Horse charities - conditions for PTS

Laafet

Laafet

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adventuresinblackandwhite.co.uk
I remember in a magazine one of the equine charities having a list of the conditions that a horse must pass to keep going with him/her. I mean the ability to live a happy life. We have a livery at the yard who loves her horse but he is getting the end of his time and TBH it is now verging on being cruel. He is very lame, even on bute, never lies down in his stable (although that is more to do with her lack of bedding), losing weight (poor feeding regim), looks miserable all the time and is bullied by the other horses. We don't do individual turnout here and come winter he is going to struggle with the mud. All of this has been pointed out in the best possible way. She seems to go to everyone for an opinion then just ignore all the well meaning advice and gets the vet out at least once a week. The vets are a bit at a loss as what to do, but none of them seem to have the guts to say maybe it is time to end it before he gets too uncomfortable. It is such a shame to see. I told her my own story about my lovely boy who I put of his misery before he got the stage that this horse is at and how I was so pleased I did it before the winter, as that was the bad winter we had two years ago. She did ask to move field recently to one closer to the yard, our YM pointed out that if he could not walk in from the field then maybe he is not in a state to be turned out, and also that the field she asked for contains a particularly dominant horse who would bully her horse senseless.
Anyway if anyone can think of the charity conditions for being PTS that would be fab, just to maybe tactfully make her aware.
 
TBH if the vets believe the animal is uncomfortable then im sure they would tell her and advise her to PTS being the kindest thing.

I personally feel you should keep your nose out. She may already be thinking/coming to terms with letting her horse pass on, Try being supportive rather than pointing out what you would do in her situation. Some people dont take kindly to interference, you may get through to her by being a friend.
 
Thanks Cuffey that's the one.
DQ I am keeping my nose out, SHE asks me for advice. Anyway I am dreading the evening when I go up to get my horse in and her horse is down and dying in the gate way, she is the last one up (6pm or later) and as we have a rule that no horse is left on it own, we all invariably end up bringing him in, hence why we notice his condition.
 
Mmmmmmmm, as the "keeper" of the horse, does the YO / YM not have a legal responsibility.
not all vets will say pts, they sometimes leave it up to owners, and this is not a good option for certain owners.
From experience, I can tell you that you may be asked to leave the yard if you interfere [RSPCA/ WHW], this may help the horse concerned but not your own horse.
 
Laafet said:
Thanks Cuffey that's the one.
DQ I am keeping my nose out, SHE asks me for advice. Anyway I am dreading the evening when I go up to get my horse in and her horse is down and dying in the gate way, she is the last one up (6pm or later) and as we have a rule that no horse is left on it own, we all invariably end up bringing him in, hence why we notice his condition.
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She is asking the vet for advice and asking you for advice, this might be because she is unable to bite the bullet and make the correct decision, so she can always self justify that others did not say pts, also some people ask everyone for advice then select the easiest option, and the easiest option may be to do nothing. I know this does not help you or the horse, but is a common "strategy" in my experience.
 
I agree, it is hard and maybe she's just building up to it, my vets told me out right that my mare should be pts which was what I had called them out for so I felt happier that they agreed. Maybe the vets need to be up front with her a bit in a tactfull way
 
Many vets do not advise PTS unless there is clear suffering (Ie its on the floor dying of colic).
My own vet states its not his place to advise when to PTS.....he can only tell you the options available to you.
Laafet I think DQ may be onto something.....say something along the lines of
"oh poor love, his times getting close eh? You know where I am if you need some help/support, I know how hard it will be for you"
 
Laafet said:
I told her my own story about my lovely boy who I put of his misery before he got the stage that this horse is at and how I was so pleased I did it before the winter, as that was the bad winter we had two years ago.
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I think you have done everything you can with this. Personally I'd now back off with the pressure to put to sleep, and make sure she knows there will be support for her when (or if) she is forced to make a difficult decision.

Personally I think the vets need to step up to the mark. Our horse vets are brilliant and let us know all the options, and do say when the time has come, or when the prognosis is not good, and the odds are not in the horses favour. Our small animal vets are terrible. I had a guinea pig that had tumours throughout her body and I was trying to get the vet to take control and giving her the hints that I knew her time had come, and I was sent home with drugs for her. All I wanted was the vet to take control and say yes we can put her out of her misery.

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done right now, just sit on your hands and pick up the pieces afterwards. A difficult decision but a mature one.
 
Trouble4125 said:
I think you have done everything you can with this. Personally I'd now back off with the pressure to put to sleep, and make sure she knows there will be support for her when (or if) she is forced to make a difficult decision.

Personally I think the vets need to step up to the mark. Our horse vets are brilliant and let us know all the options, and do say when the time has come, or when the prognosis is not good, and the odds are not in the horses favour. Our small animal vets are terrible. I had a guinea pig that had tumours throughout her body and I was trying to get the vet to take control and giving her the hints that I knew her time had come, and I was sent home with drugs for her. All I wanted was the vet to take control and say yes we can put her out of her misery.

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done right now, just sit on your hands and pick up the pieces afterwards. A difficult decision but a mature one.
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I had a similar experience with a guinea pig, it had a huge abcess, that I could not get better, about the size of a ping pong ball. I kept taking it back to the vet, and he was quite happy to keep sending me home with it. Next time I will insist. (We do not have any more guinea pigs, but next time I think I am right I will speak out.)

I do think it depends a lot on the individual vet, we have a few vets as clients and one of them is a big believer in the green dream, as he calls it.
 
