Horse colour experts please

[Marigold4]

I have a young connemara, sire's family mostly grey, but some dun. Dam is dun but not much recorded breeding history. This young connemara is a lovely dark grey with chestnut flecks and a dark dorsal line. I assumed he would grey out, but some people are saying he's a "grey dun" because of the dorsal line. Is there any way of testing him to see whether he will grey out or stay grey dun?

 

[shortstuff99]

I thought there wasn't any Dun in Connemaras?

But yes there are genetic colour tests I think Animal genetics is the most common company used.

 

[JumpTheMoon1]

Does it matter ? save your money and accept him as he is.You will see in time how his colour turns out.

 

[TheMule]

I agree it's going to be buckskin rather than dun, and almost certainly just going grey. The 'dorsal stripe' is just countershading and will also go with time

 

[shortstuff99]

I will also say if you have pictures this facebook group is very good to upload to and get all the colour info

https://www.facebook.com/groups/EverythingPonies/?ref=share

 

[ester]

Calling them grey dun incorrectly is a Connie thing ?

 

[CMcC]

I thought there wasn't any Dun in Connemaras.

 

[Marigold4]

His dam is a registered ISH called Connaght Calypso out of Gort Nora. I think sometimes connies with unknown breeding are registered as ISH, or maybe he has some Irish Draught in him.

 

[Marigold4]

I thought there wasn't any Dun in Connemaras?

But yes there are genetic colour tests I think Animal genetics is the most common company used.

You are right - they are buckskins but there is a lot of confusion. There's a famous stalions some generations back called "Dun Lorenzo"!

 

[Marigold4]

Does it matter ? save your money and accept him as he is.You will see in time how his colour turns out.

Indeed! I might sell him though and it would be useful to know if he's going to keep his colour as he's very pretty at the mo.

 

[Marigold4]

I will also say if you have pictures this facebook group is very good to upload to and get all the colour info

https://www.facebook.com/groups/EverythingPonies/?ref=share

Thanks. I'll have a look.

 

[Marigold4]

I thought there wasn't any Dun in Connemaras?

But yes there are genetic colour tests I think Animal genetics is the most common company used.

I had a look at their website but was confused by the 3 options for connies.

 

[Cortez]

Calling them grey dun incorrectly is a Connie thing ?

It's the traditional name for the colour. Buckskin is a relatively recent terminology that originates in the USA, and whilst I fully understand the need for a differential between genetic dun and "buckskin", the colour dun as used in Connemaras is from the Irish word "donn" which means, well, dun-coloured.

 

[CMcC]

It's the traditional name for the colour. Buckskin is a relatively recent terminology that originates in the USA, and whilst I fully understand the need for a differential between genetic dun and "buckskin", the colour dun as used in Connemaras is from the Irish word "donn" which means, well, dun-coloured.

thank you @Cortez, am going to learn it by heart so when people tell me dun Connie is actually Buckskin I can quote it!

 

[Cloball]

I don't think you need genetics there is no true dun in Connie's. What the problem is British terminology doesn't match the genetic terminology and the reluctance to adopt the 'american' terms. It sounds like he will definitely grey out. Could you post a pic.

 

[SantaVera]

Grey Dunn, Caramel Wafers. ( Those of a certain age with get this).

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I thought there wasn't any Dun in Connemaras?

But yes there are genetic colour tests I think Animal genetics is the most common company used.

My first mare was a connie cross and she was dun

 

[shortstuff99]

My first mare was a connie cross and she was dun

The cross might have carried dun or was a buckskin genetically.

 

[shortstuff99]

View attachment 97418

Looks buckskin to me?

 

[shortstuff99]

thank you @Cortez, am going to learn it by heart so when people tell me dun Connie is actually Buckskin I can quote it!

But he is genetically buckskin?

 

[Cloball]

The difficulty is the dun Connie's are genetically different to the dun Highlands. The gene that causes the golden dun colour of connies is called cream and is the same one responsible for palomino, cremello, perlino etc. And genetically the correct term is buckskin.

It's important to differentiate to understand bloodlines and the possible and impossible options. For example not at all relevant but there is controversy about one of the thorneyside stallions who is bay being produced by two Chestnuts which is genetically impossible.

Also am I correct in saying that blue eyed cream ponies are not registerable in Connie's which you need to be aware is a possible outcome if you breed two buckskin/dun ponies.

