Horse dancing in Pakistan

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cp1980

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I was talking to a friendly taxi driver, taking me from the BHDTA national carriage driving championships at Catton Hall back to Burton station today...

and he was telling me about the horse dacing competitions they have in Pakistan. It takes at least a year for a professional trainer to make a horse dance to the minimum standard; and often they are employed on a full-time basis, to the point where the owner provides the trainer with lodging.

Most horses that do this are mares (most easily trained), although when stallions are able to be trained, they are the showiest dancers.

Apparently, when trained they just strut their funky stuff whenever they hear drums.

So I had a look on YouTube and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMF2um0QPYo
 
something doesn`t look right there.has that poor horse got something tight around it`s legs.it`s making unnateral movements and i think the horse looks unhappy.
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I think it looks quite cool, just because its different and part of a different culture doesn`t mean its wrong.

Good few more clips on youtube.

If you look at the 5 minute clip entitled "Hors dance at my Brothers wedding in Pakistan" you see the handle stroking the horses head at numerous.
 
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I think it looks quite cool, just because its different and part of a different culture doesn`t mean its wrong.

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You can excuse a lot of things with that. Honour killings, stoning adulterers, etc. Either something is right or it is wrong, and some societies in this country or abroad are simply not up to scratch. There is a minimum requirement to be considered civilised, and not all meets it.

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"Hors dance at my Brothers wedding in Pakistan"

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Hors or whores lol?
 
Whoops, I meant horse!.

So you think there is never any grey?, oh to live in such a clear cut world! with distinguishable goodies and baddies.
 
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So you think there is never any grey?, oh to live in such a clear cut world! with distinguishable goodies and baddies.

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If something doesn't feel quite right, it probably isn't.

There is nothing racist in thinking that the behaviours of another society are disgusting and at a lesser stage of development. We were probably no better (and indeed worse) in the middle ages.
 
Sorry, Tharg; that was HORRIBLE. Those horses were very distressed; they weren't being hurt but they certainly expected pain.

Yet their owners seemed to be genuinely fond of them and were stroking them and so on; and the horses weren't afraid of the handlers, only of the touch of anything on their legs and bellies when they knew they were going to be required to dance. I would imagine the stick used to train them would be painfully hot.

Horses transcend cultures; a distressed horse is a distressed horse whatever the culture and when its as obvious as this you really ought to be able to recognise it. What amazes me is how you can actually ask "What doesn't feel right to you?" If you can't see that something's not right here then I'm sorry, but you've no business to be around horses.

The only politically correct thing I'd say here is that its sometimes harder to recognise things that are wrong with your own horse culture (like that dressage pony on an earlier post), where familiarity blinds you. But that really doesn't make this OK.
 
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The horses look distressed, resentful , unhappy, angry.....

I have the impression that if the handlers were to remove the hobbles the horses would 'dance' on them until they were mashed to a pulp
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To be honest, I have no idea how they are trained.

I am worried we are all being a bit condisending by assuming it is through a cruel method. We don't know that for definate do we?

And then to draw comparisons with honour killings?? Please!

Further research is needed before making such accusations.
 
For example, I found this:

Horse Dance, which by the way is not only performed on the weddings but also during many local & folk exhibitions, is mainly a feature/part of Punjabi Culture. Especially in rural areas of Punjab horse dance is considered as essential part of celebrations (Punjab is one of the four provinces of Pakistan) (Same is being replaced by Camel Dance in Sindi & Balochi culture).

The horses trained for this purpose are not thoroughbreds, usually a local breeds are trained which are, when compared with thoroughbreds, are smaller in size. Mostly White or Black horses are preferred to be trained for dance. (Just because of being more beautiful looking). Most people prefer to train mares rather than horses. (Am not really sure why is that, will have to ask my father or uncles
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).

Dance is usually performed on the beat of a Drum (called “Dholl” in indo Pak), use of clarinet and “Ghungroos” (large number of small bells tied together) is also very common. Ghungroos, mostly in Red Color are also tied to the front legs of the horse, (which by the way produce a very beautiful rhythmic sound and it seems that even the animal is enjoying his ability to create this sound)

The horse is handled by his handler while dancing and is not ridden by anyone at that time. (People anyways avoid riding the horses trained to dance.)

As far as training of the horses is concerned; well there are no steal plates in their legs
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. Nothing unnatural is introduced in their body. Use of harsh methods? Well Harsh Training methods is a relative term, and it really depends what you consider as harsh and what is acceptable for you.

