Horse dancing in Pakistan

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I think it is horrible and certainly don't believe the training methods to be 'humane'.

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how can you say that?

of course, ALL dressage horses in the western world are trained humanely!!! PMSL.......

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Yes, with their Rolkur and nice big jabby spurs (oh and they have to suffer the indignity of being ridden by the campest men on the planet
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well said all the above but as for me i didnt care for the look of it but anyone can see the horses are fat and well brushed. clearly not `terrified `or else they would be panicking and lose thir balance because of the hobbles. Anyone who uses hobbles on a regular basis will know that the horse learns quick smart to stand still or fall over so this video does indicate to me a degree of training and i dont see any more evidence of cruelty than would be displayed by anyone training their horse to do work in the pillars. carrying a long stick does not mean the horse is being thrashed with it.
 
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well said all the above but as for me i didnt care for the look of it but anyone can see the horses are fat and well brushed. clearly not `terrified `or else they would be panicking and lose thir balance because of the hobbles. Anyone who uses hobbles on a regular basis will know that the horse learns quick smart to stand still or fall over so this video does indicate to me a degree of training and i dont see any more evidence of cruelty than would be displayed by anyone training their horse to do work in the pillars. carrying a long stick does not mean the horse is being thrashed with it.

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There are NOT any HOBBLES on the horses - please watch the videos properly!!!!
 
I didn't see a fat horse on the clip I watched and the grey at the brother's wedding indeed even had ribs clearly showing. Not the definition of a fat horse to me I'm afraid.
 
I personally didnt like the clip, I think the horses look stressed out, but im not saying all of our western methods are better, all cultures have their faults.
I dont like seeing people riding in draw reins who havent a clue how to use them either, and i didnt like this clip, but the horses look in good condition.
 
Its true that our own horse culture isn't blameless, and thats brought home to me by seeing people on here saying in such a reasonable way,

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How do you know what the training methods are? Sounds similar to a piaffe stick which certainly isnt cruel but is regularly used here to create an elevated piaffe and to train airs above the ground

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When you see a horse that so apprehensive - terrified, even- throughout its performance of what is going to be done to it, by definition the training methods are cruel. These horses are afraid of being hurt. Thats not to say you could't teach a horse to do this humanely; pehaps this is the crap end of a noble tradition; again, like the dressage pony lunged with its neck bent double.

But you, as a horseman, ought first and foremost be able to recognise the horse's distress, whether its down to your own training methods or somebody elses's.

The horse's behaviour is a measure of how cruel the training methods were.

Are you honestly saying, if you saw this in a dressage arena, or if you sent your horse to a trainer, got it back, and its face went rigid with fear every time you touched its legs, you wouldn't be competent to make some judgement on the training methods?

I suspect that what we are seeing here is some sort of misplaced Political Correctness; a reluctance to judge another culture in case we seem patronising. I think, though, that this does an ancient and advanced horse culture an injustice, and the horse an even bigger one, and I can't think that what we've seen is the measure of horsemanship in India and Pakistan or should be accepted as such.

Basically it leaves me cold, but not as cold as people on here looking at those stressed out horses and saying "Ah, but we DON'T KNOW the methods were cruel." Sorry. We DO.
 
these horses may well have been terrorised in to this performannce tho i think not and though i dont care for the appearance of it, i dont think we can damn it just because we dont agree. and as for the person who said these horses were not as i said fat and well brushed well, maybe not fat as we would see it but have you seen the avaerage horse in any of these countries. emaciated does not often come close to describing it. as for the hobble thing, diesel, i am callling them that as i dont know what they are but thhey are not just decoations as you can clearly see at one point some sort os line joining two legs together. and i wasnt criticing their use just pointing oout that horses who are really hobbled dont do much moving about.
 
