worth a try!

Do you find they are better fitting bridles in terms of avoiding sensitive areas? As I was told and read that this was their main 'function'. I notice she rubs her face a lot once the bridle is removed, so wondering whether this is causing an issue.
 
Kat said:
Have you tried taking the browband off the bridle?
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Yes, still the same. She just seems to know. We have tried diverting all ways to sort her forelock/head out when bridled, including distractions, patience, removing then adding parts or completely removing parts. No difference. :/
 
Erm, sorry, confused. If you've tries with no browband at all what were you then doing with the forelock? Surely nothing to pull it through so leave alone?
 
NicoleandRosy said:
I have tried different bridles, I now have bought a bridle with fastenings on both sides just in case "balance" was off. And it was designed by a chiropractor who I spoke to prior to purchase. Still the same. I have tried normal, "thin" bridles, comfort padded bridles, no luck. Head collar is fine to go on. Can fuss with mane/poll when in the field and she'll stand like a lemon. She only has a full cheek snaffle, copper, with a lozenge, so nothing with a single joint that could possibly cause mouth injury. Bit fits perfectly fine.

She has been cleared by every one who has seen her - dentist/vet/physio and ruled as nothing wrong!! :(

Anyone shed some light? I now have a bridle set in the hope the fluffy sheepskin will knock it out somewhat, but very little hope!
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Don't be fooled by double jointed bits, the lower jaw bones are only an inch or too apart and the joints of a double jointed bit can be just over the top of the jaw bone. The bone under the bars is very narrow and sharp, and very sensitive.

Try her in a single jointed, you also need to look at saddle fit, as she may be behaving badly as her saddle doesn't fit. Have you had her jaw Xrayed. I had a mare given to me as she was I rideable with a bit but fine bit less.
 
ThursdayNext said:
Erm, sorry, confused. If you've tries with no browband at all what were you then doing with the forelock? Surely nothing to pull it through so leave alone?
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Yes, obviously.. But I'd rather not risk without a browband completely, as she has the tendency to itch a lot (sweet itch around face) when out riding at any given chance.
 
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