My personal opinion in this regard is that no harsh training techniques are used to train the dancing horses. During initial stages horse whips are used to give commands, which of course cause pain, but don’t make a "crack” and is as necessary as in case of training of other such animals.

Later on, during the dance whips (made of ropes) are used to make a loud sharp sound, to provide direction and command to animals.

Hope this helps
 
What fantastic little horses!!
Obviously without knowing their training techniques I cant judge whether it's 'cruel' or not. I suspect not, the horses look fine to me
The grey has a piaffe most GP riders aspire to acheive (wiggling bottom and all
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Hmm it's a tricky one this. Whilst I'm not happy with the fact the horses appear tense and nervous for whatever reason, there are plenty of things we do in modern day horse culture which still go very much against the grain.

Some of the 'classically' trained Iberian horses you see filmed in Spain and Portugal don't look much different to this, and what about that metal noseband they use with a serrated underside? Can't remember what it's called but it looks to have nothing to do with 'submission, harmony and confidence in the rider'.

What about the whole corrupted business of measuring horses and ponies for showing/showjumping and the ways in which people make sure horses get under the measuring stick. Eg overtrimming a horses feet so's it's footsore for a week or two but what the heck, it's now a small hack etc?

Leaving a horse in it's box tied up in side reins to force it into an outline?

All these things still go on behind closed doors and as long as we allow them to continue that makes us no better than the people in this video.
 
If you notice, the video is sped up, when showing the black horse (Just look at the people behind scurrying around to see that). Which makes it looks a lot worse.
 
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Hmm it's a tricky one this. Whilst I'm not happy with the fact the horses appear tense and nervous for whatever reason, there are plenty of things we do in modern day horse culture which still go very much against the grain.

Some of the 'classically' trained Iberian horses you see filmed in Spain and Portugal don't look much different to this, and what about that metal noseband they use with a serrated underside? Can't remember what it's called but it looks to have nothing to do with 'submission, harmony and confidence in the rider'.

What about the whole corrupted business of measuring horses and ponies for showing/showjumping and the ways in which people make sure horses get under the measuring stick. Eg overtrimming a horses feet so's it's footsore for a week or two but what the heck, it's now a small hack etc?

Leaving a horse in it's box tied up in side reins to force it into an outline?

All these things still go on behind closed doors and as long as we allow them to continue that makes us no better than the people in this video.

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Very valid and well thought out reply. I agree with pretty much all of your post. I really didn't like this particular clip though, as couldn't help but wonder what on earth had the horse had to go through to do that. (Reminded me a bit of an over Parelli'd horse on speed TBH).
 
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I think it is horrible and certainly don't believe the training methods to be 'humane'.

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How do you know what the training methods are? Sounds similar to a piaffe stick which certainly isnt cruel but is regularly used here to create an elevated piaffe and to train airs above the ground
 
Just watching them. To me those are not happy horses, they remind me of the dancing bears. I don't know what they are but as said before I do not believe that they are humane.
 
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I think it is horrible and certainly don't believe the training methods to be 'humane'.

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how can you say that?

of course, ALL dressage horses in the western world are trained humanely!!! PMSL.......
 
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I think it is horrible and certainly don't believe the training methods to be 'humane'.

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how can you say that?

of course, ALL dressage horses in the western world are trained humanely!!! PMSL.......

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Yes, with their Rolkur and nice big jabby spurs (oh and they have to suffer the indignity of being ridden by the campest men on the planet
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I think it is horrible and certainly don't believe the training methods to be 'humane'.

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how can you say that?

of course, ALL dressage horses in the western world are trained humanely!!! PMSL.......

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Yes, with their Rolkur and nice big jabby spurs (oh and they have to suffer the indignity of being ridden by the campest men on the planet
smirk.gif
)

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First of all the horses aren't wearing hobbles, they are bells and tassels tied around their legs.

I've seen horses doing Parelli that look worse than these.

What is the difference between this and the Spanish Riding School? Cleaner horses and posher uniforms?
 
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It's my opinion and I have a right to have it thank you very much.

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Indeed you do....same as me

just check things out before hand..as is clearly seen, they aren't hobbles....hobbles tie legs together...they are decorative bells and cymbols..

if you pop along to a parelli demo..you'll see similar moves...but on a far bigger commercial scale...which people buy into..not condemn....
 
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