It was me who questionned the term 'fat' Lucretia and whilst not being pedantic and also having an understanding of the general condition of horses in poorer third world countries such as Pakistan I think to use the term fat was not correct.
Perhaps a better term would have been 'looked well' or in 'fair to good condition' but if those horses were deemed as being fat by bodyscoring techniques I would dread to think what a 'thin' horse would look like?
Caroline
 
You can hardly say its natural to have a saddle and person on a horses back.

TBH I`m not surprised by the knee jerk reaction posts to this thread. Its a pity that its being condemned when no one even knows the training method and mistake decorations for hobbles.
 
I thought they were wearing hobbles, but if you look carefully its not, its probably is a bracelet of bells, isn't that what the human dancers wear ?
 
this one isnt wearing anything on its legs at all and looks quite ok to me. there has beeen horse training in these countries for thousands of years well before we westerners `civilised`them, i think these horses are alot better off than some.
i think people get irate by the situation the horse is in as much as anything. i posted a link to a horse in a bull fight which is not something i am keen on but the beauty of the horse, the rider and their total harmony was so fantastic i thought people would apprieciate the equine aspect. some did but i got some quite unpleasant PM's from the blood sport lobby who couldnt seem to understand that to perform like that the horse must be more than just willing. it loved its rider and its job and i couldnt say that these pakistani horse werent the same.
 
Interesting - first thing that I noticed was that the horses seemed to be in good condition - i think I'd like to understand more about the training rather than condemn it as being cruel without knowing all the facts.....
 
Lucretia, did you mean the ridden horse? If so I agree, that seemed very different from the other clips; I enjoyed watching that and would like to know more about it.

I posted that really to show Tharg that a "knee-jerk" reaction of disgust to the other horse "dancing" stuff seen earlier was a reaction against something unpleasant and not in the best traditions of the culture he / she seems to be taking it to represent.
 
I have been to such countries and seen horses being worked that are skinny, working hours and hours a day with no food or water, these horses probably work a couple of hours a day tops- just as our dressage horses do. better looked after as they have to be for wedding and festivities- and in my opinion much better looked after than their 'working' counterparts, who i am sure are much more regularly beaten. I do not know what training methods go on, but I do not feel I have the knowledge to make a fair and well judged opinion. Although it may not look 'nice' to us, i feel these horses actually have a far far better life than many in that part of the world for sure.
 
I don't like it either and having watched a few more clips on you tube regarding the practice of horse dancing I really don't think the horses look comfortable.
In a few of the videos the horses are not wearing hobbles but either have thin straps around their forelegs or else have reins wrapped around them, presumably for control to stop the horses from rearing too high or kicking out.
However it does not look comfortable to the horse to me and certainly in the video with the youngster ( think it is Dance of Fakhr e Dehra Karyal/karbal( cannot read my writing lol) part 1?) the horse actually looks apprehensive and worried
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If anyone wants to view true horsemanship where the horses do not look fearful or uncomfortable then check out this website and look at the pictures and view the videos.
The stallion Alborozo is stunning imo
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web page Kilimanjaro Ranch

Caroline
 
well that just looked totally wierd to me.
i suppose some of our dressage may look odd to them..?!
personally i didnt like it i saw tension and alot of worried expressions in all the horses and that half lying down/collapsing thing the black one was doing was just really odd!i know it was sped up but even in real time it would look really pointless..?
personally i didnt like it, the amount of movement and type of movement looked totally unnatural to me- but then ive not been brought in that culture i suppose it wouldnt!
ive seen my horses do bits of bouncing about similar but not in such a contorted 'stepping on hot coals' sort of way.i cant imgaine what their joints mjst be like by the time they get into their teens with all that manic leaping about.
 
It would be interesting to see how it is achieved. It was certainly uncomfortable to watch, whereas any dressage training I've ever seen doesn't make me cringe....

I think it was easy to mistake what is ACTUALLY round the horses legs... it looked dodgy initially, I don't think there's any need to get personal with people who don't like the look of it. We're all here for our love of horses.
 
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