 

[millikins]

This pony is dun, he has a dark "mask", primitive stripes on his legs (his football socks), a clear dorsal stripe running through his mane and into his tail, dark rims on his ears with pale tips and though it isn't clear in this picture a beautiful two tone mane and tail. I think buckskin is lovely too but the two colours are only superficially similar.

 

[Cortez]

The difficulty is the dun Connie's are genetically different to the dun Highlands. The gene that causes the golden dun colour of connies is called cream and is the same one responsible for palomino, cremello, perlino etc. And genetically the correct term is buckskin.

It's important to differentiate to understand bloodlines and the possible and impossible options. For example not at all relevant but there is controversy about one of the thorneyside stallions who is bay being produced by two Chestnuts which is genetically impossible.

Also am I correct in saying that blue eyed cream ponies are not registerable in Connie's which you need to be aware is a possible outcome if you breed two buckskin/dun ponies.

Blue eyed cream Connemara ponies were not registered in the past, but I believe they are now allowed in the studbook again. In Ireland, dun coloured ponies and horses (Irish Draughts are very occasionally dun) are called dun. Whether or not they are genetically buckskin or dun is irrelevant: the colour is known as dun in Ireland and only of relevance if you are breeder/colour genetics nerd.

 

[Cloball]

@Cortex I suppose I just find it odd that, in Irish draughts particularly, you have genetically dun as well as buckskin/dun. Both look different to me but are traditionally called the same name. As long as all colours are registerable it isn't important at all but I suppose if you got a surprise/unexpected colour or you were breeding for a particular colour then it is useful to know. If you look back through a lot of pedigrees with an understanding of genetics some prominent breeding animals may not have the heritage they are purported to have which I would have thought might be important to someone.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It's important to differentiate to understand bloodlines and the possible and impossible options. For example not at all relevant but there is controversy about one of the thorneyside stallions who is bay being produced by two Chestnuts which is genetically impossible.
.

There was a piebald shetland stallion that was prolifically used and people rave about him. His last progeny is 6 or 7yo now. He is genetically impossible but he was born and licenced long before DnA testing became compulsory. Or even a thing. His parentage is solid black for 4 generations with 1 chestnut thrown in. The majority of his 5th generation is black with 1 chestnut and 1 skewbald. There were unregistered coloured colts running around on the farm he was bred at ?

 

[ester]

I deem it relevant, therefore I will continue to use the correct terminology. It can often help determine likely breeding (or as demonstrated above where daddy isn't actually the daddy). I really get the anti buckskin vibe just because we CBA to come up with 2 terms for 2 totally different colours so had to borrow someone else's, even the coat dilution is different.

PS very smart irish (claimed conniex) actually dun pony at the junior eventing champs.
ETA I've dun talking, was nice to see one with a 'dun' name that was correct

 

[Cloball]

I deem it relevant, therefore I will continue to use the correct terminology. It can often help determine likely breeding (or as demonstrated above where daddy isn't actually the daddy). I really get the anti buckskin vibe just because we CBA to come up with 2 terms for 2 totally different colours so had to borrow someone else's, even the coat dilution is different.

PS very smart irish (claimed conniex) actually dun pony at the junior eventing champs.

And where does it leave dunskins and dunalinos... ?
I've Dun Talking? I'd put money on some ID no breeding recorded that I can (briefly) see.

 

[ester]

they can't exist.

 

[dorsetladette]

Blue eyed cream Connemara ponies were not registered in the past, but I believe they are now allowed in the studbook again. In Ireland, dun coloured ponies and horses (Irish Draughts are very occasionally dun) are called dun. Whether or not they are genetically buckskin or dun is irrelevant: the colour is known as dun in Ireland and only of relevance if you are breeder/colour genetics nerd.

When I was a child. Anything born with a blue eye or pink skin wasn't registered and would be sold at weaning through the auctions as no one wanted to put there name to them. those traits were classed as a defect and a note would be made not to cross that mare and stallion again.

A dun was a dun with lots of different shades, the same as a bay is a bay with lots of different shades. Or a chestnut is a chestnut. IMHO they still fit in to those colour spectrums, but we now know more about the genetics behind it.

 

[Cortez]

And where does it leave dunskins and dunalinos... ?
I've Dun Talking? I'd put money on some ID no breeding recorded that I can (briefly) see.

"Buckskinalinos? Buckskinskins? I've Buckskin Talking? Doesn't have quite the same ring does it.....