Really I think the YO needs to sit the owner down and have 'the talk'. Maybe the current yard is just not suitable now the horse is old, or the owner hasn't got the knowledge or resources to cope with an ageing horse.

Would the YO help the owner get a better feeding and management regime? There is no way I would put my oldster out in the scrum of a livery field, it is just not fair and in fact highly dangerous for him.

I feel for the owner and the horse
Sad all round.
 
I once was on a yard where there was a horse in a similar condition with an owner who refused to consider PTS. The horse got worse & worse until the day came when there were no options left. The poor animal was in so much pain that one of the vets simply bit the bullet & said it had had enough, & quite bluntly told the owner that she needed to put the horse first now, rather than keeping it alive but in pain as she had been doing for the past year or more.
 
My friend had a pony on loan from one of the big charities. When it came time for the pony to be PTS her vet refused to deal with it, BECAUSE it was on loan from the charity, he insisted their authorised vet came to look at it, he was too worried about being sued. It caused a great deal or trauma to my friend as she believed the pony waited too long. The charity were more than happy with the pony's treatment and agreed immediately that PTS was correct action. She has since changed vets.
 
Dancing Queen said:
TBH if the vets believe the animal is uncomfortable then im sure they would tell her and advise her to PTS being the kindest thing.
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Sadly this is not the case. I have never yet had a vet tell me it would be best to PTS. Regretably, this results in too many animals going on for far too long. Vets will almost always offer to prolong the animal's life. For example, we had an old dog that was starting to lose the use of her back end. She was a giant breed and already 13 years old. My husband and I made the decision that the day she could not get up without our help, would be the day she would be PTS as she was happy in herself. That day came. She was happy to eat and drink but could not rise at all even with our help, and so we took her in to be PTS. We were adament and told the vet we wanted her to be put down. The vet said 'Are you sure? I could give her a steriod injection. See if that helps?' We declined and the deed was done. However, I think that it was wrong of the vet to offer the steroid. Okay if we had brought her in and asked if there was anything she could do. But not when we knew it was her time and it was only prolonging the inevitable and her quality of life would be very poor.
 
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After recently having had to make 'the decision' about my aged horse, I can quite understand her not wanting to make 'the decision'

it is very difficult to know when and I hope I don't have to have another horse PTS for a long time! I also found it difficult to do things like making arrangements with the fallen stock people (too upset to talk on the phone at the time) and it is also hard to make decisions about the way to PTS and what should be done with the horse afterwards.

The fact that she's asking people's advice means that she knows that PTS is probably not very far off, all you can do is be there to support her - maybe give her the WHW leaflet that explains options, I had been reading that for a few weeks before my horse was PTS and it definitely helped me with making certain choices http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/just_in_case
 
Dancing Queen said:
I personally feel you should keep your nose out. She may already be thinking/coming to terms with letting her horse pass on, Try being supportive rather than pointing out what you would do in her situation. Some people dont take kindly to interference, you may get through to her by being a friend.
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Totally agree with this.
 
RebelRebel said:
Really I think the YO needs to sit the owner down and have 'the talk'. Maybe the current yard is just not suitable now the horse is old, or the owner hasn't got the knowledge or resources to cope with an ageing horse.

Would the YO help the owner get a better feeding and management regime? There is no way I would put my oldster out in the scrum of a livery field, it is just not fair and in fact highly dangerous for him.

I feel for the owner and the horse
Sad all round.
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Believe me, YO has suggested that maybe the yard is not right for the horse in the state he is in, and that maybe he that he would be better PTS or moved to a retirement yard. She does not pussy foot around. She was offered a field on her own when we had one going but turned it down, that field is now occupied.
Wagtail we are not sticking out beaks in, she comes us for advice, everyone on the yard has told her their opinion and some are getting fed up of it as nothing ever comes of the advice. I have been probably the nicest to her, I was the only one to offer to take her out on hacks when he was sounder as she could not manage him on her own. Like I said before I do feel for her and the horse but I think it is the horse that will end up suffering in the end, and whoever finds him when it gets all too much.
 
As the owner of a 30 yr old TB and a 24 yr old native, believe me I know how she feels. She is probably sensitive to peoples comments about her horse - people who haven't seen my horse for a while invariably comment 'oh doesn't he look old'

Yes he bloody does look old, he IS old!! I don't really want to be reminded of it on a regular basis.

And I would really get the hump if someone said 'oh poor love its nearly his time isn't it?' I may be in the wrong here but I would not react well to that sort of comment for a number of reasons.

It is something I think regularly about - my vets are very good, and see him every 6 months for an MOT, they came on monday and said how well he looks so that will do me as a back up opinion. My farrier also says every time he sees him whether he thinks he looks good or has lost a bit of weight. These are the opinions I take most notice of, as it has to be said, most ofthe horse owning friends I know have never had a 30 yr old TB.

However, I do feel that I do EVERYTHING in my old boys best interests, and he does lay down, does roll, does get a paddock to himself overnight so he can eat all he likes without the others bothering him, has been seperated from the idiot welsh who harrasses him, and has been put in with a small gentle friend. So maybe I am doing things differently to the person concerned who sounds like maybe she is not doing the best.

Next time she asks for your advice, i would tactfully give her the advice (he needs more bedding, more/different feed etc) and that if he improves with that then all well and good. If he doesn;t, or if she is not prepared or able to give him the best, she should seriously consider PTS. There are worse things to happen to a horse. Also that she should ask the vet their opinion, if they do not give it freely.
 
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